FFP charges?

[LynxRed]

They've released the punishment at the start of a two week break as well, so it gives fans and players time to "simmer down" before the next match. The only way we get out of this is to rage about it and put that down on the pitch.

 

[toms]

I haven't noticed Manchester City and Chelsea fans feeling bad about their clubs breaking the rules or as some here say cheating. Their reputation is ok! I see no problem for the fans, players, managers and management of the "big 6" to be worried about their constant support from the referees over the years!

Tom, I have agreed with your opinion many times and shown it, but right now you are whining like some little girl!

I’m just annoyed that something that was in our gift to avoid has come to pass.

It’s not the most glorious day in the club’s history. Will be highly unfair if other clubs breaches are not addressed .

Does anyone know when Everton’s decision is coming through? If they appeal and win a nasty situation could arise if we don’t appeal

 

[jbacsta]

We'll really struggle to get 3 wins

We only need to win one more game than Luton ( unless the other two deadbeats go on a run) .

 

[Will.NFFC]

Erm, you've slept on WHO exactly?

He said ‘it’, meaning you… durrr

 

[Feco]

Well I guess yesterdays report threw my last weeks theory out of the window.
I thought I had considered most things, I didn’t contemplate that the club I have supported all over Europe for the last 40+ years had been ‘economical’ with the truth.

The rules are ass, and we have been on the receiving end of some very dodgy on field decisions since arriving in the EPL, which is now a closed shop rather than a competition. None of that was unknown. Why tempt fate?

The thing that really sticks in my throat is signings like JJ Shelvey have significantly contributed to this self made problem. That is unforgivable.

Time to get their (players, management and owners) heads down and put some effort in.
There is talent in the squad, and we have winnable matches.
A few now need to show they are fit to be involved with our club.

 

[Strett]

We'll really struggle to get 3 wins

I genuinely think that Everton are doomed.

As I suggested yesterday, the will get -3 for a breach; this is now a given.
In the report yesterday, they state that breaching more than once is viewed as aggravated and may lead to further points off, and finally there are rumours circulating that Everton's 22/23 accounts show a breach in excess of £40m, which using Forest as a precedent, invoke another -3 points. Have Everton cooperated to gain some Brownie-points back?

Everton, in my opinion are looking at at least 6 points deduction.

Furthermore there is the ongoing issue with 777 who Everton owe over £150m to and as yet have still not been given approval by the Premier League to take over, and the more you read about 777, I can see why. Everton could conceivably enter admin, if 777 are denied.

Having said all that, if we can't better Luton by 2 points over the next 9 games, then we don't deserve to be members of the EPL.

 

[BlackGold]

If a player is sold - say Sangare - where if not sold we pay his transfer fee over the length of his contract…30m / 5 years = 6m p.a…
…and we sold him for £20m.
Is the primary use of the 20m settling our debt with PSV, or do our initial payment terms remain (6m) and the rest is profit for the club?

 

[TMFwanstead]

Toms, we didn't cheat.

This whole thing is not about cheating. Everton didn't cheat, Chelsea haven't cheated, Man City didn't cheat.

Breaking a rule and cheating are very different things and it's very unfair for you to conflate the two.

We got the financials wrong, clearly. We can disagree with the rule, we can argue it's unjust but we didn't do enough to comply with the rule. But we did not cheat

I agree with Pope on this. Reading the report this is down to incompetence and getting ourselves into a position which we couldn’t get out.

Yeah

Looks to me like we are in line for a other deduction next season unless we can make about £30m extra profit before 30th June.

That's very hard to do when clubs know you have to.

And then we'll have absolutely no room

I've slept on it, and I just can't see where the points to survive are going to come from. I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like relegation. If they release a video of them laughing and joking again, I'll honestly cry. There appears to be no real desire to win. I said a couple of weeks ago that there's so little demand of each other. There's no battle. I feel sorry for Nuno as he's been dealt a hand to play at the wrong time, they left it too long with Cooper, and should have either stuck with him, or sacked him 10 games earlier, because taking over at Afcon with a point deduction looming almost feels untenable, and he doesn't strike me as a manager that works on inspiring but rather skill and game plan, and this squad needs someone to put their arms around them.

I think we will have to let them know we have their backs and drag them over the line. 5 wins are needed in my opinion.

The next 4 games are vital. The winnable 3:home games in particular. I think 7 points are essential. Overall I do think 33 points will do the Job

 

[toms]

If a player is sold - say Sangare - where if not sold we pay his transfer fee over the length of his contract…30m / 5 years = 6m p.a…
…and we sold him for £20m.
Is the primary use of the 20m settling our debt with PSV, or do our initial payment terms remain (6m) and the rest is profit for the club?

Would have thought the former…

 

[Strett]

If a player is sold - say Sangare - where if not sold we pay his transfer fee over the length of his contract…30m / 5 years = 6m p.a…
…and we sold him for £20m.
Is the primary use of the 20m settling our debt with PSV, or do our initial payment terms remain (6m) and the rest is profit for the club?

I think you are conflating PSR calcs, amortisation calcs and transfer fees.
As far as I understand it...

The debt to PSV is one element. This only has an impact on cashflow. I don't know the terms but lets assume it was £10m straight away, then 2 more payments of £10m on each anniversary. This remains, even if we sell the player. We may choose to settle the debt with any fee received, but that is not a given. Forest may choose not to. The sale of Sanagaé may also, have similar terms to us, for example.

The value of Sangaré was £30m as of August 2023, so as of August 2024, his value will be £6m less (1 year amortisation) so £24m. If we sold him for £20m that's down as a loss on the P&L accounting.

PSR calculations are he has cost us £6m in the 2023/24 accounts, if we sell him, then the he is removed from PSR for the following season. This I am not 100% on, as the PSR rules are not too easily read/understood.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

I genuinely think that Everton are doomed.

As I suggested yesterday, the will get -3 for a breach; this is now a given.
In the report yesterday, they state that breaching more than once is viewed as aggravated and may lead to further points off, and finally there are rumours circulating that Everton's 22/23 accounts show a breach in excess of £40m, which using Forest as a precedent, invoke another -3 points. Have Everton cooperated to gain some Brownie-points back?

Everton, in my opinion are looking at at least 6 points deduction.

Furthermore there is the ongoing issue with 777 who Everton owe over £150m to and as yet have still not been given approval by the Premier League to take over, and the more you read about 777, I can see why. Everton could conceivably enter admin, if 777 are denied.

Having said all that, if we can't better Luton by 2 points over the next 9 games, then we don't deserve to be members of the EPL.

If Everton get more points deducted for this season then we will next season. It's not something we want to hope for

 

[Hucknall Red]

If Everton get more points deducted for this season then we will next season. It's not something we want to hope for

Surely we are better off if Everton get docked 6-8 points and we survive, we can then sell just enough to be within the rules and maybe a bit of wiggle room to buy a couple players.

 

[radfordinlondon]

football bill announced today. independent regulator on its way. not sure if labour have endorsed this.

 

[radfordinlondon]

we need another miracle chaps.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Surely we are better off if Everton get docked 6-8 points and we survive, we can then sell just enough to be within the rules and maybe a bit of wiggle room to buy a couple players.

We weren't able to sell enough before 30th June this year?

We didn't even get a proper offer?

 

[Polly 433]

We spent another £120m!

You can chalk £15m already because Chris Wood is not amortized at all.

So even if every player was on a 4 year contract, that's £30 +15 for wood, so £45m. Plus we paid off Shelvey, that's 5m at least.

About £166m last season; again, assume a 4 year contract on everyone, that's £41m this season as well

So, back of a fag packet calculation, you've got £90m in amortised costs plus £67m wages

I make that about £160m in costs before you pay any non playing staff or anything else.

PL money is only about £120m.

We've made about 70, but that only gives us a theoretical 30m to play with on P&S.

And that ignores the fact that we were £27m over the limit in our promotion season and about 20m over the 35m limit last season. So that's £47m. Unfortunately, the only season where we made money (21/22) disappears from our rolling average.

Which gives us, coincidentally, a figure of being about £17m deficit to find.

Back of a fag packet stuff but its easy to see how quickly the money goes

We need to hope Everton get off on some double jeopardy judgement

I agree with Pope on this. Reading the report this is down to incompetence and getting ourselves into a position which we couldn’t get out.


The next 4 games are vital. The winnable 3:home games in particular. I think 7 points are essential. Overall I do think 33 points will do the Job

Having slept on the problem, I feel the club, in a difficult spot last winter, gambled and lost. The injury list in midfield and attack hit us hard and in an effort to stay up gambled that they could recover it. Clubs were not buying and so little movement and the gamble gave us safety at a price. Since the charge they have been economical with the truth. Some poor purchasing decisions have come back to bite us.

The rules were stacked against us and there was little to play with and circumstances and poor decisions made it worse.

We have got six points deduction with 2 being given back for cooperation. The crucial point made in report was situation was known but we carried on spending, knowingly breaking the limit.

I can’t see how Everton get less than 6 points. The PL asked for 8 which is now standard. Thus Everton will get six, perhaps 8.

Can the Appeal Board add the two points? Can we put in an appeal, see what Everton get, by which time we will have played the Palace and Fulham games and depending on outcome of each, drop the case, therefore not risking two points? Do we take our medicine knowing we and every other team, will be starting the next season knowing we have BJ money and Mangala money in the bank to ensure compliance next season before rules change. The league will be stronger next season whilst we will have little room for addition only consolidation.

Finally how do teams like Wolves and Palace deal with this and next season. Both probably feel vindicated that they were correct in their strategy. Wolves to sell some stars to balance and Palace not to buy to replace Zaha.

Forest did knowingly break the rules. I don’t feel mitigation has been factored in at all. 2 points or suspended would feel more appropriate.

We appeal, with the hope that mitigation being a factor we can get a reduction but it will only be one or to points not all four. We run the danger we get two added but don’t feel it is a true appeal process if that is the case. We wait and see what the Everton case brings as far as changes in table and with a fair wind we can drop the appeal or at least review in a months time.

 

[Strett]

If Everton get more points deducted for this season then we will next season. It's not something we want to hope for

Unless we sell some jewels before 30th June to keep within PSR.

 

[Hucknall Red]

Unless we sell some jewels before 30th June to keep within PSR.

That's what I was saying but as Pooey said not sure if the sales count in the correct accounting year.

 

[Strett]

Having slept on the problem, I feel the club, in a difficult spot last winter, gambled and lost. The injury list in midfield and attack hit us hard and in an effort to stay up gambled that they could recover it. Clubs were not buying and so little movement and the gamble gave us safety at a price. Since the charge they have been economical with the truth. Some poor purchasing decisions have come back to bite us.

The rules were stacked against us and there was little to play with and circumstances and poor decisions made it worse.

We have got six points deduction with 2 being given back for cooperation. The crucial point made in report was situation was known but we carried on spending, knowingly breaking the limit.

I can’t see how Everton get less than 6 points. The PL asked for 8 which is now standard. Thus Everton will get six, perhaps 8.

Can the Appeal Board add the two points? Can we put in an appeal, see what Everton get, by which time we will have played the Palace and Fulham games and depending on outcome of each, drop the case, therefore not risking two points? Do we take our medicine knowing we and every other team, will be starting the next season knowing we have BJ money and Mangala money in the bank to ensure compliance next season before rules change. The league will be stronger next season whilst we will have little room for addition only consolidation.

Finally how do teams like Wolves and Palace deal with this and next season. Both probably feel vindicated that they were correct in their strategy. Wolves to sell some stars to balance and Palace not to buy to replace Zaha.

Forest did knowingly break the rules. I don’t feel mitigation has been factored in at all. 2 points or suspended would feel more appropriate.

We appeal, with the hope that mitigation being a factor we can get a reduction but it will only be one or to points not all four. We run the danger we get two added but don’t feel it is a true appeal process if that is the case. We wait and see what the Everton case brings as far as changes in table and with a fair wind we can drop the appeal or at least review in a months time.

The following statement from the commission as reported in The Athletic, IMO has us not really warranting an appeal...

Atletico Madrid made a £42.9million bid for Johnson via an email entitled “Offer” on June 30, but stated it was dependent on the Spanish club selling an unnamed player first. Forest rejected the offer, emailing back to say they wanted £55.8m. But then, for reasons unexplained, it was never followed up.

So why did Forest, in the commission’s findings, do “little to market (Johnson) proactively”?

Ross Wilson, Forest’s chief football officer, did speak to several English clubs, including Manchester United, Manchester City, Tottenham Hotspur, Brentford, Crystal Palace and Aston Villa. None, however, made an official bid until Brentford came in with a £32.5m offer (July 21), followed by one of £35m (July 24) and, finally, £40m (August 28).

All were turned down and Johnson’s move to Tottenham only went through late in the evening on September 1 — transfer deadline day. They were, the commission was told, “sailing close to the wind”. Forest called it a “near miss” or “golden mitigation” but that two-month period was critical in terms of the club being punished. The new season was underway and Johnson played in their first four games of it, including a 2-1 Premier League win against Sheffield United. It was, according to the commission, a clear and unfair sporting advantage.

 

[toms]

That's what I was saying but as Pooey said not sure if the sales count in the correct accounting year.

That’s a shite typo