The VAR / Refereeing Thread | Page 27 | Vital Football

The VAR / Refereeing Thread

Great article on VAR by Matt Dickinson in The Times today.


Uefa shows Premier League how it’s done with sparing use of VAR​


"I have had plenty of cause in the past nine years to think back to the white Transit van which once sat in a car park outside Feyenoord’s De Kuip stadium. I was the first journalist allowed inside that vehicle, and into football’s brave new world.

“This nondescript van may end up in a museum one day given that it houses potentially one of the most notable changes to football in a century,” I wrote, and that seems to have been no exaggeration. After all, this was the birthplace of VAR.

I wondered at the time if I should use the term “revolution”. “Some people call it that,” Gijs de Jong, operations director of the Royal Dutch Football Association (KNVB), told me. “We just think it’s common sense.”

Common sense. It can be elusive in football — the game draws us in until it makes us wildly irrational — but I felt it, contentedly, watching Arsenal versus Bayern Munich on Tuesday evening.

I saw the implementation of the VAR that I was promised right from the start, which seemed so simple and appealing. As it was explained, the system was there to correct big, avoidable errors. The video assistant had 15 seconds to rewatch an incident a few times and decide, quickly, if this was an undeniable, game-changing blunder.

Yes, there were many questions which could not be answered that day but it was a basic tool to be used sparingly and swiftly to avoid those injustices that anyone and everyone would think idiotic to overlook. More fool us, as I have written many times, if we could not make this work.

And if I have had a few occasions of doubt since, or wondered if my faith and judgment were awry, to watch that Arsenal game in all its heat, profile and high stakes felt like a welcome reminder of why I have kept belief, and how VAR should work if we all just stay sensible. Was the referee right or wrong? Wrong question.

When Harry Kane’s elbow caught Gabriel in the face after he had glanced backwards, the referee saw it and gave a yellow card. For VAR to overturn that decision, he would need to be very sure about replacing one subjective call about recklessness and intent with another.

The referee will have told the VAR what he saw and his belief that it merited a booking. If the VAR believed that sounded like an acceptable on-field decision — perhaps persuaded, for example, that Gabriel stooped a little — then so be it.

You may think Kane was very lucky. Another referee might have gone straight to red, and VAR would not have intervened then either. But that is the point. A decision was made which we can debate but, in short, was not categorically wrong either way.

The same when Bukayo Saka collided with Manuel Neuer. Maybe you saw a penalty. At least one experienced referee I know believes most officials would have given it. But Glenn Nyberg felt Saka threw his leg out, and so did many others — and VAR recognised that with different interpretations available, the role is to allow the referee’s version to stand unless there is an unarguable case otherwise.

The implementation of the light-touch VAR championed by Uefa made for a better game. It makes for more robust, confident officials. It made sense of a system that has become so needlessly overcomplicated and vexatious in England.

If this had been the Premier League, the outcome would probably have been different. There would have been a much higher likelihood of a VAR intervention because we have lost our way, mislaid the “clear and obvious” threshold. We all know it. The game’s administrators acknowledge it. As the league’s chief football officer Tony Scholes said in February, there are “too many checks” which are “taking too long”.

We incessantly question the officials and they question themselves and all of us end up questioning everything — be that managers, pundits, media and fans — to a point of paralysis by analysis. We end up painfully pouring over a debatable block at a corner which is not remotely the fault of VAR but our own meddling.

Where does that come from? Probably all of us. Managers with overblown expectations that they can influence decisions; media giving exposure to ludicrously self-serving criticisms of officials; TV shows endlessly pulling apart every tiny incident. All this against the backdrop of a deep culture of dissent in football that has run unchecked for decades; a society that has never been quicker, or more vocal, in the rush to judge.

A reset is required, which sounds rather daunting in those circumstances but should not be so difficult. It will have to come from those who run the game, not only informing officials of the new approach but all of us. Communication has never been VAR’s strong point. PGMOL, particularly under Howard Webb, has made strides but the failure to explain, particularly inside stadiums, has been sorely lacking.

The news that from next season the Premier League will introduce semi-automated offside, and communicate those graphics more clearly, is one step forward. But the biggest change is to back off this pursuit of perfection.

No one ever said VAR would, or should, be a panacea. Danny Makkelie was the video assistant referee on the day I visited the Dutch pilot. “As long as the media and the public understand that it’s not 100 per cent waterproof,” he said. “There will still be arguments. This is only for black-and-white cases but we can solve many problems.”

We can solve many but not all — and certainly should not go venturing unnecessarily into grey areas. Constantly citing that decisions are 96 per cent accurate with VAR, compared with about 85 per cent in the Championship, perhaps gives an unhelpful impression of a pursuit of perfection.

We need to back off, as those incidents at the Emirates Stadium this week showed when it was enough to have the application of one experienced referee’s opinion supported by an invisible safety net.

Right or wrong? No, just credible, sensible. Even in a game which thrives on wild drama and unruly emotions, maybe one day it could catch on."
I love the expression “Paralysis by Analysis”

Good post , even used the term “ common sense “ which made me laugh .

The sooner they get back to refereeing , the better .
 

Nottingham Forest question VAR official in Everton defeat and 'consider options'​

Last updated on 1 hour ago1 hour ago.From the section Nottm Forest

Nottingham Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo said he was disappointed with the officials' failure to award his side a penalty on three separate occasions against Everton
Nottingham Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo said he was "disappointed" with the officials' failure to award his side a penalty on three separate occasions against Everton
Nottingham Forest say they are "considering their options" over "extremely poor" refereeing decisions following their 2-0 defeat at Everton.
The club said they had "warned" the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMOL) that "the VAR is a Luton fan but they didn't change him".
"Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept," the club said on X.
"Our patience has been tested multiple times."
Although they did not name the official, the video assistant referee was Stuart Attwell.
Nottingham Forest issued the highly critical post on the social network at 15:42 BST, about five minutes after full-time in the match at Goodison Park - which left the club one point above the relegation zone.
Questioned about the club's post, Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo said it was "not important if he [Atwell] is a fan of another club".
He added: "I share the feeling of the club because is it not only this game. It is has been a while that we have had poor decisions going against us. It is not an excuse but we are not happy with the work of the referees."
BBC Sport is contacting referees' board the PGMOL for comment, and understands the Football Association is aware of the post and investigating.

'I don't understand the decision' - what happened to anger Forest?​

All three penalty claims centred on incidents involving Everton's veteran ex-England defender Young.
They felt he caught the back of Gio Reyna's boot in attempting to make a tackle when the game was goalless.
Then, late in the first half, after Everton had taken the lead, a Callum Hudson-Odoi cross struck Young on the arm.
Ashley Young tries to block Callum Hudson-Odoi's cross in the Premier League match between Everton and Nottingham Forest
Nottingham Forest's handball claim against Ashley Young happened just before half-time, with Everton leading 1-0
The third incident happened after the interval, with the Toffees still 1-0 ahead, as Young tangled with Hudson-Odoi in the area but the officials ruled he had won the ball cleanly.
"I don't understand the reason and the decision of [referee] Anthony Taylor and VAR Stuart Attwell, because I see the images," Nuno told Sky Sports.
"It is hard to take. There is a penalty on Gio Reyna, it's a kick, don't tell me that is not contact. It's a penalty, then a handball, then the situation of the incident with Callum.
"So it's understandable that we react like this as a club because we want to get things right. We don't want bad referees. We want good decisions.
"OK if we lost the game today and there were no incidents, we take it."
 

Nottingham Forest question VAR official in Everton defeat and 'consider options'​

Last updated on 1 hour ago1 hour ago.From the section Nottm Forest

Nottingham Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo said he was disappointed with the officials' failure to award his side a penalty on three separate occasions against Everton' failure to award his side a penalty on three separate occasions against Everton
Nottingham Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo said he was "disappointed" with the officials' failure to award his side a penalty on three separate occasions against Everton
Nottingham Forest say they are "considering their options" over "extremely poor" refereeing decisions following their 2-0 defeat at Everton.
The club said they had "warned" the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMOL) that "the VAR is a Luton fan but they didn't change him".
"Three extremely poor decisions - three penalties not given - which we simply cannot accept," the club said on X.
"Our patience has been tested multiple times."
Although they did not name the official, the video assistant referee was Stuart Attwell.
Nottingham Forest issued the highly critical post on the social network at 15:42 BST, about five minutes after full-time in the match at Goodison Park - which left the club one point above the relegation zone.
Questioned about the club's post, Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo said it was "not important if he [Atwell] is a fan of another club".
He added: "I share the feeling of the club because is it not only this game. It is has been a while that we have had poor decisions going against us. It is not an excuse but we are not happy with the work of the referees."
BBC Sport is contacting referees' board the PGMOL for comment, and understands the Football Association is aware of the post and investigating.

'I don't understand the decision' - what happened to anger Forest?​

All three penalty claims centred on incidents involving Everton's veteran ex-England defender Young.
They felt he caught the back of Gio Reyna's boot in attempting to make a tackle when the game was goalless.
Then, late in the first half, after Everton had taken the lead, a Callum Hudson-Odoi cross struck Young on the arm.
Ashley Young tries to block Callum Hudson-Odoi's cross in the Premier League match between Everton and Nottingham Forest's cross in the Premier League match between Everton and Nottingham Forest
Nottingham Forest's handball claim against Ashley Young happened just before half-time, with Everton leading 1-0
The third incident happened after the interval, with the Toffees still 1-0 ahead, as Young tangled with Hudson-Odoi in the area but the officials ruled he had won the ball cleanly.
"I don't understand the reason and the decision of [referee] Anthony Taylor and VAR Stuart Attwell, because I see the images," Nuno told Sky Sports.
"It is hard to take. There is a penalty on Gio Reyna, it's a kick, don't tell me that is not contact. It's a penalty, then a handball, then the situation of the incident with Callum.
"So it's understandable that we react like this as a club because we want to get things right. We don't want bad referees. We want good decisions.
"OK if we lost the game today and there were no incidents, we take it."

Anthony Tailor and Stuart Attwell......it doesn't actually get worse than that pairing. Perhaps Paul Tierney has a shout to be involved in the Toxic Official league table as well. I'd be walking all 3 out the building with their P45's at the end of the season. Enough is enough with this old guard of Prem referees.

Howard Webb will lose his own job unless he is ruthless in the summer with these 3.
 
Forest have legitimate reasons to query the referee and VAR decisions in their game at Everton. There were 3 actions which could have resulted in penalties for them, the first two were subjective and would probably have been given in 50% of similar cases this season, the third however was a clear error by the referee. Taylor clearly indicated that he thought Young had played the ball when a simple replay showed he had not, VAR should have informed him of his mistake and at the very minimum advised him to review it on the pitch side screen but didn't.
 
It was patently obvious that the Coventry “winner “‘was not offside .

There isn’t a player in the world that can gain an advantage by having his toe one inch further forward than a defender . They were never going to be given that goal in a million years .

VAR is absurd , it is bringing the game into disrepute
 
It was patently obvious that the Coventry “winner “‘was not offside .

There isn’t a player in the world that can gain an advantage by having his toe one inch further forward than a defender . They were never going to be given that goal in a million years .

VAR is absurd , it is bringing the game into disrepute
I bet it wouldn't have been ruled out if it were United that had scored it!
 
Something has got to happen now .

Forest have said that an official was in a position to influence a game which has bearings on the team he supports . Allegedly . And having said that before the game , it puts a lot of questions that need to be answered .

I’m looking forward to how this pans out .
 
Anthony Tailor and Stuart Attwell......it doesn't actually get worse than that pairing. Perhaps Paul Tierney has a shout to be involved in the Toxic Official league table as well. I'd be walking all 3 out the building with their P45's at the end of the season. Enough is enough with this old guard of Prem referees.

Howard Webb will lose his own job unless he is ruthless in the summer with these 3.
I would add Michael Oliver to that list as well.

His handling of the City / Chavs semi final was abysmal.

I would urge Howard Webb to publish the referee assessment after every game .

That would be interesting.
And then allow them , no, put it in their contract , as they do with managers / head coaches ( or in the case of Chelsea , Head of Performance Officer !!!!!) that they have to face the press after a game .

Pochettino said he was not a coach when talking to the press at Wembley , we are Head of Performances , he said .
 
Offside ? Of course he was , kin goal hanger !

View attachment 72794
How come the red line is three times wider than the blue line .

This was never go to go in favour of Coventry .
https://www.thefa.com/football-rule... player is in an,and the second-last opponent

A player is not in an offside position if level with the:
  • second-last opponent or
  • last two opponents
For me, this is the most frustrating part. The laws state that level is onside, but VAR cannot cater for level.

Now imagine if it wasn't offside if the blue and red lines were less than 50 cm apart i.e. a body width. The game would be so much better.
 
This one is crazy as well - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68869328

Barcelona coach Xavi was furious after VAR officials could not prove that Yamal's effort had crossed the line.

"It's a disgrace," said Xavi, complaining that the goalline technology used in other top flights including the Premier League is not available in La Liga.

"If we want to be the best league in the world we have to advance in this sense, you have to put in the technology."

Barcelona goalkeeper Marc-Andre ter Stegen agreed with his coach.

"It's shameful for football, I don't have the words," said the Germany international.

"There's so much money in this world and there's no money for what's most important."


I just couldn't imagine that goal line tech wouldn't be in place for a RM vs Barca game.
 
This one is crazy as well - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68869328

Barcelona coach Xavi was furious after VAR officials could not prove that Yamal's effort had crossed the line.

"It's a disgrace," said Xavi, complaining that the goalline technology used in other top flights including the Premier League is not available in La Liga.

"If we want to be the best league in the world we have to advance in this sense, you have to put in the technology."

Barcelona goalkeeper Marc-Andre ter Stegen agreed with his coach.

"It's shameful for football, I don't have the words," said the Germany international.

"There's so much money in this world and there's no money for what's most important."


I just couldn't imagine that goal line tech wouldn't be in place for a RM vs Barca game.
Frankly, I never knew that they didn't have it and was gob smacked when they said they didn't. Madness. The one technology innovation that is 100% fool-proof!
 
Anthony Tailor and Stuart Attwell......it doesn't actually get worse than that pairing. Perhaps Paul Tierney has a shout to be involved in the Toxic Official league table as well. I'd be walking all 3 out the building with their P45's at the end of the season. Enough is enough with this old guard of Prem referees.

Howard Webb will lose his own job unless he is ruthless in the summer with these 3.
So bloody true there muttley, it is infuriating to say the least, majority of our Refs n Var officials are utter SHITE, destroying what was once a beautiful game, both to play and watch.

A new broom should sweep clean, oh so bloody simple!
 
Decisions Decisions, simple if you are a big noted Team you get all the decisions, simple really!

Faves must win at all costs!

It seems the whole fcuking broken system is against the smaller/minnow clubs, everyone can see that.
 
So bloody true there muttley, it is infuriating to say the least, majority of our Refs n Var officials are utter SHITE, destroying what was once a beautiful game, both to play and watch.

A new broom should sweep clean, oh so bloody simple!

In business they call it the third/third/third rule. A third are competent enough. A third can be nurtured to be competent enough. You need to clear out and replace the final third who will never make it.

Unfortunately, with PGMOL Webb started with 10/20/70. He's coming up to round 2 of culling this summer of the original 70% that included Dean, Moss, Mason etc

Have you noticed how the new referees in the PL aren't getting as much stick as the old guard? It's still the usual suspects.
 
In business they call it the third/third/third rule. A third are competent enough. A third can be nurtured to be competent enough. You need to clear out and replace the final third who will never make it.

Unfortunately, with PGMOL Webb started with 10/20/70. He's coming up to round 2 of culling this summer of the original 70% that included Dean, Moss, Mason etc

Have you noticed how the new referees in the PL aren't getting as much stick as the old guard? It's still the usual suspects.

The new referees haven't had a chance to make a mistake that sticks with them. As I said earlier, I wish someone would do a 10 year analysis of all the calls made to see where a good benchmark truly lies and if there is any bias.

How would you like to work in an error prone environment where you do a decent job, but when you do make an error the national press highlight it to everyone.


No wonder we don't have decent refs, much like we don't have decent people becoming politicians.
 
The new referees haven't had a chance to make a mistake that sticks with them. As I said earlier, I wish someone would do a 10 year analysis of all the calls made to see where a good benchmark truly lies and if there is any bias.

How would you like to work in an error prone environment where you do a decent job, but when you do make an error the national press highlight it to everyone.


No wonder we don't have decent refs, much like we don't have decent people becoming politicians.
You'll find many ref bias analysis/studies on line, and as you might expect, they are really all inconclusive but do show weighting to 'big' teams, 'home' teams in decision-making, so pretty much as you expect - the conclusions in many of the studies was this was bought about by media/social pressures and is in fact 'only human'...and on and on...

But I agree you can't educate, inform and improve these brave souls when with the slightest error they are ripped to shreds - what is most important to me is that not once has anyone been able prove that this is due to 'crooked' decision-making.