FFP charges?

[seasider red]

I’m sat here in greggs having my morning latte & needed something to take my mind off how much my wife will be spending shopping so got the wondering about a couple of things
1 would it be a good idea if it was always the same 3 people on the “independent “commission as that would surely give a more consistent interpretation of the rules & mitigation instead of having different people each time
2 how can clubs generate more spending money under the new%age of turnover rules& the answer has to be diversification lots of other industries have done it successfully a club like Forest can only generate a finite income without a bigger ground so they need to diversify in to other money making streams don’t know if this falls within the new rules or not
It’s just the ramblings of a old codger with nothing to do & wanting to take my mind off other things

 

[jbacsta]

I’m sat here in greggs having my morning latte & needed something to take my mind off how much my wife will be spending shopping so got the wondering about a couple of things
1 would it be a good idea if it was always the same 3 people on the “independent “commission as that would surely give a more consistent interpretation of the rules & mitigation instead of having different people each time
2 how can clubs generate more spending money under the new%age of turnover rules& the answer has to be diversification lots of other industries have done it successfully a club like Forest can only generate a finitse income without a bigger ground so they need to diversify in to other money making streams don’t know if this falls within the new rules or not
It’s just the ramblings of a old codger with nothing to do & wanting to take my mind off other things

Something very similar to your musings actually crossed my mind as well. How about just for a start buying shares in EMs shipping empire? Got to be a better bet than putting a few more seats in the ground.

 

[seasider red]

Something very similar to your musings actually crossed my mind as well. How about just for a start buying shares in EMs shipping empire? Got to be a better bet than putting a few more seats in the ground.

Or better still EM gifting us some shares in his other holdings that was precisely where I was coming from. When you think about it Man U have this massive turnover but also a massive debt which doesn’t seem to be taken into account which suggests you could build up debt acquiring other business interests to boost revenue I’m not clever enough from a business point of view to think that one through to their but as a concept seems like a goer

 

[Geedo61]

Seems very clear now that we shouldn't have played him at the start of the season. That's aggravating.

However, that aside, since we had already missed the deadline there's not much difference between the start and end of the window in terms of sporting advantage. Their ruling is all about how it looks to other clubs rather than the essence of p&s. That's the only weakness I can see in their argument.


No idea why we spent so long talking about financial adjustments after the deadline. Always seemed inapplicable to me.

I disagree with the comment in the Athletic (was it?)
We have been found guilty for 2022/2023. BJ played in the 2023/2024 season against Sheffield Utd - we got no sporting advantage in the period we have been found guilty for due to him playing in August

 

[toms]

No it isn’t one of the punishments

So to invent a punishment that is likely to hurt the team you claim to support does seem a bit bizarre to me

Fuck em, let’s just get enough points to stay up and move on

PVH I didnt-please see Cornish's comments above. Cornish raised it not me. Thanks

PS Last thing I would ever want is relegation and I trust Cornish doesnt either

 

[Geedo61]

Forest have projected their losses around the 12-17m mark.

Couple that to the existing 96m loss for season 2022-2023, they estimate our debt to stand at, minimum, 108m.

Given our allowable debt, for the 3-year cycle, is 83m, we're (at best) 25m away.

Presumably Forest havent forgotten all of the transfers you flag, then we are definitely going to breach 2023/2024 without a big sale prior to 30 June.

The 96m is the 3 year rolling total.
You have to take whatever we lost in year 1 off - probably £13m as that was the limit and replace with the 12m-17m projected - so in effect we remain around 96m against the 83m allowed.

 

[Geedo61]

I’m sat here in greggs having my morning latte & needed something to take my mind off how much my wife will be spending shopping so got the wondering about a couple of things
1 would it be a good idea if it was always the same 3 people on the “independent “commission as that would surely give a more consistent interpretation of the rules & mitigation instead of having different people each time
2 how can clubs generate more spending money under the new%age of turnover rules& the answer has to be diversification lots of other industries have done it successfully a club like Forest can only generate a finite income without a bigger ground so they need to diversify in to other money making streams don’t know if this falls within the new rules or not
It’s just the ramblings of a old codger with nothing to do & wanting to take my mind off other things

We could take a leaf out of man City's book.
EM could get some of his Greek mates to buy 6m shirts for €100 each and give them away free with a bag of crisps

 

[Geedo61]

Its what puzzled me when the IC praised forest's cost cutting, when our last season in the champs showed a near 46m loss and a wage bill around 52m?!

22/23 - 52m (first season in prem)
23/24 - 12m?

110m total?

Doesn't that number now include the £20m bonus's for promotion - which were originally excluded

 

[BlackGold]

Doesn't that number now include the £20m bonus's for promotion - which were originally excluded

yeah, page 26 of the filing, 20.9m in bonuses.
unfortunately, IC didn't allow the bonus to be exempt.

5.8 On 31 March 2023, Forest provided the Premier League with its PSR Calculation based on aprojected league position of 12th at the end of the 2022/23 season. This PSR Calculation alsoincluded the Covid Add-Back of £12,178,000 for FY22. Forest was also looking to add-backthe promotion costs of c. £20m that it had incurred (largely in the form of contractual bonusesto its playing squad and the coaches) when it secured promotion to the Premier League.

5.9 On 2 June 2023, the Premier League informed Forest, in relation to its PSR Calculation for the2022/23 season, inter alia that: it would only allow a Covid Add-Back of £2.5m for FY22, notthe entire £12,178,000 claimed and it would not allow Forest to claim any allowances for costslinked to promotion from the EFL Championship.

 

[Hucknall Red]

That’s a shite typo

Was bad. Apologies Pope

 

[Strett]

Call me cynical, but a couple of issues regarding any appeal have just struck me.
Any appeal would be a disaster as far as the EPL and the integrity of their competition is involved; so they want to avoid an appeal, by us or Everton, at any cost.
With that in mind, think about the following...

It's now coming out, via certain media outlets, that any appeal may see our points increased, so dissuasion is drip-fed from the EPL via the media to Forest.

Everton will be given a sanction, but given points back to appease them to dissuade any appeal, see above for example of this.

Everton's hearing is outside of our appeals window, so no collusion possible regarding an agreement with Everton (we both appeal).

So, my earlier thinking that Everton will get a 6 points is now, due to my conspiracy theory, off the table.

The scheming b**********#######rds

 

[mao tse tung]

Doesn't that number now include the £20m bonus's for promotion - which were originally excluded

Yes it does.

We lost 15m in year 1 of the cycle, and 46m in year 2.

We then lost 34.5m in year 3.

From what I can see, we were knocked back on 10m of Covid claims and 20m of Promotion bonuses.

That means we have lost 81m in the first years of the current cycle - and we will have permitted losses of 81m for the 3 years

 

[toms]

Call me cynical, but a couple of issues regarding any appeal have just struck me.
Any appeal would be a disaster as far as the EPL and the integrity of their competition is involved; so they want to avoid an appeal, by us or Everton, at any cost.
With that in mind, think about the following...

It's now coming out, via certain media outlets, that any appeal may see our points increased, so dissuasion is drip-fed from the EPL via the media to Forest.

Everton will be given a sanction, but given points back to appease them to dissuade any appeal, see above for example of this.

Everton's hearing is outside of our appeals window, so no collusion possible regarding an agreement with Everton (we both appeal).

So, my earlier thinking that Everton will get a 6 points is now, due to my conspiracy theory, off the table.

The scheming b**********#######rds

Unless we can put the appeal in and then withdraw. Tactically that might be the best thing to do. We'd be liable for costs but so what ?

Wonder if we can do that without being further sanctioned for putting in the appeal

 

[BlackGold]

Yes it does.

We lost 15m in year 1 of the cycle, and 46m in year 2.

We then lost 34.5m in year 3.

From what I can see, we were knocked back on 10m of Covid claims and 20m of Promotion bonuses.

That means we have lost 81m in the first years of the current cycle - and we will have permitted losses of 81m for the 3 years

of course, its 81m for years 1+2,

Coupled to the upper projections, we'll be around 98m.

So maybe a couple of lowish sales might see us over the line.

Get to work, Ross!

 

[Geedo61]

yeah, page 26 of the filing, 20.9m in bonuses.
unfortunately, IC didn't allow the bonus to be exempt.

5.8 On 31 March 2023, Forest provided the Premier League with its PSR Calculation based on aprojected league position of 12th at the end of the 2022/23 season. This PSR Calculation alsoincluded the Covid Add-Back of £12,178,000 for FY22. Forest was also looking to add-backthe promotion costs of c. £20m that it had incurred (largely in the form of contractual bonusesto its playing squad and the coaches) when it secured promotion to the Premier League.

5.9 On 2 June 2023, the Premier League informed Forest, in relation to its PSR Calculation for the2022/23 season, inter alia that: it would only allow a Covid Add-Back of £2.5m for FY22, notthe entire £12,178,000 claimed and it would not allow Forest to claim any allowances for costslinked to promotion from the EFL Championship.

The dates are very important in this communication.
Basically it took the EPL 2 months to rule that these were not accepted - when we previously had thought they were.
First concern - if these costs are related to the ELF - how can the EPL make a judgement on them?
The lateness of informing us meant that we had no time to react to meet the 30th June deadline i.e. - rightly or wrongly we thought we were complicit and then at the last minute had to sell BJ or someone else to fund the missing £30m.
The EPL have to take some responsibility for this.

 

[sherwood]

Reality is that we didn't try to - we didn't think we needed to.
We appear to have been misled in regard to our COVID & Promotion Bonus exemptions. This is £30m that suddenly had to be accounted for, which we thought was exempt - even Keiron Maguire assumed/thought this to be true.
This £30m is actually more important than the selling of BJ as this would have bought us near to the threshold, without selling BJ.
If you remember the BJ money was to be used for financing this summers spend on Sangare, Murillo etc.
When the EPL informed us that we had to include the COVID/promotion bonus's in our accounts - that is what has f**ked us up - and will probably do so this year as well.

Yes we thought £12.5m for covid reductions and it was £2.5m or thereabouts. We thought promotion expenditure could be offset - £20m.

Worrying if this is genuine and not just a smokescreen as surely we should have an understanding of the bloody rules.

 

[ZedRed]

If Everton get more points deducted for this season then we will next season. It's not something we want to hope for

I believe we can only get deducted points next season if we're in the EPL.....

 

[Geedo61]

Yes it does.

We lost 15m in year 1 of the cycle, and 46m in year 2.

We then lost 34.5m in year 3.

From what I can see, we were knocked back on 10m of Covid claims and 20m of Promotion bonuses.

That means we have lost 81m in the first years of the current cycle - and we will have permitted losses of 81m for the 3 years

Thats how I read it as well.
The £30m knock-back for COVID and bonus's is what has done us - not the sale of BJ
I don't understand how the EPL can knockback our accounts/costs for the EFL promotion year?
Isn't this the game Leicester are playing in reverse?

 

[Geedo61]

Yes we thought £12.5m for covid reductions and it was £2.5m or thereabouts. We thought promotion expenditure could be offset - £20m.

Worrying if this is genuine and not just a smokescreen as surely we should have an understanding of the bloody rules.

I hear you but I am not sure it is that simple.
Certainly with COVID - all EPL teams were allowed to write off £100m - Everton tried to write off £200m. It is not unreasonable that little old Forest could write off £12m - how can we only be allowed £2m.
The promotion bonus's - How can the EPL make a judgement on money spent as an EFL club?

 

[Geedo61]

Call me cynical, but a couple of issues regarding any appeal have just struck me.
Any appeal would be a disaster as far as the EPL and the integrity of their competition is involved; so they want to avoid an appeal, by us or Everton, at any cost.
With that in mind, think about the following...

It's now coming out, via certain media outlets, that any appeal may see our points increased, so dissuasion is drip-fed from the EPL via the media to Forest.

Everton will be given a sanction, but given points back to appease them to dissuade any appeal, see above for example of this.

Everton's hearing is outside of our appeals window, so no collusion possible regarding an agreement with Everton (we both appeal).

So, my earlier thinking that Everton will get a 6 points is now, due to my conspiracy theory, off the table.

The scheming b**********#######rds

If this true - it is another case of the EPL making it up as it goes along as this was not the rule for the Everton appeal.
I will try and find the info.