Tics v Hornets | Page 4 | Vital Football

Tics v Hornets

moonay said:
I got it wrong ... two separate incidents. Post on 12 seconds You don't see from this, but they played a replay from a different angle in the stadium), penalty on 57 seconds.
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Ta. On the first didn’t realise it had glanced the post. Re the second, never clocked this live, though they tend not be given and no one appealed. To be fair to the ref, bar a strange yellow for Shinnie, I thought he had a competent game.
 
HudWiganFan said:
Blackpool have smaller attendances than ours, they beat Watford 3-1 two weeks ago. Millwall's attendances are about the same or marginally bigger, they beat Watford 3-0 last week.

I just don't buy that we can't compete against these teams. It just feels defeatist and if that's the mindset Leam is instilling in these players then no wonder we've won at home once since April.
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Blackpool have had years to build a squad capable of playing at this level by recruiting each year. We unfortunately havent. We had to recruit players on two year contracts out of admin Summer 21 with the hope that we could have a go in League One. Many in our team arent championship level but unless you want the owners to risk the financial future of the club we are where we are as we simply dont have the money to compete just yet. We have done admirably this season and we may have enough to stay up but Please be realistic.
 
Ooohaaahdonniepage said:
Blackpool have had years to build a squad capable of playing at this level by recruiting each year. We unfortunately havent. We had to recruit players on two year contracts out of admin Summer 21 with the hope that we could have a go in League One. Many in our team arent championship level but unless you want the owners to risk the financial future of the club we are where we are as we simply dont have the money to compete just yet. We have done admirably this season and we may have enough to stay up but Please be realistic.
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The difference with Blackpool they used the loan market well. And there manager had good contacts within the game. That makes a big difference Richardson won’t have them contacts.
 
Ooohaaahdonniepage said:
Blackpool have had years to build a squad capable of playing at this level by recruiting each year. We unfortunately havent. We had to recruit players on two year contracts out of admin Summer 21 with the hope that we could have a go in League One. Many in our team arent championship level but unless you want the owners to risk the financial future of the club we are where we are as we simply dont have the money to compete just yet. We have done admirably this season and we may have enough to stay up but Please be realistic.
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Blackpool were promoted the season before us! They've hardly had years at this level. They didn't have the luxury of splurging money on high-end free agents in League One either and spent no more than us in the summer window. Their squad is nothing special at a glance, they're just doing more with what little they have right now than we are.

My point is we don't need to spend to at least compete at home in this league, as Rotherham have aptly proven by scoring four against Reading - a team we didn't even have a shot on target against at home shortly thereafter. It's not unrealistic to expect more of this group than one win and six goals in nine home games, unless you really think that little of this set of players.
 
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HudWiganFan said:
Blackpool were promoted the season before us! They've hardly had years at this level. They didn't have the luxury of splurging money on high-end free agents in League One either and spent no more than us in the summer window. Their squad is nothing special at a glance, they're just doing more with what little they have right now than we are.

My point is we don't to spend to at least compete at home in this league, as Rotherham have aptly proven by scoring four against Reading - a team we didn't even have a shot on target against at home shortly thereafter. It's not unrealistic to expect more of this group than one win and six goals in nine home games, unless you really think that little of this set of players.
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Exactly, 12 months before us, Blackpool created a brand new squad more or less in the Summer and picked up a surprise promotion, snaller budget than us. I think they had 5 ex Wigan players last season, playing a decent amount of minutes and none of which I would have had anywhere near our starting 11 last season.

They are widely regarded by supporters across all Championship clubs to have the weakest squad in the division but through excellent management stayed up comfortably last season, they seem to attack a bit more and try and win. That's a real disappointing aspect about Richardson, too cautious.

When we push higher up the pitch, press high, commit men forward and pass it along the floor, we actually look a solid mid table Championship side. When we drop deeper and revert to long ball, we look very poor.

Once Broadhead went off today we lost our outlet up top and nothing sticked anymore and we needlessly invited pressure from a Watford side who despite obvious quality offered little threat against our defence who played very well.

Magennis when he comes on, just annilhates our team, as he cannot hold the ball up, his reaction times are very slow and it changes the style of the whole team, to something we are uncomfortable with. Unless we are going all out attack late onwith say 3 strikers on and pumping crosses into the box, then I don't see how he ever gets on the pitch if we want to start winning games. Fair enough Broadhead can't do 90 but Aasgaard would have been a more like for like sub with his style, he could have held the ball up and created.

A close game but felt up until Broadheads departure, we looked the more likely side to win it 1-0 but that sub cost us the game.
 
I’m probably making excuses here - though I think it does have an impact. Both Rotherham and Blackpools grounds are compact and so whilst they have similar crowds to us I think it’s far more difficult for away teams at those venues. At our place they have large allocations, vast areas of empty seats and a poor, unintimating atmosphere because of it. Until we (fans)/club do something to address it I think we’ll always struggle.
 
After seeing today it’s clear we need more attacking quality (Broadhead can do it at this level, I’m not sure about any of the others). We lack pace out wide and you can’t teach that. I think Shinnie is great and Cousins can do it at this level but the other midfielders struggle and we don’t create much. The problem is to solve this it would cost millions of pounds and we simply don’t have it. It’ll be a massive achievement to stay up this year. As supporters all we can do it try to be more positive and get behind the players. The set up was much better today and if we can stick to that I think we can get a few more points against some of the teams in the bottom half of the table.
 
NorthernSoul said:
Exactly, 12 months before us, Blackpool created a brand new squad more or less in the Summer and picked up a surprise promotion, snaller budget than us. I think they had 5 ex Wigan players last season, playing a decent amount of minutes and none of which I would have had anywhere near our starting 11 last season.

They are widely regarded by supporters across all Championship clubs to have the weakest squad in the division but through excellent management stayed up comfortably last season, they seem to attack a bit more and try and win. That's a real disappointing aspect about Richardson, too cautious.

When we push higher up the pitch, press high, commit men forward and pass it along the floor, we actually look a solid mid table Championship side. When we drop deeper and revert to long ball, we look very poor.

Once Broadhead went off today we lost our outlet up top and nothing sticked anymore and we needlessly invited pressure from a Watford side who despite obvious quality offered little threat against our defence who played very well.

Magennis when he comes on, just annilhates our team, as he cannot hold the ball up, his reaction times are very slow and it changes the style of the whole team, to something we are uncomfortable with. Unless we are going all out attack late onwith say 3 strikers on and pumping crosses into the box, then I don't see how he ever gets on the pitch if we want to start winning games. Fair enough Broadhead can't do 90 but Aasgaard would have been a more like for like sub with his style, he could have held the ball up and created.

A close game but felt up until Broadheads departure, we looked the more likely side to win it 1-0 but that sub cost us the game.
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Doing unbelievable Rotherham and Blackpool. A grand total of 3 points above us! The real success this season is Blackburn. A massive amount of their team being made up of homegrown lads.
 
Can this lad from Huddersfield not play full back another complete waste of a wage again unless injured this lad should have had some game time. To see what he can do he’s played at this level
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
TBF Jock, I am in the opposite camp to you.

I thought the performance level from us was decent and we did try to get the passing game going. The first ten to fifteen minutes we succeeded and looked good, and this is where we differ, you say we went defensive, I would say that Watford got their act together and pressed high forcing us to go long as we don't have the quality to break the press.

For me this was a game of quality vs triers, the latter being what we are, whereas Watford still have a lot of PL quality in their side. This was evident in the way they played around us using one touch football to create space and stretched the play with wide players who were always available to receive the ball when we put them under pressure.

With the players we have we have to play at our best every game, and even then, we are not guaranteed a win when we come up against quality players. We all knew this was going to be a tough season and so it is proving to be. I still believe we have the ability to win games through sheer effort and togetherness and that we will survive, but we need to be picking up points against the teams around us, and so the Stoke game on Wednesday becomes an important game as they are only above us on goal difference.
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Exactly this. This was the first game I have been to this season largely due to me fracturing my ankle leaving me unable to drive. I told my wife before the game we would need luck on our side to win today because of the quality Watford have in their ranks (even with a few injuries). We started well but they had another gear and their players were very good on the ball and playing through us. To be fair our lads stuck at it and we defended well apart from the lapse in concentration for their goal. I left disappointed but not gutted by the loss because it was an entertaining game and we played our part. I think if we had more quality we could have won it but we need to suck this one up. There are clear deficiencies in our team. Our wing backs have no pace and even though I thought Max played quite well today I always feel even he feels he is stretching himself at this level. And Keane just does not offer enough for us out of possession. If he played for one of the big sides he could get away with it but in our side we need everyone busting an absolute gut. If you wanted any evidence today of where we are compared to the big boys in this division it was with our first sub. When Naylor came on I turned to the wife and said the manager was content with a draw. I can understand it, but when it comes to the end of the season it’s the number of three points we accumulate which will be most important. I’d like us to be a bit braver. Chuck young Thelo on in his favoured number 10 role for 25 mins and roll the dice. Who knows it could have given us the cutting edge we were lacking……
 
I thought today was a bit like last season in reverse; Watford had vastly superior set of players but for all their potential they didn't really play that well and only showed flashes of class here and there. But eventually they pulled off a moment of quality late that won them the game. That was us last season and the boot on the other foot today.

I thought we started with a very negative team selection and unbalanced side. We lacked width, pace and creativity with no attacking mids and Broadhead really needs to be in midfield pulling the strings not feeding off scraps up front. So it wasn't really much of a suprise we struggled to create many clear cut chances or have a shot on goal. But I thought for an unbalanced side the players played very well within their limitations.

I thought it was probably our best start to a game this season, we are normally horribly slow and negative out of the blocks but in the first 15 mins today like Blackburn and Rotherham we were brave and the intensity was there from the first minute. Our pressing was high and aggressive, there was a good tempo and we attempted to try and play the ball more on the deck or at least target long balls rather than hoof and hope without a target man.

Watford I think were caught off guard by our fast start and were not getting a second on the ball to show their skill. Our high press was forcing them long and they aren't a physical team so we easily won all those headers and second balls. But after about 15 minutes they broke our press for the first time and their pace, movement and lots of runners opened us up to nearly score. That seemed like it scared us into dropping deeper, easing off the press and Watford finally started to get time on the ball and get into the game.

Anyone who does their homework on us knows a very high press absolutely destroys us as we have no method to play the ball out and just go long which we are hopeless at. Yet Watford started very lazy not pressing us and giving us time and space to try and play out more comfortably from throw ins and defensive. But as Watford crept into the game they started pressing us a bit and we started going long more which wasn't as successful but we were still picking up all the second balls, battling well, and closing down the passing lanes effectively.

It was a good first half for us - we had been very competitive, we had generally been out working them and restricted them pretty well but failed to really create anything more than half chances in open play. But there was dangerous flashes of their quality here that gave them all the best chances.

Second half was more of the same, we were the better side on pure work rate but they had all the quality. We kept plugging away valiantly grinding out the odd opening but our lack of creativity in our starting line up was evident. You still felt like against Blackburn we maybe could've snook a goal with a bit of luck. While you always felt they had a moment of magic in them but we had managed to survive the few they pulled out. It was becoming quite end to end and quite entertaining considering the lack of shots on target.

We got to the usual 75 minute mark, as we know we generally don't make subs or tactical changes earlier, and brought off Broadhead for Magennis and it really hurt us going forward. I thought there was definitely an argument to take off one of the 8 defensive players and bring on another attacker but I think we didn't want to risk the draw by going for the win. Naylor for Cousins I felt was a clear sign we had settled for a point. Unfortunately that would bite us as Watford scored in the last 3 minutes. Magennis headed a corner back to the corner taker but no one went to close him down so he had plenty of time and space we'd denied them all game to pick a quality cross to the back post where Joao Pedro got up above Whatmough to head in.

We immediately brought on Scully and Aasgaard to try and desperately attack them but it was too little to late, we had lost our shape and it was just us pumping it long and them clearing it. We hit the bar in the last kick of the game from a set piece but ultimately we just never seriously tested their keeper all afternoon.

I felt as loses go we lost in the right way. We certainly didn't deserve to lose and for all our effort you could argue we deserved to squeak out a 1-0 win. There was things I'd have liked to have seen us do differently but I think the players on the pitch largely gave you everything they had against a team of better players they out competed them in most areas.

There wasn't a huge amount of skill on display today it was all heart and effort. But I still feel that if we show that level of application every week we'll not go down. That was my main frustration from today - we turn in a good performance against one of the better teams in the league and lost - fair enough. But if we applied ourselves the same against poor to mediocre sides we've played reccently like Reading, Hull, Cardiff, Sunderland, Boro and QPR we wouldn't be in free fall losing those 6 games in our last 7. We can't magically make our players significantly better, but we can ensure that we put that level of commitment into every game and I'd say we were quite pathetic in many of those 6 loses mentioned above. It shows we can compete against anyone at this level if we do ourselves justice. But we really need to be braver, you can't play effectively a back 5 with 3 def mids and create much. Fortune favours the brave in football and we're not good enough defensively to be a 1-0 park the bus team at this level.

Individually
Jones - superb, made a couple of excellent saves and very alert to cut out danger. His long balls were flatter and faster than Amos' so it was a bit harder for Watford to defend against. No chance with their goal. If Amos is fit for Wednesday he shouldn't start over Jones.

Kerr - solid again, didn't get forward as much as he did in some of our other good displays but defensively didn't put a foot wrong.

Whatmough - had a very good game but out jumped for their winner. Not sure if he made a mistake as much as their striker just beat him. Hit bar at the end.

Tilt - struggled badly trying to play the ball out and kept going down injured in first half. But second half made some crucial tackles and defend well.

McClean - he works his socks off but he won't take on his man or go down the outside to put a cross in. It kills our width on the left. Ball fell to him a few times in space at back post but failed to make anything of it.

Darikwa - had a pretty good game after his nightmare last week. But still offered very little threat or width from right wing back. If both wing backs aren't able to get wide and get crosses in you end up more of a back 5.

Cousins - did well sitting deepest of def mid trio, presumably taken off to manage fitness rather than tactical.

Shinnie - outstanding, took on extra responsibility trying to drive forward and create due to a lack of alternatives. Harsh yellow card means he misses Stoke game and that is a huge blow.

Power - rather than driftung over to become a second right back to make up for Darikwas lack of delivery on attacks he played pushed higher up to play right wing and it worked much better. Max had his best game for a while, got down the line and put some decent balls in.

Broadhead - looked a threat every time he got the ball but just didn't get it enough. For me he needs to be in attacking mid so he'll see more of the ball. Our attacking threat seriously declined once he came off he was the most likely to create or score a goal.

Keane - hit the post with a set piece in the first half, odd couple of flashes of quality here and there but again didnt get involved much in the play. But like Broadhead he didn't get any service either.

Magennis - for a big lad he is so easily pushed off the ball and doesn't win any headers. He was only on a few minutes and looked knackered and lethargic. Not sure if he should've been the one to sprint out to try and stop the cross for their winner after his clearance went straight back to them.

Naylor, Aasgaard and Scully - not really on long enough to make much of an impression.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I thought today was a bit like last season in reverse; Watford had vastly superior set of players but for all their potential they didn't really play that well and only showed flashes of class here and there. But eventually they pulled off a moment of quality late that won them the game. That was us last season and the boot on the other foot today.

I thought we started with a very negative team selection and unbalanced side. We lacked width, pace and creativity with no attacking mids and Broadhead really needs to be in midfield pulling the strings not feeding off scraps up front. So it wasn't really much of a suprise we struggled to create many clear cut chances or have a shot on goal. But I thought for an unbalanced side the players played very well within their limitations.

I thought it was probably our best start to a game this season, we are normally horribly slow and negative out of the blocks but in the first 15 mins today like Blackburn and Rotherham we were brave and the intensity was there from the first minute. Our pressing was high and aggressive, there was a good tempo and we attempted to try and play the ball more on the deck or at least target long balls rather than hoof and hope without a target man.

Watford I think were caught off guard by our fast start and were not getting a second on the ball to show their skill. Our high press was forcing them long and they aren't a physical team so we easily won all those headers and second balls. But after about 15 minutes they broke our press for the first time and their pace, movement and lots of runners opened us up to nearly score. That seemed like it scared us into dropping deeper, easing off the press and Watford finally started to get time on the ball and get into the game.

Anyone who does their homework on us knows a very high press absolutely destroys us as we have no method to play the ball out and just go long which we are hopeless at. Yet Watford started very lazy not pressing us and giving us time and space to try and play out more comfortably from throw ins and defensive. But as Watford crept into the game they started pressing us a bit and we started going long more which wasn't as successful but we were still picking up all the second balls, battling well, and closing down the passing lanes effectively.

It was a good first half for us - we had been very competitive, we had generally been out working them and restricted them pretty well but failed to really create anything more than half chances in open play. But there was dangerous flashes of their quality here that gave them all the best chances.

Second half was more of the same, we were the better side on pure work rate but they had all the quality. We kept plugging away valiantly grinding out the odd opening but our lack of creativity in our starting line up was evident. You still felt like against Blackburn we maybe could've snook a goal with a bit of luck. While you always felt they had a moment of magic in them but we had managed to survive the few they pulled out. It was becoming quite end to end and quite entertaining considering the lack of shots on target.

We got to the usual 75 minute mark, as we know we generally don't make subs or tactical changes earlier, and brought off Broadhead for Magennis and it really hurt us going forward. I thought there was definitely an argument to take off one of the 8 defensive players and bring on another attacker but I think we didn't want to risk the draw by going for the win. Naylor for Cousins I felt was a clear sign we had settled for a point. Unfortunately that would bite us as Watford scored in the last 3 minutes. Magennis headed a corner back to the corner taker but no one went to close him down so he had plenty of time and space we'd denied them all game to pick a quality cross to the back post where Joao Pedro got up above Whatmough to head in.

We immediately brought on Scully and Aasgaard to try and desperately attack them but it was too little to late, we had lost our shape and it was just us pumping it long and them clearing it. We hit the bar in the last kick of the game from a set piece but ultimately we just never seriously tested their keeper all afternoon.

I felt as loses go we lost in the right way. We certainly didn't deserve to lose and for all our effort you could argue we deserved to squeak out a 1-0 win. There was things I'd have liked to have seen us do differently but I think the players on the pitch largely gave you everything they had against a team of better players they out competed them in most areas.

There wasn't a huge amount of skill on display today it was all heart and effort. But I still feel that if we show that level of application every week we'll not go down. That was my main frustration from today - we turn in a good performance against one of the better teams in the league and lost - fair enough. But if we applied ourselves the same against poor to mediocre sides we've played reccently like Reading, Hull, Cardiff, Sunderland, Boro and QPR we wouldn't be in free fall losing those 6 games in our last 7. We can't magically make our players significantly better, but we can ensure that we put that level of commitment into every game and I'd say we were quite pathetic in many of those 6 loses mentioned above. It shows we can compete against anyone at this level if we do ourselves justice. But we really need to be braver, you can't play effectively a back 5 with 3 def mids and create much. Fortune favours the brave in football and we're not good enough defensively to be a 1-0 park the bus team at this level.

Individually
Jones - superb, made a couple of excellent saves and very alert to cut out danger. His long balls were flatter and faster than Amos' so it was a bit harder for Watford to defend against. No chance with their goal. If Amos is fit for Wednesday he shouldn't start over Jones.

Kerr - solid again, didn't get forward as much as he did in some of our other good displays but defensively didn't put a foot wrong.

Whatmough - had a very good game but out jumped for their winner. Not sure if he made a mistake as much as their striker just beat him. Hit bar at the end.

Tilt - struggled badly trying to play the ball out and kept going down injured in first half. But second half made some crucial tackles and defend well.

McClean - he works his socks off but he won't take on his man or go down the outside to put a cross in. It kills our width on the left. Ball fell to him a few times in space at back post but failed to make anything of it.

Darikwa - had a pretty good game after his nightmare last week. But still offered very little threat or width from right wing back. If both wing backs aren't able to get wide and get crosses in you end up more of a back 5.

Cousins - did well sitting deepest of def mid trio, presumably taken off to manage fitness rather than tactical.

Shinnie - outstanding, took on extra responsibility trying to drive forward and create due to a lack of alternatives. Harsh yellow card means he misses Stoke game and that is a huge blow.

Power - rather than driftung over to become a second right back to make up for Darikwas lack of delivery on attacks he played pushed higher up to play right wing and it worked much better. Max had his best game for a while, got down the line and put some decent balls in.

Broadhead - looked a threat every time he got the ball but just didn't get it enough. For me he needs to be in attacking mid so he'll see more of the ball. Our attacking threat seriously declined once he came off he was the most likely to create or score a goal.

Keane - hit the post with a set piece in the first half, odd couple of flashes of quality here and there but again didnt get involved much in the play. But like Broadhead he didn't get any service either.

Magennis - for a big lad he is so easily pushed off the ball and doesn't win any headers. He was only on a few minutes and looked knackered and lethargic. Not sure if he should've been the one to sprint out to try and stop the cross for their winner after his clearance went straight back to them.

Naylor, Aasgaard and Scully - not really on long enough to make much of an impression.
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Good post again one or twice Shinnie got into good positions to have a crack at goal,but passed it instead some times you just need to have a go,
 
HudWiganFan said:
Blackpool were promoted the season before us! They've hardly had years at this level. They didn't have the luxury of splurging money on high-end free agents in League One either and spent no more than us in the summer window. Their squad is nothing special at a glance, they're just doing more with what little they have right now than we are.

My point is we don't need to spend to at least compete at home in this league, as Rotherham have aptly proven by scoring four against Reading - a team we didn't even have a shot on target against at home shortly thereafter. It's not unrealistic to expect more of this group than one win and six goals in nine home games, unless you really think that little of this set of players.
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100% agree, having better players always helps, but it's not what you have it's what you get out of them.

Rotherham and Blackpool have really poor quality squads for this level (probably worse than us) but play to their strengths and get every drop of potential out of what they've got. While West Brom and Watford this season have 2 of the best squads but have not got anything close to their potential out of it. I think too often this season we've not got enough out of what we have.

I believe the squad we have despite it's limitations can be competitive at this level if coached correctly. We've shown there is nothing to be afraid of if we play to our strengths and apply ourselves to the best of our ability.
 
Ooooooo to Be a Wiganer said:
Good post again one or twice Shinnie got into good positions to have a crack at goal,but passed it instead some times you just need to have a go,
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I think that's the thing when you're a def mid trying to do an attackers job - it's probably your natural instinct to look for a pass rather than shoot.

I was thinking the other day Shinnie used to be a left wing back. Could be worth trying him there at some point this season - but issue is we'd badly miss him in centre mid.
 
I thought Shinnie played well today. Really tried to grab the game by the scruff of the neck for us at times by driving forward with the ball. Sure he will lose it now and then because he’ll get robbed being such a wee man, but we look more solid with Cousins in there with him. As KDZ said I think we have enough to stay up. We have work rate, heart and desire, we just need to make the best of what we’ve got in the final third. Leam is slowing getting there in starting Broadhead and dropping Magennis we just need a bit more tinkering and that will involve dropping the undroppable Keane or playing Thelo in place of Max on the right side of that three in midfield. I would like to see Scully given more of a runout. Can he be the next Jarrod Bowen? We’ll never know unless we play him!! BTW anyone else see big Robert Huth there today? Can only think he was scouting for Sjoke
 
Made in Wigan said:
I’m probably making excuses here - though I think it does have an impact. Both Rotherham and Blackpools grounds are compact and so whilst they have similar crowds to us I think it’s far more difficult for away teams at those venues. At our place they have large allocations, vast areas of empty seats and a poor, unintimating atmosphere because of it. Until we (fans)/club do something to address it I think we’ll always struggle.
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Sorry not having that. We did just fine at home under Paul Cook as a newly promoted side. It comes down to this manager and these players, nothing else. Leam Richardson was a dour defender as a player and like so many ex players before him has transitioned into a similar style of manager.

I’ve seen enough now to say confidently that we’ll go down as it stands. No way are there three teams worse than us. We’ve the potency of a wet fart going forward and can’t keep a clean sheet. Not having a David Marshall like solid goalkeeper for this level is absolutely killing us as is Nyambe’s injury.
 
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