Tics v Hornets

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Well Rotherham's attendances are smaller than ours, they spent less than us in the window and they at least picked up a point and scored at home vs Watford. They also put four past Reading who are tipped by many for promotion and are in the top-half. I think we've only scored five or six in nine games at home combined this season.

I thought we battled well but their keeper ultimately didn't have a save to make again and we had one shot on target for probably the fourth or fifth time at home this season even though Watford were nothing special at all. It is 100% possible to win these games at least once every 5 or 6 outings at the DW and the brutal reality is we're going to have to beat some of these 'established' teams at some point to stay up. We proved against QPR we can more than match good teams in this league! Our spend in the summer of 2018 was pretty slim, much of our side retained its core League One DNA and we still put up much, much better home performances that season than this.

I just don't think we should be talking up sides like Watford like they're some unbeatable behemoth even though they've only won 6 from 16 this season. Most teams have more money and experience than us at this level, at least two-thirds so, unless we ditch the negative, overly-respectful attitude to the opposition we will never stick in this league.

I take your point about Rotherham having lower attendances than us but once again you are using an example of a club that has been in the championship more recently than us and have retained players from that era. They have been a yo-yo club in recent times and have been relegated as many times as they have been promoted so in my opinion, they are a poor example to quote.

Also, if we had held out for a few more minutes we would have equalled Rotherham's result against them. You may also be forgetting that we beat Rotherham 2-0 at their place and were hardly embarrassed by losing 1-0 to Reading.

I also don't think people are talking up Watford, they are quoting a fact that they have a team of ex-premier league players and a respected ex-international manager with a massive budget difference to ours. True, their results have been poor, but they are a sleeping giant in this division with the quality of player they have retained from the PL, and under the right manager will start to recover.

As far as beating the "established" teams in this division I would say we have not been too bad, we have had decent draws against Preston, Norwich and Bristol City and wins against Blackburn, Luton and Birmingham.

The problem we have is inconsistency in our performances that have probably led to a loss of confidence in the squad, however the last two games seem to have got us back on track performance wise and hopefully a win is just around the corner which will help to re-establish the confidence.

 

[HudWiganFan]

I take your point about Rotherham having lower attendances than us but once again you are using an example of a club that has been in the championship more recently than us and have retained players from that era. They have been a yo-yo club in recent times and have been relegated as many times as they have been promoted so in my opinion, they are a poor example to quote.

Also, if we had held out for a few more minutes we would have equalled Rotherham's result against them. You may also be forgetting that we beat Rotherham 2-0 at their place and were hardly embarrassed by losing 1-0 to Reading.

I also don't think people are talking up Watford, they are quoting a fact that they have a team of ex-premier league players and a respected ex-international manager with a massive budget difference to ours. True, their results have been poor, but they are a sleeping giant in this division with the quality of player they have retained from the PL, and under the right manager will start to recover.

As far as beating the "established" teams in this division I would say we have not been too bad, we have had decent draws against Preston, Norwich and Bristol City and wins against Blackburn, Luton and Birmingham.

The problem we have is inconsistency in our performances that have probably led to a loss of confidence in the squad, however the last two games seem to have got us back on track performance wise and hopefully a win is just around the corner which will help to re-establish the confidence.

Rotherham lost two players who made the League One Team of the Year last season, whereas we kept all of ours. I don't agree with your assessment that their transition was somehow easier because they had a few players left over from the Championship two seasons ago.

I didn't forget about beating Rotherham, it was away and not relevant to my concern about home points of which Rotherham have more of than us despite defeat that day. There's also a big difference between scoring four goals and not having a shot on target against the same opponent a few days apart. We haven't scored more than two goals in a single match, home or away this season and don't look particularly like doing so even against the worst sides.

Plenty of teams in this league have ex-Premier League experience in both their playing and managerial ranks. Probably even the majority. If we (and that includes the management) act like positive results against those teams are unattainable we may as well pack up and go home because you can't stay up if you don't get at least a handful of results against those teams.

Watford were no better than us for 75 minutes yesterday. If anything, treating them like the 'ex-Premier League' team at the end of the game by ceding all possession and playing for the 0-0 actually played into the hands of their 'ex-Premier League' players by giving them all the ball and the chance for their quality players to launch constant crosses into the area which they were inevitably going to capitalise from.

If we lose our last two home games before the World Cup, we'll have an identical home record this season to Warren Joyce's before he was sacked. Clearly affording teams respect and being afraid of teams' top-flight credentials isn't working because we've got the worst home record in the EFL three months into the season and it needs to change.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Rotherham lost two players who made the League One Team of the Year last season, whereas we kept all of ours. I don't agree with your assessment that their transition was somehow easier because they had a few players left over from the Championship two seasons ago.

I didn't forget about beating Rotherham, it was away and not relevant to my concern about home points of which Rotherham have more of than us despite defeat that day. There's also a big difference between scoring four goals and not having a shot on target against the same opponent a few days apart. We haven't scored more than two goals in a single match, home or away this season and don't look particularly like doing so even against the worst sides.

Plenty of teams in this league have ex-Premier League experience in both their playing and managerial ranks. Probably even the majority. If we (and that includes the management) act like positive results against those teams are unattainable we may as well pack up and go home because you can't stay up if you don't get at least a handful of results against those teams.

Watford were no better than us for 75 minutes yesterday. If anything, treating them like the 'ex-Premier League' team at the end of the game by ceding all possession and playing for the 0-0 actually played into the hands of their 'ex-Premier League' players by giving them all the ball and the chance for their quality players to launch constant crosses into the area which they were inevitably going to capitalise from.

If we lose our last two home games before the World Cup, we'll have an identical home record this season to Warren Joyce's before he was sacked. Clearly affording teams respect and being afraid of teams' top-flight credentials isn't working because we've got the worst home record in the EFL three months into the season and it needs to change.

I am in full agreement that change needs to happen, I simply question your assumption that we are paying teams too much respect.

There was very little respect shown to Blackburn or WBA at home, or for that matter Watford as we went at them. Change is happening in my opinion, whether you agree with me or not, the last two performances were a lot different than the one against Boro, but the problem is the inconsistency in the way we play.

The difference yesterday was the quality of player available to the manager when it came to substitutions and the way they were used. An ex International and Premier League manager made a better decision to use his substitutes than a younger manager still learning his trade, not surprising how that turned out really. Bilic in his interview has said that they were struggling to break down our defence and sent on one of his subs with the instructions not to cross the ball as our centre backs were winning the battle. He was full of praise for the way we kept them out and in his opinion the reason we lost was a lack of quality upfront, which is something we are all aware of. We can't really change that until the next window, as long as funding is available, and as such need to make the best of what we have now, which again in my opinion is what has been happening in the last two games.

Being aware of the credentials of other teams and giving them respect is something you disregard at your peril, and many teams that have disrespected class have come a cropper. You need to respect your opposition, but not fear them, the problem for me comes when you start to change your style to suit the perceived threats and end up causing confusion amongst your own players.

The examples you gave of Blackpool and Millwall are good examples of teams that play their own game and let the opposition worry about them and that, in my opinion is what we should be striving for.

In essence, I don't believe we are giving teams too much respect, but we are trying to match their styles instead of concentrating on what we do best and letting them worry about us.

 

[You are my sunshine]

Thought we competed really well yesterday against a dangerous side full of pace and quality.In the end we were unfortunate not to get anything out of the game and deserved at least a point.But overall I was satisfied with the performance,just a bit gutted we didn't have anything to show for our efforts.

Jones,Kerr,Whatmough(apart from their goal)and Cousins all had good games but my mom was Shinnie who was excellent again.It was such a soft yellow he received,so he'll be a big miss on Wednesday through suspension.Think that altercation he had with the ref just beforehand about his distance from the Watford corner didn't help matters.

Broadhead,as has been well documented needs to be managed to get through games due to his injury history.But unfortunately when he went off we had a lack of pace in the final third,which allowed Watford to push on.

For me,if Humphrys wasn't out on loan,he could offer us that pace and energy in the final third in this system when Broadhead isn't on the pitch.When the season started and Humps sent on loan,Richardson preferred the 4231,with the 1 being the target man in Wyke, Magennis or Fletcher.So I don't think Leam could see a role for Humphrys in that system,hence the decision to send him out on loan.

But as the season has progressed we've gone 3412 more often and had some good performances in it.I think Humphrys suits that system more,as shown when we briefly used it last season.So maybe he could be recalled in January,because without Broadhead on that pitch and Lang currently out injured there is a distinct lack of pace in our team in the attacking 3rd.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I am in full agreement that change needs to happen, I simply question your assumption that we are paying teams too much respect.

There was very little respect shown to Blackburn or WBA at home, or for that matter Watford as we went at them. Change is happening in my opinion, whether you agree with me or not, the last two performances were a lot different than the one against Boro, but the problem is the inconsistency in the way we play.

The difference yesterday was the quality of player available to the manager when it came to substitutions and the way they were used. An ex International and Premier League manager made a better decision to use his substitutes than a younger manager still learning his trade, not surprising how that turned out really. Bilic in his interview has said that they were struggling to break down our defence and sent on one of his subs with the instructions not to cross the ball as our centre backs were winning the battle. He was full of praise for the way we kept them out and in his opinion the reason we lost was a lack of quality upfront, which is something we are all aware of. We can't really change that until the next window, as long as funding is available, and as such need to make the best of what we have now, which again in my opinion is what has been happening in the last two games.

Being aware of the credentials of other teams and giving them respect is something you disregard at your peril, and many teams that have disrespected class have come a cropper. You need to respect your opposition, but not fear them, the problem for me comes when you start to change your style to suit the perceived threats and end up causing confusion amongst your own players.

The examples you gave of Blackpool and Millwall are good examples of teams that play their own game and let the opposition worry about them and that, in my opinion is what we should be striving for.

In essence, I don't believe we are giving teams too much respect, but we are trying to match their styles instead of concentrating on what we do best and letting them worry about us.

I think the inconsistency comes from different things but I do think one of those is probably showing the opposition too much respect. The Blackburn game we looked fearless while the Boro game we looked terrified of them.

It's always a balancing act of showing too much respect and being too defensive and negative or not enough respect and going too attacking and cavalier. If you go too far either way it goes wrong. Everyone is looking for the sweet spot between the two, a couple if times this season we found it but I think more often than not we have been too negative. We aren't good enough defensively to grind out results like we did last year, I'm not expecting us to go kamikaze attack but I think we need to show consistency in being positive and brave, from game to game rather than once every now and then.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Thought we competed really well yesterday against a dangerous side full of pace and quality.In the end we were unfortunate not to get anything out of the game and deserved at least a point.But overall I was satisfied with the performance,just a bit gutted we didn't have anything to show for our efforts.

Jones,Kerr,Whatmough(apart from their goal)and Cousins all had good games but my mom was Shinnie who was excellent again.It was such a soft yellow he received,so he'll be a big miss on Wednesday through suspension.Think that altercation he had with the ref just beforehand about his distance from the Watford corner didn't help matters.

Broadhead,as has been well documented needs to be managed to get through games due to his injury history.But unfortunately when he went off we had a lack of pace in the final third,which allowed Watford to push on.

For me,if Humphrys wasn't out on loan,he could offer us that pace and energy in the final third in this system when Broadhead isn't on the pitch.When the season started and Humps sent on loan,Richardson preferred the 4231,with the 1 being the target man in Wyke, Magennis or Fletcher.So I don't think Leam could see a role for Humphrys in that system,hence the decision to send him out on loan.

But as the season has progressed we've gone 3412 more often and had some good performances in it.I think Humphrys suits that system more,as shown when we briefly used it last season.So maybe he could be recalled in January,because without Broadhead on that pitch and Lang currently out injured there is a distinct lack of pace in our team in the attacking 3rd.

It's criminal Humphrys is on loan but Magennis gets on every game. Humphrys isn't proven but he has so much more upside than Magennis.

I'd understand it more if we were using Fletcher but he's barely getting a sniff either.

 

[springy-park]

It's criminal Humphrys is on loan but Magennis gets on every game. Humphrys isn't proven but he has so much more upside than Magennis.

I'd understand it more if we were using Fletcher but he's barely getting a sniff either.

I agree, when will Leam give Scully a Full game?

 

[Made in Wigan]

Thought we competed really well yesterday against a dangerous side full of pace and quality.In the end we were unfortunate not to get anything out of the game and deserved at least a point.But overall I was satisfied with the performance,just a bit gutted we didn't have anything to show for our efforts.

Jones,Kerr,Whatmough(apart from their goal)and Cousins all had good games but my mom was Shinnie who was excellent again.It was such a soft yellow he received,so he'll be a big miss on Wednesday through suspension.Think that altercation he had with the ref just beforehand about his distance from the Watford corner didn't help matters.

Broadhead,as has been well documented needs to be managed to get through games due to his injury history.But unfortunately when he went off we had a lack of pace in the final third,which allowed Watford to push on.

For me,if Humphrys wasn't out on loan,he could offer us that pace and energy in the final third in this system when Broadhead isn't on the pitch.When the season started and Humps sent on loan,Richardson preferred the 4231,with the 1 being the target man in Wyke, Magennis or Fletcher.So I don't think Leam could see a role for Humphrys in that system,hence the decision to send him out on loan.

But as the season has progressed we've gone 3412 more often and had some good performances in it.I think Humphrys suits that system more,as shown when we briefly used it last season.So maybe he could be recalled in January,because without Broadhead on that pitch and Lang currently out injured there is a distinct lack of pace in our team in the attacking 3rd.

Concur about Humps. He provides something different we don’t have. If anyone was to go out on loan it should have been Magennis as I said at the time. May as well run a sweepstake on which Scottish club Scully will end up on loan at the end of January,

 

[Th10]

Magennis gets loads of stick and I get some of it. One thing he can do is head a ball. Whenever we’ve got crosses in from further up the pitch he’s scored. I just think the way we play has never suited him, he isn’t a target man or a back to goal player. He’s played international football for years and some of the headers I’ve seen him score have been outstanding. He’s no world beater but if you can give him some decent balls to attack in the box then he’ll score a few. Will Keane is exactly the same. His biggest strength is running onto crosses rather than attacking balls from further back or trying to be a target man and playing with his back
to goal.

 

[springy-park]

Magennis gets loads of stick and I get some of it. One thing he can do is head a ball. Whenever we’ve got crosses in from further up the pitch he’s scored. I just think the way we play has never suited him, he isn’t a target man or a back to goal player. He’s played international football for years and some of the headers I’ve seen him score have been outstanding. He’s no world beater but if you can give him some decent balls to attack in the box then he’ll score a few. Will Keane is exactly the same. His biggest strength is running onto crosses rather than attacking balls from further back or trying to be a target man and playing with his back
to goal.

Your right, it's been said a few times on here, that we need wingers to get to the byline and get crosses over to Magennis to play to his strength's, but apparently this is not the way Leam wants the Team to play.

 

[springy-park]

Concur about Humps. He provides something different we don’t have. If anyone was to go out on loan it should have been Magennis as I said at the time. May as well run a sweepstake on which Scottish club Scully will end up on loan at the end of January,

We could have sent Scully to Gretna (Green) FC if they were still going,
as Scully seems to be always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I agree, when will Leam give Scully a Full game?

I wouldn't mind if he's not starting if he's getting on as a sub for a decent amount of time. We want him to step up a level from L1 but he can't get acclimated if he's on the pitch so little he and barely touches the ball. He's a quick, skilful player so when he's coming on when we are chasing games in last 5 mins and opposition are sat deep and defending in numbers he's probably not going to get the space to run into.

Bring him on with at least 20 mins for a few games and see how he gets on. It's still not long but it at least gives him a chance to try and get into the game.

But I get the impression just like McGrath, Jones and to a lesser extent Humphrys he just isn't really fancied.

 

[Kenny Morris]

The problem is that you get a siege mentality if you lose a few games on the trot and if the team is making a draw and playing reasonably well then the manager will be reluctant to make changes unless necessary. I'm not sying this is right, just that I believe it happens.
Leam and his management team are still learning their trade in the Championship and so will tend to think on the play safe side of things,
If we were on a winning run then i'm sure that at rthis stage of the season the likes of Scully would have had more game time by now, but we arent .

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

I think the inconsistency comes from different things but I do think one of those is probably showing the opposition too much respect. The Blackburn game we looked fearless while the Boro game we looked terrified of them.

It's always a balancing act of showing too much respect and being too defensive and negative or not enough respect and going too attacking and cavalier. If you go too far either way it goes wrong. Everyone is looking for the sweet spot between the two, a couple if times this season we found it but I think more often than not we have been too negative. We aren't good enough defensively to grind out results like we did last year, I'm not expecting us to go kamikaze attack but I think we need to show consistency in being positive and brave, from game to game rather than once every now and then.

But surely that is down to the team evolving and is not something you can automatically instil in the team.

The reason for my post was that HWF was saying that the negative approach was being instilled in the team by the manager showing too much respect to other teams.

Having watched Leam on the side-lines there is no way I can accept that premise. He is constantly urging the players forward and occasionally his frustration shows, and he returns to the bench to consult his coaching team. It is apparent to anyone watching that the frustration comes from the players being unable to implement the game plan. Now, some of this, I accept is down to the players not being capable of doing what is asked, but on most occasions, it is because the opposition are simply better equipped to deal with our game plan, and sadly that was what I saw on Saturday. Watford simply had better quality in all areas of the pitch.

To go back to my initial point, we are still evolving, and this will cause the inconsistencies in performance from game to game. The players and coaching staff will be looking for this consistency, but it will not come automatically, it will take time and we need to be patient as fans and not be overly critical of individual performances.

We are only 17 games into the season, with 19 points on the board, and plenty to play for. There is plenty of time to gain that consistency of performance, and hopefully the last two games show we are on the right track.

As I say, I don't believe we are giving too much respect to teams, as we have shown on some occasions that we can match any of the big boys for effort, and indeed get in their faces, but lack that little bit of luck and quality to get the result.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Your right, it's been said a few times on here, that we need wingers to get to the byline and get crosses over to Magennis to play to his strength's, but apparently this is not the way Leam wants the Team to play.

The thing is Springy, Scully is not that type of player.

He won't get to the bye line and cross, his game is similar to McCleans at the moment where he cuts inside onto his right to get a shot off. He is essentially a right winger converted by Lincoln into a left sided player.

That is what the Lincoln fans were saying about him when we bought him, and he scored a number of goals in that guise.

 

[ManchesterLatic89]

The thing is Springy, Scully is not that type of player.

He won't get to the bye line and cross, his game is similar to McCleans at the moment where he cuts inside onto his right to get a shot off. He is essentially a right winger converted by Lincoln into a left sided player.

That is what the Lincoln fans were saying about him when we bought him, and he scored a number of goals in that guise.

I heard similar from Lincoln fans too online when they described what sort of player he was. When everyone is back fit after the WC break (touch wood) and when we have had a second pre season with the players (warm weather training camp for 3 weeks most likely with 3 or so friendlies included in that camp), id like to see us in a 4-2-3-1 formation. In this formation Scully on the left can cut in from out wide and hitting long shots from just outside the box and Lang can act as a traditional winger but also one who can drive into the penalty box with his dribbling. Would complement each other well potentially and then Broadhead playing centrally as a number 10 behind a main striker.

I said it in a big long post 5 or 6 weeks ago that this period between the September international break and the 4 week break for the World Cup which starts in mid November was going to be as much of a fact finding mission for Leam as much as a getting results on the board time of the season. Its difficult when we are playing games every 3 days like we have been the last 2 months or so to expect super consistency. Only side in Championship to come close to that are Burnley i would argue.

But i would hope that all the time during this hectic period and throughout all the squad rotation that we have had to do due to the scheduling that Leam has been taking onboard as much as he can about what a more settled and consistent starting side will look for us after the break and when the schedule is less punishing (as we then will be naming more unchanged sides from game to game)

That said, id like us to start Scully in the games against Blackpool and Stoke and maybe in a 4 man defensive formation with Scully as a left winger and McClean at left back (only because Bennett is also problematic there as well and Pearce is out of contention due to injury).

One thing i wouldnt mind seeing if we opt for a back 5 in these games (3 CBs and wingbacks) is maybe to try Edwards, who i think is nearing fitness again as a right wingback. As i think he has experience playing there before at one of his former clubs.

 

[springy-park]

The thing is Springy, Scully is not that type of player.

He won't get to the bye line and cross, his game is similar to McCleans at the moment where he cuts inside onto his right to get a shot off. He is essentially a right winger converted by Lincoln into a left sided player.

That is what the Lincoln fans were saying about him when we bought him, and he scored a number of goals in that guise.

The problem is we panicked at the 'Transfer Window' and we got players who will not fit into Leam's team, one of our main strikers Magennis is starved of proper service when he plays,
hoofing the ball up-field and hoping for the best is not working.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

But surely that is down to the team evolving and is not something you can automatically instil in the team.

The reason for my post was that HWF was saying that the negative approach was being instilled in the team by the manager showing too much respect to other teams.

Having watched Leam on the side-lines there is no way I can accept that premise. He is constantly urging the players forward and occasionally his frustration shows, and he returns to the bench to consult his coaching team. It is apparent to anyone watching that the frustration comes from the players being unable to implement the game plan. Now, some of this, I accept is down to the players not being capable of doing what is asked, but on most occasions, it is because the opposition are simply better equipped to deal with our game plan, and sadly that was what I saw on Saturday. Watford simply had better quality in all areas of the pitch.

To go back to my initial point, we are still evolving, and this will cause the inconsistencies in performance from game to game. The players and coaching staff will be looking for this consistency, but it will not come automatically, it will take time and we need to be patient as fans and not be overly critical of individual performances.

We are only 17 games into the season, with 19 points on the board, and plenty to play for. There is plenty of time to gain that consistency of performance, and hopefully the last two games show we are on the right track.

As I say, I don't believe we are giving too much respect to teams, as we have shown on some occasions that we can match any of the big boys for effort, and indeed get in their faces, but lack that little bit of luck and quality to get the result.

I think team selection, tactics, style of play, choice and timing of subs are often quite negative though. I think we're not really evolving much either.

You look at a team like Blackpool over last few years, then in L1 last year we had teams that had drastically inferior players to us able to play far better football than us and in the Championship this season teams with a stand in manager or a massive influx of new players able to play better football than us. So it shows you don't necessarily need drastically better quality of players or huge periods of time to be able to play reasonable pass and move football. Our two assistant managers have coached footballing teams, many of our players have played in footballing sides over their career and we have even occasionally show it ourselves last season or this for short spells. We certainly have the knowhow and ability to play more football and less long ball if we want to.

I remember having the conversation on here speaking about style of play at the start of last season and some folks said it was because it was a new set of players and it would improve in time when they got used to each other. But we largely play the same way now as we did back then.

I think at this point i believe our approach/ style of play isn't because we haven't got enough ability to play differently or we've not had enough time to get better at it. It seems we choose to play this way - I'm sure the manager is frustrated it's not working as he envisioned but I think we aren't really showing much sign of moving away from it. We keep tinkering with formation and players but we're not seeing much movement or patterns of play improving or developing. It's largely the same kick it long and battle.

 

[jeffs right]

Magennis gets loads of stick and I get some of it. One thing he can do is head a ball. Whenever we’ve got crosses in from further up the pitch he’s scored. I just think the way we play has never suited him, he isn’t a target man or a back to goal player. He’s played international football for years and some of the headers I’ve seen him score have been outstanding. He’s no world beater but if you can give him some decent balls to attack in the box then he’ll score a few. Will Keane is exactly the same. His biggest strength is running onto crosses rather than attacking balls from further back or trying to be a target man and playing with his back
to goal.

If he can head a ball then he needs someone who can beat men out wide and put crosses in for him. Maybe that's what Scully could do but don't hold your breath if he does come into the side because he will get played too deep and too far from the wing and won't be allowed to run at defenders to get in a position to push crosses in to the box. Plus we are not likely to do the strikingly obvious and drop McClean to the bench to be used as an impact sub.

 

[HudWiganFan]

Concur about Humps. He provides something different we don’t have. If anyone was to go out on loan it should have been Magennis as I said at the time. May as well run a sweepstake on which Scottish club Scully will end up on loan at the end of January,

Kilmarnock nailed on. Will then be replaced by another winger on the January deadline from Bristol Rovers who will make three substitute appearances before the end of the season and be loaned to Inverness in the summer.