O/T Covid-19 - Discussion for the duration of this crisis. | Page 33 | Vital Football

O/T Covid-19 - Discussion for the duration of this crisis.

The Americans have done the math. We need to get back to work. The UK will do the same. The EU has its head up its arse as always.

The trouble is the Libertarian's got Boris to back down on his measured course. Imperials modelling - which is only now being challenged, scared the living shite out of him.

I still would have preferred risking the herd immunity route for longer (as the Swedes are); only because we may well reduce deaths now, but come the second wave unless one of the four vaccines/treatments prove effective, it will make whatever the toll we have after this first wave look tiny.

Like you, I think we'll have no choice but to kickstart and ease the restrictions by the end of May.

Beyond that, our economy is virtually wiped out except for a few bedrock basics suppliers.
 
The cynical amongst us might think China engineered this, especially if they come out of it strong and get their industrial machine back in motion quickly.

They won't, they are struggling with this just like the rest and their production has taken a hit.

Even if they make a magical recovery, demand side has plummeted. They will be hit hardest.
 
The reality is that this coronavirus issue together with the imminent oil crisis will bring a lot of changes worldwide.

According to some scientists, it is believed that the combination of those two problems will bring wage reductions, worse working conditions, unemployment, poverty, contraction of the welfare state and social benefits as well as restrictions to people's freedoms and mobility.
 
From my viewpoint who gives a feck about globalisation...never ever open airports again ...let the planet repair the atmosphere....if people want to travel train and boat...stop feckin up the environment ...since this mayhem the sky has been crystal clear where i live....and so quiet without traffic noise...wonderful...there is always positives in adversity.
 
From my viewpoint who gives a feck about globalisation...never ever open airports again ...let the planet repair the atmosphere....if people want to travel train and boat...stop feckin up the environment ...since this mayhem the sky has been crystal clear where i live....and so quiet without traffic noise...wonderful...there is always positives in adversity.

I may think I could do without it but I'm not fully informed. I dont need to travel abroad, I have no problem with importing some foods, I think there are too many people living here, I would rather buy British goods if possible.
 
The reality is that this coronavirus issue together with the imminent oil crisis will bring a lot of changes worldwide.

According to some scientists, it is believed that the combination of those two problems will bring wage reductions, worse working conditions, unemployment, poverty, contraction of the welfare state and social benefits as well as restrictions to people's freedoms and mobility.
I think scientists have enough to answer for as it is...we will see how accurate they are in the coming months
 
Health workers on frontline to be tested in England

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52070199



So what do they do if 80% come back positive ?

In a sense, that would be a very good thing, because the fact that they have been working would mean that their symptoms are mild and within 14 days would be clear.

The more people we find that have had it or have it with mild symptoms, the better for everyone concerned. The bigger issue could well be if only a small number fall into that category.
 
I think scientists have enough to answer for as it is...we will see how accurate they are in the coming months

For the most part, they make informed guesses, but as they get better data - which is why it's so important that people use the covid19 app - they can be more accurate in its modeling and forecasting.

Clearly the main population centers are the epicenters of the spread, and I suspect that will only be brought under control with effective medication - the initiatives in this respect are moving fast and I'm still of a mind that within 6 months we'll be hearing positive news about potential mitigating treatments if not a vaccine itself - 4 are in trial now, and now that we understand it's DNA and RNA and the structure at an atomic level, as well as how it spreads and how it behaves, I'd bet we're (relatively) not that far from a series of solutions.

Once that happens, I suspect most will be surprised at how quickly normal human behavior and a surge in economic activity will follow., but of course until then it's rough and tough for everyone.

lots of lessons will be drawn from this and perhaps the biggest one is relying on cheap labour in China isn't smart. Trump has actually been warning the west of the inherent weakness of doing so and if he's around, I'd expect painful legislation that stops strategic investment in China for good.

China has a lot to account for, we cannot allow their poor hygiene and H&S to hurt us for the 4th/5th time in such a manner again.
 
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Just read this; our thinking is aligned:




Coronavirus may end up reinvigorating the economy, not destroying it


  • Jeremy%20Warner-S-small.png
26 March 2020 • 8:00pm


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Rishi Sunak, the Chancellor, has announced wide ranging measures to support wages during the crisis, including compensation for the self-employed
The cure is worse than the disease; saving Covid-19 victims comes at too high an economic price and may cost lives elsewhere; policymakers have succumbed to mass hysteria and hugely overreacted, and we would have been better off letting the epidemic run riot.
This is an idea that has gained a lot of traction in recent days. Despite its faintly distasteful connotations – with the old and vulnerable sacrificed so that the young and healthy can thrive – I even flirted with it myself as the inevitability of the current lockdown loomed into sight.
But it is also a flawed way of thinking about the economics of the pandemic. Dig down, and you find plenty of reasons to think that putting the economy into a medically induced coma, provided it doesn’t go on for too long – which it can’t, because public toleration is bound to be time limited – was not just unavoidable, but could ultimately prove powerfully beneficial.
After a decade of economic torpor, in which productivity and wages have gone nowhere, the cleansing impact of today’s cure might indeed be just what the doctor ordered. Here’s why.
Let’s start with the counterfactual. We cannot for now know what the path not taken would have looked like. But we can have a reasonable guess. The economy was already falling off a cliff from well before the lockdown came into force. Looking at the data emerging from Italy, individuals had taken matters into their own hands and radically changed their behaviour by not travelling, going to restaurants and socialising. Companies were cutting back accordingly.
A deep recession, requiring massive monetary and fiscal intervention, had become inevitable regardless of any imposed lockdown. Under the herd immunity approach, this self feeding hiatus could have gone on for a long time, and would undoubtedly have been deepened by images of an overwhelmed healthcare system struggling to cope with the surge of an unchecked epidemic.
That said, there is a perfectly valid discussion to be had over whether measures aimed at saving lives are in practice doing more harm than good. Sweden, for instance, has adopted a strategy that looks very similar to the more laissez faire approach the UK Government initially pursued before, on seeing the Italian experience, going into lockdown.
It’ll be interesting to see whether this is politically sustainable if Sweden’s death toll rises.
In a paper published this week, Philip Thomas, professor of risk management at Bristol University, argues that “protection schemes should not be put in place if their costs are large enough to cause the nation’s economic output to fall so significantly that it causes more loss of life than if the scheme had never been implemented”.
Thomas calculates this tipping point as being an economic contraction of 6.4 per cent or more, roughly similar to the downturn that occurred during the financial crisis. The Government needs to institute reasonable countermeasures against Covid-19, Thomas argues, but “it should also attempt to restrict the coming recession to not much worse than the 2007-2009 financial crash”.
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People taking cover in an underground station from air raids during World War Two. Despite its devastating effects, the war finally managed to banish the depression economics of the Thirties
The flaw in this assessment is that it depends on the assumption that a prolonged recession would cause more lives to be lost than are saved via the lockdown approach. This is a deeply questionable idea for which there is very little evidence. To the contrary, it may be that recessions improve life expectancy because of the extra welfare they give rise to.
Furthermore, what we are seeing is a deliberately induced recession, rather than one caused by the excesses of the business cycle. Provided that it is time limited, and steps are taken – as they have been almost everywhere – to prevent long term damage to supply, the economy will bounce back sharply once the restrictions are lifted.
In the meantime, we will have seen a massive injection of Government and central bank money into the economy. The costs to the public purse may look staggeringly high, yet they are in truth of no great significance in the long term and for now perfectly manageable – again assuming the lockdown persists for only as long as it takes for the NHS to achieve the capacity it needs to cope.
Once the economy comes back, some of this new money will unwind quite quickly, but a lot of it will persist, turbo-charging economic activity further out. The deflationary tendencies of the past decade will be washed away in the flood. It arguably took the Second World War finally to banish the depression economics of the 1930s. Ironically, that might be the coronavirus’s lasting effect too. The challenge might rapidly become one of containing the economic expansion, rather than supporting it.
A short, sharp recession might also achieve its natural Darwinian purpose of clearing out zombified deadwood from the economy. One of the financial crisis's most malign legacies – widespread debt forbearance – would finally be removed, thereby freeing up capital for innovation, revived productivity growth and new industries.
In the depths of a crisis, it is hard to see the sunlit uplands that lie beyond. But if we choose well in our policy response, they ought to be with us soon enough.
 
For the most part, they make informed guesses, but as they get better data - which is why it's so important that people use the covid19 app - they can be more accurate in its modeling and forecasting.

Clearly the main population centers are the epicenters of the spread, and I suspect that will only be brought under control with effective medication - the initiatives in this respect are moving fast and I'm still of a mind that within 6 months we'll be hearing positive news about potential mitigating treatments if not a vaccine itself - 4 are in trial now, and now that we understand it's DNA and RNA and the structure at an atomic level, as well as how it spreads and how it behaves, I'd bet we're (relatively) not that far from a series of solutions.

Once that happens, I suspect most will be surprised at how quickly normal human behavior and a surge in economic activity will follow., but of course until then it's rough and tough for everyone.

lots of lessons will be drawn from this and perhaps the biggest one is relying on cheap labour in China isn't smart. Trump has actually been warning the west of the inherent weakness of doing so and if he's around, I'd expect painful legislation that stops strategic investment in China for good.

China has a lot to account for, we cannot allow their poor hygiene and H&S to hurt us for the 4th/5th time in such a manner again.
It appears to me, and I may well be wrong, that when faced with the dire situations in China, Italy and now Spain we should have based our approach on the best practice implemented by those countries that have been most successful at containment such as South Korea and in Europe, Germany....what they have in common is massive testing of the general population and aggressive search and isolate of all positive tested individuals and their contacts....instead we are copying the strategy of Italy and Spain and being lead by statisticians who know they don’t have data worth a light at the moment due to lack of testing in the general population.

This may be an unfair and inaccurate view because Monday morning quarterbacks have a clearer view of past events, or think we do, but I don’t see any way our current approach is going to free-up anything this side of next year. There are various views as to when a vaccine may be available, but given the length of time clinical trials have to run some are saying next year at the earliest.

So in the end the choice would seem to be between saving the world economy or allowing a percentage of populations to die, which was the only real choice from day 1....what has failed is implementing the best approach to containment.
 
In a sense, that would be a very good thing, because the fact that they have been working would mean that their symptoms are mild and within 14 days would be clear.

The more people we find that have had it or have it with mild symptoms, the better for everyone concerned. The bigger issue could well be if only a small number fall into that category.



Thing is though EX, does this test show if you've had it or got it , or both ?

If it only shows if you've got it, well they test a frontline worker on Monday and they are clear, but it doesn't mean they can't get infected Tuesday or any day onwards.

And on my original point, if 80 % come back as showing positive , they will have to isolate that 80% and then how will they cope ?

It's very difficult.
 
It appears to me, and I may well be wrong, that when faced with the dire situations in China, Italy and now Spain we should have based our approach on the best practice implemented by those countries that have been most successful at containment such as South Korea and in Europe, Germany....what they have in common is massive testing of the general population and aggressive search and isolate of all positive tested individuals and their contacts....instead we are copying the strategy of Italy and Spain and being lead by statisticians who know they don’t have data worth a light at the moment due to lack of testing in the general population.

This may be an unfair and inaccurate view because Monday morning quarterbacks have a clearer view of past events, or think we do, but I don’t see any way our current approach is going to free-up anything this side of next year. There are various views as to when a vaccine may be available, but given the length of time clinical trials have to run some are saying next year at the earliest.

So, in the end, the choice would seem to be between saving the world economy or allowing a percentage of populations to die, which was the only real choice from day 1....what has failed is implementing the best approach to containment.

I think each country has some significant infrastructure and populous differences. South Korea's reserves of health equipment (and medics) are legendary, and it's been that way ever since the Korean war - I believe that and the Koreans understanding about how to follow national orders and war footing ethos has made a huge difference.

No other country had/has such an impressive readiness for such 'chemical/biological' war - hence their ability to react so impressively they way they did - you don't have to ask Koreans to follow the rules twice. Contrast that with the stupidity so many did and some still are displaying here.

To a certain extent, you can put the Germans in the same boat; their Health services have reserves of depth because of their richness that others can only dream about, again much of this was and is inherited from their attitudes to living on the edge of military threat for so long., much may also do with the simple fact of how much space they have compared to others.

I was all behind the herd immunity principle, but Boris crumbled under the weight of a report that said for it to work, he'd have to be responsible for anywhere between half a million and a million deaths.

Sweden has tried to strick to that approach but as their death rate climbed, yesterday they too crumbled and went into full lockdown.

But as you say, it would appear that those who can test and test again, seem to be getting a better outcome - although, I think it's much much more than that.

The bottom line is that we as citizens should be concerned about is that our vulnerability to deal with a biological threat is woeful and no strategic reserves were/are in place - if this was an act of war, we'd already have been overwhelmed, and that is particularly true of the leaders of the free world, the USA - as we fight back against this catastrophe, both the US strategic military planners and the Nato alliance should all be asking themselves some very hard questions. We've now shown China and Russia how easy it is to cripple us.

As for the vaccine (if it comes) I think there likely to better treatment combinations used at an earlier phase in the treatment that is most likely - it will be a stop-gap until a vaccine can be produced next year (I hope).

As our death rate climbs you have to wonder how much worse it will get on the second wave and also wonder if containment was the right thing to do.

A lot of very smart, better-informed people who finally see the big data picture will be focused on this as we move forward and we have to hope that this and the emerging use of AI and our advances we've made so far can come up with the right strategy so that we can deal with it better when it comes.

I should also add that for me this is a war, be it against a hidden enemy and that no matter how good your planning, once you engage the enemy, the plan starts unravelling; it's how you react after that which will make the difference.
 
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Thing is though EX, does this test show if you've had it or got it , or both ?

If it only shows if you've got it, well they test a frontline worker on Monday and they are clear, but it doesn't mean they can't get infected Tuesday or any day onwards.

And on my original point, if 80 % come back as showing positive , they will have to isolate that 80% and then how will they cope ?

It's very difficult.

As I understand it there are two basic different tests, one that will look for the antigen (means you've had it) and one that uses reactants to show if you have it now, perfection would be doing it everyday and Boch's new cartridge lead approach (rolling out soon) should give answers to both in 15 mins - so (if) when we have enough of their system, it's easy to see a day in the future when staff and critical workers could be tested everyday.

For now, all we can do is test and then test and test and try and capture as many infected as we can and then plan and react.
 
I think each country has some significant infrastructure and populous differences. South Korea's reserves of health equipment (and medics) are legendary, and it's been that way ever since the Korean war - I believe that and the Koreans understanding about how to follow national orders and war footing ethos has made a huge difference.

No other country had/has such an impressive readiness for such 'chemical/biological' war - hence their ability to react so impressively they way they did - you don't have to ask Koreans to follow the rules twice. Contrast that with the stupidity so many did and some still are displaying here.

To a certain extent, you can put the Germans in the same boat; their Health services have reserves of depth because of their richness that others can only dream about, again much of this was and is inherited from their attitudes to living on the edge of military threat for so long., much may also do with the simple fact of how much space they have compared to others.

I was all behind the herd immunity principle, but Boris crumbled under the weight of a report that said for it to work, he'd have to be responsible for anywhere between half a million and a million deaths.

Sweden has tried to strick to that approach but as their death rate climbed, yesterday they too crumbled and went into full lockdown.

But as you say, it would appear that those who can test and test again, seem to be getting a better outcome - although, I think it's much much more than that.

The bottom line is that we as citizens should be concerned about is that our vulnerability to deal with a biological threat is woeful and no strategic reserves were/are in place - if this was an act of war, we'd already have been overwhelmed, and that is particularly true of the leaders of the free world, the USA - as we fight back against this catastrophe, both the US strategic military planners and the Nato alliance should all be asking themselves some very hard questions. We've now shown China and Russia how easy it is to cripple us.

As for the vaccine (if it comes) I think there likely to better treatment combinations used at an earlier phase in the treatment that is most likely - it will be a stop-gap until a vaccine can be produced next year (I hope).

As our death rate climbs you have to wonder how much worse it will get on the second wave and also wonder if containment was the right thing to do.

A lot of very smart, better-informed people who finally see the big data picture will be focused on this as we move forward and we have to hope that this and the emerging use of AI and our advances we've made so far can come up with the right strategy so that we can deal with it better when it comes.

I should also add that for me this is a war, be it against a hidden enemy and that no matter how good your planning, once you engage the enemy, the plan starts unravelling; it's how you react after that which will make the difference.
Good points about the cultural differences and the reasons for the better preparedness of South Korea and Germany....we as a nation have forgotten what it means not to be prepared to defend ourselves and although this is not a bullets and bombs war it has, as you say, highlighted the lack of investment in what has become a strategic defence infrastructure...while Porton Down may have solutions for chemical weapon attacks from deadly viruses, this current one is more subtle but equally devastating in its social and economic consequences, so if something like this was to be deliberately unleashed it could be done without fear of retaliation as it is promoted as a natural occurrence albeit due to dodgy hygiene....hmmm I wonder how many of the Chinese politburo have contracted the disease?
 
This is also a good article as well - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...fic-advances-antibody-testing-virus-mutations

“The one thing that is worse than no test is a bad test,” Chris Whitty, England’s chief medical officer, said on Wednesday. In Spain, the government was forced to withdraw 9,000 Chinese-made coronavirus testing kits from use after it emerged that they had an accurate detection rate of just 30%

My feeling is that first of all the government are only talking about the 3.5m finger-prick antibody tests because there is a different overall strategy to get to the masses. Perhaps that is the Boch cartridge that Ex mentions.
 
This is also a good article as well - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...fic-advances-antibody-testing-virus-mutations

“The one thing that is worse than no test is a bad test,” Chris Whitty, England’s chief medical officer, said on Wednesday. In Spain, the government was forced to withdraw 9,000 Chinese-made coronavirus testing kits from use after it emerged that they had an accurate detection rate of just 30%

My feeling is that first of all the government are only talking about the 3.5m finger-prick antibody tests because there is a different overall strategy to get to the masses. Perhaps that is the Boch cartridge that Ex mentions.

Antigen Testing
Mr Gove gave an example of Boris Johnson still working hard despite self-isolation. "The Prime Minister has brought together businesses, research institutes, and universities in a new alliance to boost testing capacity for frontline workers. Increasing our testing capacity is absolutely crucial in our response to, and our fight against, coronavirus.

"This is a particular priority for those who work in the health and social care sector, and are working so hard to keep us all safe. This will be antigen testing, testing whether people currently have the disease, so that our health and social care workers can have security in the knowledge that they are safe to return to work if the test is negative.

"These tests will be trialled for people on the frontlines starting immediately with hundreds, taking place by the end of the weekend, dramatically scaling up next week."

NHS England Chief Executive Sir Simon Stevens added: "From an NHS perspective, we think it is urgently important that we are able to test frontline staff who are off sick or otherwise isolating. And that's why the work the Public Health England has been leading is so important because it means that we're going to be able to double, by this time next week, the number of tests compared to the number that we've been doing this week.

"And so I can say that today, we're announcing that we will be rolling out staff testing across the NHS beginning next week, starting with the critical care nurses, other staff in intensive care, emergency departments, ambulance services, GPs, and as the testing volumes continue to increase, we want to expand that to a wider range of essential public service workers, including our social care services, as well as, of course, continuing with the patient testing, which is so vital."
 
When comparing to other nations, I don't want the pendulum to swing the other way and we become the least tactile nation on the planet. It's certainly good for stopping the spread of microbes but will have a negative effect on our oxytocin levels. We seem to have spent a couple of generations encouraging people into our personal space. A hug, kiss on the cheek, a handshake etc has become the norm in our society compared to mid twentieth century.

One person I spoke to even theorised that we might even drop the formal handshake in business and replace it with a non-touching gesture.