A drinker like me

[BodyButter]

Agree, although I don't think the national health should have to pick up the bill for our informed decisions.

Anyone agree? Example, the bloke I talk about above.

It's fine if we had the money, but the country doesn't, so why not help those who want to help themselves?

That line is tricky to draw though. If you start refusing to treat people with self inflicted wounds, it could be stretched out to cover almost everything.

How about people who didn't mitigate their risk of heart disease because they didn't exercise regularly?

 

[col8]

I like a drink when doing something social, cider and rum were the order of the day last week as we went to the Regatta and spent evenings around the bandstand with a couple of cracking bands.

Next drink for me will prolly be Christmas and New Year.

 

[The Fear]

Agree BB. But if you are being given drugs for certain conditions repeatedly and still won't do anything to help, cut down on booze, lose some weight, eat better, should the NHS really keep paying just to prop them up?

It's a tough one for sure.

 

[kefkat]

I get why you think like that JF! Your on the side of unasked for health issues and you can't see where I am coming from. That is not saying your stupid cos you aren't (though some may different on here! Ha) It's just difficult for a person who isn't afflicted with addictive issues.

No one starts off this way or believes they will end up an addict of any sort be in alcohol drugs etc.

I know there is much help out there however a person has to want it. Not everyone does.

In some senses which won't make sense to you, those still drinking/using etc remind us of what we don't want to go back too.

Because we are a service country now and not industrial from the other side of the coin there is a hell of alot of people kept in work through it through services you wouldn't think of.

I am not saying it's fine the way these people live. I am saying there is so many ways to look at as well as the ridiculous cost.

Some of that cost though is wastage and also clerical people sitting in faceless offices who look at short term savings and don't weigh up the longer term advantages and savings of proper help which would profit everyone in the long run.

If they looked at the bigger longer term pictures then the powers that be would spend more which would be cost effective and give people happier more productive lives wgich would save money as the ripple effect of costs carry on through generations.

That's just another side of the coin view.

Just looked at your post and seen you put it's a tough one. Yes it is cos if you cut off treatments you then create other problems

 

[The Fear]

Yup, totally understand.

But the drugs just hold back the tide. The guy on that show the other day, I bet, wouldn't even committ to a ten minute walk every day.

You help people, you help them again, if they don't then help themselves, you move on - with the very limited resources - to those who will.

Part of the help I am talking it about is addiction.

Comes a time when though, people need to help themselves. If I take drugs, smoke etc, I would face the consequences quite happily. I had to pay to save my life so my experience is quite harsh.

The country just cannot afford the ageing population and the growing obesity problem and a lot of the obesity and illnesses following, is man made, poor diet, poor education and poor - sorry - attitude.

The country can't afford it.

 

[SKEGGY]

I’m not a huge drinker in fact I could quiet honestly say if another drop of alcohol never crossed my lips again I’d not be particularly bothered. I do sympahaise with anyone that does have a problem with the demon drink and I do view alcoholism as an illness.

 

[SKEGGY]

Agree, although I don't think the national health should have to pick up the bill for our informed decisions.

Anyone agree? Example, the bloke I talk about above.

It's fine if we had the money, but the country doesn't, so why not help those who want to help themselves?

Trouble is though addiction to food is such a hard thing to treat as you can’t obviously just not eat. The bloke you mentioned is obviously extremely addicted to food and his addiction has became all consuming and like a heroin addict he is constantly looking for his next fix. This is why mental health issues should be better funded this particular man could do with a few sessions with a psychologist/counsellor.

 

[kefkat]

I think one of the big difficulties there is, is everyone knows illegal drugs, are well, obviously illegal and you have to go out and find them and all the skulking around and stuff that goes on with that side of life.

Drink and food as Skeggy points out with food, is available everywhere and is legal. Obviously food has to be as we need it to live. We certainly don't need alcohol to live however it is readily available everywhere.

That is where alcohol is a bigger problem than drugs: many drug addicts get clean and then turn to drink because it is socially acceptable to drink. Our fellowship is full of dual addiction especially from the younger generation.

As for eating disorders: I don't have a stereo type eating disorder however eating well daily and properly has always been a struggle for me.

I used to be very slim and you would think there was nothing wrong with me but it was skinny fat as I believe they call it. My diet wasn't great in the later years of the marriage to the ex. I ran on coffee and cigs. I did eat but it wasn't a healthy balanced diet, even though I ensured the children were fed properly.

When I got sober, I started to eat more and as I have got older with health related problems I have put on weight. Even being in a happy contented marriage with Mr KK I could still comfort eat. I have always tried to do it right however I don't find it easy.

When I have excessive stress I don;'t eat. I can't. I didn't eat for 3 days after Mr KK passed in March. I couldn't get anything in me. I won't go into all the gory details as to why and the additional complications with certain health issues which exacerbate the problem.

In the end our eldest stood over me with homemade soup our DiL Mom sent down for me and he made me eat it. I managed to get that down and keep it in me.

Over the 4-5 week period David was in hospital and the few weeks after, I lost 2 stone in weight. I wouldn't advocate it. It wasn't done on purpose. I was running on adrenaline and stress. Before David passed I was eating small amounts but the weight just dropped off me as it used to when I was alot younger.

It's a complex situation. Today you really have to be at the rock bottom low end of the scale to get the correct impute as there is just no funding available.

 

[The Fear]

We pander to the poor me generations instead of educating and cracking down on the woeful shite that people pass through their mouths as food.

Diabetes and obesity is an epidemic.

I know all the counter arguments, but it's hardly led to a healthy society has it?

But I guess I'm straying here on the topic I begun.

 

[BodyButter]

Agree BB. But if you are being given drugs for certain conditions repeatedly and still won't do anything to help, cut down on booze, lose some weight, eat better, should the NHS really keep paying just to prop them up?

It's a tough one for sure.

I guess the help that those people need is mental rather than physical.

 

[The Fear]

those that do, I agree, need help.

We all know people who just won't help themselves though, don't give a toss, aren't addicted, they are just bone idol and bury their heads in the sand (or in a handful of drugs to solve the problems they are creating)

I don't believe you fine folks don't know what I'm on about here.

 

[BodyButter]

those that do, I agree, need help.

We all know people who just won't help themselves though, don't give a toss, aren't addicted, they are just bone idol and bury their heads in the sand (or in a handful of drugs to solve the problems they are creating)

I don't believe you fine folks don't know what I'm on about here.

Not all noses are like that. Lol

 

[BodyButter]

those that do, I agree, need help.

We all know people who just won't help themselves though, don't give a toss, aren't addicted, they are just bone idol and bury their heads in the sand (or in a handful of drugs to solve the problems they are creating)

I don't believe you fine folks don't know what I'm on about here.

This is going to take the thread way off topic but the US Army have an IQ test which they give to all applicants to determine which area of the army to put them in. If they score below 83, the Army can't take them. That's roughly 12% of the population who are too stupid to join the Army.

Those people are out there and are always looking for jobs or getting fired because they are just too stupid to do anything useful.

We have all met them. They always have some kind of stupid plan and then need someone else to pick up the pieces when it inevitably goes wrong.

A lot of them end up as addicts or in prison because they can't function in society.

We, as a species, have never been able to work out what to do with those people.

 

[The Fear]

ah right, so we 'remove' the 12% is what you are saying.

Harsh. But ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting stat that BB, hadn't read that before.

 

[BodyButter]

ah right, so we 'remove' the 12% is what you are saying.

Harsh. But ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting stat that BB, hadn't read that before.

I remember reading the autobiography of the former prison governer of the worst prison in Ireland, Mountjoy Prison. It was surprising how compassionate he was towards the prisoners. He felt that they were people who didn't know how to behave in society and had been bounced down the social care system until they ended up in prison.

There seems to be a correlation there between his views and the research on IQ among the prison population.

If that's the case, we may be better off all round to put people with low IQ in care villages to help them rather than punishing them for just not being smart enough to live a normal life.

Either that or march them into the sea. At least they wouldn't see it coming. Ba-doom tish!

 

[BodyButter]

I came across this today:

It's interesting how alcohol effected out species (assuming he is right). I've seen other videos talking about the invention of agriculture and how hunting and gathering had a lot more benefits so they didn't know why we started farming.

 

[mike_field]

Agree, although I don't think the national health should have to pick up the bill for our informed decisions.

Anyone agree? Example, the bloke I talk about above.

It's fine if we had the money, but the country doesn't, so why not help those who want to help themselves?

I do agree, but that's a far wider debate than booze.

We're into smoking, drugs, extreme sports - and once you change that NHS ethos given everyone pays in some capacity anyway irrespective of how they use the NHS, how long before it spans to other things like simply driving, construction workers and we go past insurances in a molly coddled world where irrespective of insurance and cover for your own misfortune or stupidity we then get into the realms of double charge or denial of service?

What I am all for is consequences of actions whilst under the influence and it's no surprise I drink! but if I need to go to A&E on the back of it I would expect free and fair treatment. I'd also expect a bill to arrive that week based on behaviour/treatment of staff/any damage or mess etc.

I know that wasn't exactly your point, but even if then people who won't help themselves when it comes to addiction can't be removed from society because addiction isn't solely their choice. It's more layered than that.

But there are things that can be done sensibly that we don't do and should.

 

[mike_field]

Agree BB. But if you are being given drugs for certain conditions repeatedly and still won't do anything to help, cut down on booze, lose some weight, eat better, should the NHS really keep paying just to prop them up?

It's a tough one for sure.

As you appreciate (I know) the counter argument from folks like that would be can I pay less tax?

And given the NHS can't agree on what's good/bad or how many units alcohol/chocolate/meat etc etc etc at least at this stage can people be judged at that level?

Something undoubtedly has to change though as we aren't even cutting (bad word) the pimple of mental health issues and demand, and through Alzheimer's issues etc so somewhere we cannot continue with the NHS as we are.

 

[mike_field]

Trouble is though addiction to food is such a hard thing to treat as you can’t obviously just not eat. The bloke you mentioned is obviously extremely addicted to food and his addiction has became all consuming and like a heroin addict he is constantly looking for his next fix. This is why mental health issues should be better funded this particular man could do with a few sessions with a psychologist/counsellor.

And it's also one story and generalisations shouldn't be made on that topic, nor should they on others.

It also doesn't take into account possible medical/mental issues that are the driver - it's not always choice as we see it as you point out.

If there was a quick fix we'd already know it.

 

[mike_field]

We pander to the poor me generations instead of educating and cracking down on the woeful shite that people pass through their mouths as food.

I don't get pandering, I'd argue the way society approaches things is tax and price out that the consumer bares for absolutely no benefit to themselves whatsoever.

Plastic = tax.
Sugar = tax.
Fags = tax.
Alcohol = tax.

And so on.

What about encourage companies to change, improve, reduce levels - yes the consumer might pay a price BUT it ceases to be an irrelevant price the Government largely benefits from. What is the focus and real desire here?

Not sure if it's still true today, but a few years ago the Gov tax on fags and alcohol combined led to a greater Treasury bonus than their spending on the NHS - so the NHS would've folded years ago if it hadn't have been for folks like me who avoid gambling etc as my few vices. And on top of covering the NHS I also help keep business going.

So why not hit manufacturers - not with fines - with dictated 12 month improvements where the addictive elements come out of the product. Or they stop plastic at source and find new ways of packaging.

Why are spirits taxed less in general than alcohol - don't MP's want to cough up more in their already subsidised Parliament bars as they sexually harass employees?

You're spot on - get healthy food at affordable prices to the masses, not the few.

That's not what the Gov wants and until that changes, nothing will.

If you earn a £1000 a week compared to £250 and you're addicted to fags, you can swallow the tax without it effecting your shopping. The addiction doesn't lessen and that's why the whole approach to this has been a clusterfuck on every level for the last decade plus.

MP's sip their expensive and subsidised alcohol et al daily, then wonder why benefits claimants don't use that money for what its intended....but the MP's won't give up their subsidy to save the country money will they.