Official Summer Friendlies thread | Page 15 | Vital Football

Official Summer Friendlies thread

Can’t say I am too worried about Ben’s height. After all Alan Wright was 3’6” and he didn’t do too bad as a full back.

Going forward I have no qualms about him but even allowing for what you say about two deep midfielders, the full back is the first line of defence when the ball goes wide and the full back needs to be able to defend.

Even if all he does is stand the opponent up and delay the cross he needs to know when to fall back, when to close, when to try for a tackle...

As you say Ben is adaptable but how much of the defensive side of the full back role can he learn in a pre-season? I guess we are about to find out.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Lots of people on twitter are praising the apparent new choir of music for when the players run out, while others are demanding that the team cannot run out to anything other than Born Slippy.

I've never really understood the attachment to that song. My memory is of it being the music the players ran out to in the Platt and Hart era- hardly a golden age of memories
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The Hart era was the nearest thing to a golden age we have had in the last 20 years - unless of course:
You only watched from your bathroom, and with no TV on, and with no glasses, and with your eyes closed, and with a bag over your head..
Then...if you squinted, and stretched the truth to unfeasible levels, and crossed your fingers, and wished really hard, and ignored the facts, and massaged the stats, and imagined really intensely...
I suppose you could make an argument for the golden era of Dour Doug?
But surely no one is that deluded?

No, surely no- one could be that deluded?
 
Basha73 said:
Can’t say I am too worried about Ben’s height. After all Alan Wright was 3’6” and he didn’t do too bad as a full back.

Going forward I have no qualms about him but even allowing for what you say about two deep midfielders, the full back is the first line of defence when the ball goes wide and the full back needs to be able to defend.

Even if all he does is stand the opponent up and delay the cross he needs to know when to fall back, when to close, when to try for a tackle...

As you say Ben is adaptable but how much of the defensive side of the full back role can he learn in a pre-season? I guess we are about to find out.
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No, first line of defence should be the attacking wide midfielder, especially if we play a pressing game. Tempo is dictated by the front 3. That aside, I do agree with everything else.
 
InvincibleBrianMan said:
The Hart era was the nearest thing to a golden age we have had in the last 20 years - unless of course:
You only watched from your bathroom, and with no TV on, and with no glasses, and with your eyes closed, and with a bag over your head..
Then...if you squinted, and stretched the truth to unfeasible levels, and crossed your fingers, and wished really hard, and ignored the facts, and massaged the stats, and imagined really intensely...
I suppose you could make an argument for the golden era of Dour Doug?
But surely no one is that deluded?

No, surely no- one could be that deluded?
Click to expand...

The Hart era was two relegation battles and a 6th place.

First Davies era was a 3rd and 6th place consecutively.

By that standard, it should be Pjanoo that everyone wants back
 
Calvin Plummer said:
No, first line of defence should be the attacking wide midfielder, especially if we play a pressing game. Tempo is dictated by the front 3. That aside, I do agree with everything else.
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True. I was just operating on the assumption that the front 3 would offer no protection. The Portuguese boys did look like they wanted to make an effort that way though so he may at least have s bit of help that way.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
The Hart era was two relegation battles and a 6th place.

First Davies era was a 3rd and 6th place consecutively.

By that standard, it should be Pjanoo that everyone wants back
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Silly sraw man argument mk.5063! No one is talking about Billy Davies!

There is a season in review video of the Hart play off season knocking about on YouTube, I watched it a couple of months back and was struck (again) by just how good we were.
If this multi-million quid side comes close to the footballing style and quality of that seasom, it will be rated as an unmitigated success by all right thinking parties...
The fact you deem to roll the Platt and Hart eras into one, shows up your fundimetap lack of footballing appreciation - your deliberate misrepresentation of the Hart era is possiblity the single most annoying thing about you as a poster.
You should seek out the vision and watch it with fresh eyes and try to be objective!
But you won't!
 
InvincibleBrianMan said:
Silly sraw man argument mk.5063! No one is talking about Billy Davies!

There is a season in review video of the Hart play off season knocking about on YouTube, I watched it a couple of months back and was struck (again) by just how good we were.
If this multi-million quid side comes close to the footballing style and quality of that seasom, it will be rated as an unmitigated success by all right thinking parties...
The fact you deem to roll the Platt and Hart eras into one, shows up your fundimetap lack of footballing appreciation - your deliberate misrepresentation of the Hart era is possiblity the single most annoying thing about you as a poster.
You should seek out the vision and watch it with fresh eyes and try to be objective!
But you won't!
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The subject of the conversation was opening music. I have joined the Hart and Platt eras together because they shared the same music- born slippy and Carmina Burana (and later 'the battle'). The only comparison has been with music so I'm not sure why you are getting so angry with that.

You are saying that the Hart era was the best we have had in 20 years. I disagree. I suggest you learn how to handle someone disagreeing with you without personal attacks and aggression.

Having seen the majority of games in both eras I say the first Davies era was significantly better. That is the case statistically in terms of results as well, as I have said. I would love to compare the two subjectively with you if you could be remotely capable of engaging in respectful debate. I somehow doubt you would afford that 'honour' to me unfortunately.
 

Who remembers when Bobby McKinlay used to lead us out to this tune? One ball between 11, run out at at a minute to 3, one shot at Grummitt and all the players had done the pre-match warm-up!
 
Pope John XXIII said:
The subject of the conversation was opening music. I have joined the Hart and Platt eras together because they shared the same music- born slippy and Carmina Burana (and later 'the battle'). The only comparison has been with music so I'm not sure why you are getting so angry with that.

You are saying that the Hart era was the best we have had in 20 years. I disagree. I suggest you learn how to handle someone disagreeing with you without personal attacks and aggression.

Having seen the majority of games in both eras I say the first Davies era was significantly better. That is the case statistically in terms of results as well, as I have said. I would love to compare the two subjectively with you if you could be remotely capable of engaging in respectful debate. I somehow doubt you would afford that 'honour' to me unfortunately.
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Not going to comment on the music, as not my cup of tea at all, prefers things a little heavier myself.

As for the Hart debate, statistically you can make a case that Billy's first year was more successful, however, personally I believe Harts playoff team was miles better and way more entertaining. Johnson, Marlon and Huckerbys front three were awesome.
 
InvincibleBrianMan said:
The Hart era was the nearest thing to a golden age we have had in the last 20 years - unless of course:
You only watched from your bathroom, and with no TV on, and with no glasses, and with your eyes closed, and with a bag over your head..
Then...if you squinted, and stretched the truth to unfeasible levels, and crossed your fingers, and wished really hard, and ignored the facts, and massaged the stats, and imagined really intensely...
I suppose you could make an argument for the golden era of Dour Doug?
But surely no one is that deluded?

No, surely no- one could be that deluded?
Click to expand...

"You only watched from your bathroom, and with no TV on, and with no glasses, and with your eyes closed, and with a bag over your head..
Then...if you squinted, and stretched the truth to unfeasible levels, and crossed your fingers, and wished really hard, and ignored the facts, and massaged the stats, and imagined really intensely..."

We still have a few on here who watch games through that medium
 
Must admit there are plenty of times Iin recent years I have wished I was watching with a bag over my head. Would have been better than some of the garbage we have been served up.

As for the Hart playoff side vs the Billy Davies side, well statistically yes Billy was ‘more successful’ but the fact is, for me anyway, the Hart side was far superior. It was the last time I really enjoyed watching Forest on a consistent basis.

For the most part the football was quality and opposing fans were usually full of praise for our side whatever the result. Under Billy there were some great games to but there was also the time wasting and the niggly ‘professionalism’

Maybe my memory has romanticised it but give me that Hart season any day...
 
Hardy Forest said:
Not going to comment on the music, as not my cup of tea at all, prefers things a little heavier myself.

As for the Hart debate, statistically you can make a case that Billy's first year was more successful, however, personally I believe Harts playoff team was miles better and way more entertaining. Johnson, Marlon and Huckerbys front three were awesome.
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Huckerby came late though- for most of the season it was Lester there.

Johnson and Harewood were awesome. The midfield was good.

There are similarities. Both teams were dire away from home. Hart's team won 5 away and I think Davies's team won four. But the Davies team always battled better away from home for me (and yes, I went regularly in both eras) whereas the Hart side seemed to lose so easily with a whimper. The Davies side also won 9 away the following year on the way to 6th place.

I think people have a lot of affection for that team because of the paternal nature of Paul Hart and the fact it was so home grown, and I get that. I was more involved and cut up about that Brammall lane game than I was in our dismal defeat to Blackpool.

But having been through both eras I think Davies was better. The football at its best was better than under Hart at its best. Cohen's goal at West Brom came from 9 one touch passes.
 
Lienking said:

Who remembers when Bobby McKinlay used to lead us out to this tune? One ball between 11, run out at at a minute to 3, one shot at Grummitt and all the players had done the pre-match warm-up!
Click to expand...

The only thing we should ever run out to, wonderful memories of Clough's teams coming out the tunnel to this and if it was around in Mckinlay's era must be the longest standing too
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Huckerby came late though- for most of the season it was Lester there.

Johnson and Harewood were awesome. The midfield was good.

There are similarities. Both teams were dire away from home. Hart's team won 5 away and I think Davies's team won four. But the Davies team always battled better away from home for me (and yes, I went regularly in both eras) whereas the Hart side seemed to lose so easily with a whimper. The Davies side also won 9 away the following year on the way to 6th place.

I think people have a lot of affection for that team because of the paternal nature of Paul Hart and the fact it was so home grown, and I get that. I was more involved and cut up about that Brammall lane game than I was in our dismal defeat to Blackpool.

But having been through both eras I think Davies was better. The football at its best was better than under Hart at its best. Cohen's goal at West Brom came from 9 one touch passes.
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I think the other problem for me, was that I hated Davies from the offset. He made us competitive yes, but overall I don't think there were too many great or exciting performances. Of course there were exceptions, you mention the WBA game rightly. But overall I felt it was percentage, niggly football. I hated our away performances on the whole as well. The play not to lose mentality doesn't do it for me really. The most negative I have ever seen us. The time wasting was frankly embarrassing, something I loath with a passion.
Whereas Harts side were exciting to watch on the whole. I do take your point about the away performances, they weren't great for a whole other set of reasons.
 
Hardy Forest said:
I think the other problem for me, was that I hated Davies from the offset. He made us competitive yes, but overall I don't think there were too many great or exciting performances. Of course there were exceptions, you mention the WBA game rightly. But overall I felt it was percentage, niggly football. I hated our away performances on the whole as well. The play not to lose mentality doesn't do it for me really. The most negative I have ever seen us. The time wasting was frankly embarrassing, something I loath with a passion.
Whereas Harts side were exciting to watch on the whole. I do take your point about the away performances, they weren't great for a whole other set of reasons.
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I never really felt that about the away performances under Davies. That has become the 'canon truth's but having gone to a fair few of those games it just didn't feel like it to me.

Remember that the season before we had avoided relegation a few days before the season finished. Before that we had been a league one club. We didn't have the luxury of the best crop of young players in our history, all signed as schoolboys while we were a premier league club. Our youngsters during the time of Davies were shite- Matt Thornhill was about the best of them.

So there were away games where forest really were far from the favourites. I don't blame him for playing the percentages there. But it wasn't the case that often.

Certainly the second season wasn't like that. We won 9 away. We won at pride park for the first time ever and deserved to. Our last game, which did have a bit riding on it, was a 3-0 win at Selhurst.

Hart's one season was based wholly on outstanding home form. Davies first season was too but the second season was more balanced. Hart also made a complete pig's ear of the second season
 
I still maintain the players should run out really quickly to the Benny Hill theme tune then chase the ref all round the pitch.
Would set the tone for a good afternoons entertainment.




How did Murphy miss that ?
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I never really felt that about the away performances under Davies. That has become the 'canon truth's but having gone to a fair few of those games it just didn't feel like it to me.

Remember that the season before we had avoided relegation a few days before the season finished. Before that we had been a league one club. We didn't have the luxury of the best crop of young players in our history, all signed as schoolboys while we were a premier league club. Our youngsters during the time of Davies were shite- Matt Thornhill was about the best of them.

So there were away games where forest really were far from the favourites. I don't blame him for playing the percentages there. But it wasn't the case that often.

Certainly the second season wasn't like that. We won 9 away. We won at pride park for the first time ever and deserved to. Our last game, which did have a bit riding on it, was a 3-0 win at Selhurst.

Hart's one season was based wholly on outstanding home form. Davies first season was too but the second season was more balanced. Hart also made a complete pig's ear of the second season
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I went to a lot of them myself and it felt like it to me. It hasn't become the cannon truth for me, as that's how I've always felt. It seemed like endless punts from McKenna into the corners. Constant delaying tactics, sometimes still in the first half!
Hey, I'm not blaming him. You use what you've got, and play to your strengths. But I do feel he is a short termism manager, but again, can't really blame him for that, he needed results or he was out of a job. It just wasn't for me.
 
Hardy Forest said:
I went to a lot of them myself and it felt like it to me. It hasn't become the cannon truth for me, as that's how I've always felt. It seemed like endless punts from McKenna into the corners. Constant delaying tactics, sometimes still in the first half!
Hey, I'm not blaming him. You use what you've got, and play to your strengths. But I do feel he is a short termism manager, but again, can't really blame him for that, he needed results or he was out of a job. It just wasn't for me.
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I don't think there is anything other than a short termist manager that is successful in the championship now.

Teams are built over a season or two at the most. You are fortunately to hold a side together long enough for three shots at it.

If the finances don't get you, the ambitions of your better players do.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I don't think there is anything other than a short termist manager that is successful in the championship now.

Teams are built over a season or two at the most. You are fortunately to hold a side together long enough for three shots at it.

If the finances don't get you, the ambitions of your better players do.
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Steve Bruce uses similar 'Billy' methods to great effect and he's very successful. To me it's about having a winning mentality and doing everything in your power to achieve a result.

Warburton seemed to think his remit was to buy average players and show a steady progress by playing passing type football which he assumed the fans would think was 'good' football. In actual fact his players were poor, his football boring as hell to watch and ineffectual. He didn't last long.
 
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