Who Says No Expectations | Vital Football

Who Says No Expectations

ZAKKY

Vital Football Hero
Martin Tarbuck in tonights 12th man WEP says

"If/when the new owners come in, I have no expectation whatsoever, from everything I hear, they will not be splashing the cash."

Someone on hear said the same the other day and others have commented. Ok so if the words out lets all hear about it instead of some inner circle throwing about tit bits if people know things they should be sharing it with all the people who raised the £800,000 or keep quiet till the owners speak to us all.
 
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It reads odd that, doesn't it. No expectations, but then a mention of cash being splashed. You'd have thought one (the latter) would have influenced the other (former).

I doubt if anyone who really knows anything is going to share it openly with everyone. Why would they? Granted, they may pass on little hints, but they often only serve to give us the three and fourpence scenario.

Can't be long now. .......surely.
 
It reads odd that, doesn't it. No expectations, but then a mention of cash being splashed. You'd have thought one (the latter) would have influenced the other (former).

I doubt if anyone who really knows anything is going to share it openly with everyone. Why would they? Granted, they may pass on little hints, but they often only serve to give us the three and fourpence scenario.

Can't be long now. .......surely.

I think it reads odd because the word THAT is missing, think it should be:

"If/when the new owners come in, I have no expectation whatsoever, from everything I hear, that they will be splashing the cash."

i.e. from what Jimmy hears, they will not be splashing the cash.
 
I’ve read that quote several times - at first I read it that they will, now I read it that they won’t splash the cash. Probably worthy of clarity. Probably the wep buggering up the piece.

It’s all relative I suppose. We won’t see a cash splurge like we enjoyed under DW, of that I’m certain. There will need to be some injection of funds otherwise we’ll drop to L2. I think the idea is to stabilise us and flog us as a Championship club - otherwise I’m struggling to see the point of buying us if there’s no emotional attachment. No issue with that approach personally given the situation we find ourselves in. I suppose we’ll only know the owners intentions if the deal goes through. For all we know they may be looking for other investors on the back of it. That said given the comments on the podcast referenced yesterday, seems to me there is some ‘issue’ most of us don’t yet know about.

As for the SC, whilst respecting confidentiality in regards the deal, giving a steer as to whether the 800 grand will be used or not shouldn’t be too difficult.
 
Martin Tarbuck in tonights 12th man WEP says

"If/when the new owners come in, I have no expectation whatsoever, from everything I hear, they will not be splashing the cash."

Someone on hear said the same the other day and others have commented. Ok so if the words out lets all hear about it instead of some inner circle throwing about tit bits if people know things they should be sharing it with all the people who raised the £800,000 or keep quiet till the owners speak to us all.
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I have no expectation whatsoever, from everything I hear, they will not be splashing the cash."
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This is what he meant
 
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I have no expectation whatsoever, from everything I hear, they will not be splashing the cash."
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This is what he meant

Makes more sense.
 
Did anyone genuinely think any new owner would be splashing the cash? If they did I think they completely misjudged our situation.

We are a loss making club, in a loss making league with very little revenue before covid lockdowns destroy the football and non football world economy. Breaking even pre covid would've been totally reliant on successfully playing money ball which we never managed previously so breaking even now is probably near impossible in our situation even with the 2.5m salary cap forcing us to run a very modest wage bill.

Whoever comes in is looking at 3.5m to buy us, and at least 5m but likely a lot more in loses over the next 2 seasons before paying a transfer fee. So anyone buying us is probably looking at throwing in about 10m with very little chance of return for the short term. So it may not feel like splashing the cash but if the new owners aren't transferring the cost of buying us onto the club as debt like Choi did just covering the running cost will be investing very heavily for them.

Even if Ganaye and the Americans got us their philosophy was self sufficiency as otherwise you are looking at losing even more than the 10m loss they'd initially have to factor in. Look at Barnsley for example they have very rich owners but since they arrived they have received more in player fees than they spent and still ran annual loses. While Luton's owners have no money and have spent very little yet Luton have done better than Barnsley over the last few years all things considered and both done much better than Sunderland who have a wage bill bigger than both combined in the league below. So it just goes to show that it doesn't matter how rich your owners are, as they may not be willing to spend it on the club and even if they do it doesn't guarantee success. I'd take a chairman with less money with good judgement and a strategy over a rich one with poor judgement who thinks they can easily spend their way to success.

I remember in one of the supposedly leaked messages it said Lenegan was planning to buy us, run us on a shoe string and rely on free transfers and the academy and some people seemed upset by that suggestion. But that was almost certainly going to be the same strategy that any new owner would be following and most of the other clubs at this level will already be doing or forced to do if they want to avoid going bust and fit into the salary cap.

Anyone who has so much money they are happy to burn through millions on a toy will likely have enough money to buy a better club than Wigan so we need to set our expectations accordingly. We are looking at either naive gamblers like Choi who invested heavily and then pulled out when he realised his plan to make a huge immediate return based on Premiership promotion was unrealistic. Or a pragmatic owner who appreciates the challenge of successfully running a club and will run us sensibly aiming for self sustainability and only getting returns over the long term. Assuming the owner is willing and able to cover the running costs for the foreseeable future the level of financial clout beyond that probably a lot less important than their intentions and strategy.


In this league remember only 2 clubs had a net transfer expenditure and that was just 200k a piece and 18 of the 24 clubs didn't recieved or pay a penny in transfer fees. There is no money in this league at all and spending your way out is not really an option anymore like we did in the past. Success at this level is going to be decided by good managers and clever recruitment. The wage cap means realistically clubs can't be massively out bidding each other on wages with the majority of players being forced into 2k a week or less as an average so in many instances the player will probably choose where they want to go as money won't be vastly different between clubs at the same level. In this instance if we get the ship back on course we are probably one of the more attractive clubs at this level and have a good shout at having our pick of the frees. If we werent hamstrung by administration I think just using frees and loans we could've easily recruited a strong L1 squad and picked up a decent name manager. So I do think just having getting back to level playing field will give us a better chance than most of the competition to attract players.

The marketing guy who arranged the deal, Cliveden, will be the guy running things if the take over happens. He said his investors had a successful model they used in Spain that they wanted to apply to a L1 or L2 club. He explicitly said they weren't going to be sugar daddies. So any talk of being underwhelmed in the sense of splashing cash makes me wonder if the issue is less that the new owner is that bad but more unrealistic expectations meeting reality.

Personally I have 4 expectations that I really hope to see:

1. The new ownership don't transfer debt into the club like Choi did

2. The new owners understand the financial realities of L1 football and are pragmatic with their expectations. AKA they aren't ignorant or naive enough to think they can quickly and easily flip the club for a profit any time soon.

3. They have an understanding of English lower league football on the pitch.

4. They treat the club with respect. Even if they see us as a busines venture to make profit I hope they appreciate that the club is more than just that to the fans and there is a certain duty of care that our previous owners didn't afford us.

I was a bit concerned at the news that Jose Cristo was buying us as I didn't think he'd likely be well up on L1 and feared he thought what worked in the Spanish 3rd tier could easily translate here without fully taking into account how different it will be. But the news that Cliveden was involved made me feel more comfortable as he has a long background in sports marketing including working in football and tried to buy us with other investors before Choi got us from Whelan. So he has clearly kept an eye on us for a good while and in theory should be fully aware of the realities of L1. He seems to believe Cristo's model will work here, hopefully he is right. So I've got an open mind and interested to see exactly what that involves.

Maybe the new ownership will be hopeless or maybe it will be great - we'll just have to see how it goes. But I think we are lucky to get a new owner at all as there is no money to be made in lower league football at the moment and risk of never getting a return on investment on buying us is very high. So I am just grateful we have a lifeline when Bury and Macclesfield went bust and judge the new owners on what they do once they get in place. If they have the finances to cover running costs, fully understand what they have got themselves into and treat the club with respect I'll be quite pleased.
 
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Did anyone genuinely think any new owner would be splashing the cash? If they did I think they completely misjudged our situation.

We are a loss making club, in a loss making league with very little revenue before covid lockdowns destroy the football and non football world economy. Breaking even pre covid would've been totally reliant on successfully playing money ball which we never managed previously so breaking even now is probably near impossible in our situation even with the 2.5m salary cap forcing us to run a very modest wage bill.

Whoever comes in is looking at 3.5m to buy us, and at least 5m but likely a lot more in loses over the next 2 seasons before paying a transfer fee. So anyone buying us is probably looking at throwing in about 10m with very little chance of return for the short term. So it may not feel like splashing the cash but if the new owners aren't transferring the cost of buying us onto the club as debt like Choi did just covering the running cost will be investing very heavily for them.

Even if Ganaye and the Americans got us their philosophy was self sufficiency as otherwise you are looking at losing even more than the 10m loss they'd initially have to factor in. Look at Barnsley for example they have very rich owners but since they arrived they have received more in player fees than they spent and still ran annual loses. While Luton's owners have no money and have spent very little yet Luton have done better than Barnsley over the last few years all things considered and both done much better than Sunderland who have a wage bill bigger than both combined in the league below. So it just goes to show that it doesn't matter how rich your owners are, as they may not be willing to spend it on the club and even if they do it doesn't guarantee success. I'd take a chairman with less money with good judgement and a strategy over a rich one with poor judgement who thinks they can easily spend their way to success.

I remember in one of the supposedly leaked messages it said Lenegan was planning to buy us, run us on a shoe string and rely on free transfers and the academy and some people seemed upset by that suggestion. But that was almost certainly going to be the same strategy that any new owner would be following and most of the other clubs at this level will already be doing or forced to do if they want to avoid going bust and fit into the salary cap.

Anyone who has so much money they are happy to burn through millions on a toy will likely have enough money to buy a better club than Wigan so we need to set our expectations accordingly. We are looking at either naive gamblers like Choi who invested heavily and then pulled out when he realised his plan to make a huge immediate return based on Premiership promotion was unrealistic. Or a pragmatic owner who appreciates the challenge of successfully running a club and will run us sensibly aiming for self sustainability and only getting returns over the long term. Assuming the owner is willing and able to cover the running costs for the foreseeable future the level of financial clout beyond that probably a lot less important than their intentions and strategy.


In this league remember only 2 clubs had a net transfer expenditure and that was just 200k a piece and 18 of the 24 clubs didn't recieved or pay a penny in transfer fees. There is no money in this league at all and spending your way out is not really an option anymore like we did in the past. Success at this level is going to be decided by good managers and clever recruitment. The wage cap means realistically clubs can't be massively out bidding each other on wages with the majority of players being forced into 2k a week or less as an average so in many instances the player will probably choose where they want to go as money won't be vastly different between clubs at the same level. In this instance if we get the ship back on course we are probably one of the more attractive clubs at this level and have a good shout at having our pick of the frees. If we werent hamstrung by administration I think just using frees and loans we could've easily recruited a strong L1 squad and picked up a decent name manager. So I do think just having getting back to level playing field will give us a better chance than most of the competition to attract players.

The marketing guy who arranged the deal, Cliveden, will be the guy running things if the take over happens. He said his investors had a successful model they used in Spain that they wanted to apply to a L1 or L2 club. He explicitly said they weren't going to be sugar daddies. So any talk of being underwhelmed in the sense of splashing cash makes me wonder if the issue is less that the new owner is that bad but more unrealistic expectations meeting reality.

Personally I have 4 expectations that I really hope to see:

1. The new ownership don't transfer debt into the club like Choi did

2. The new owners understand the financial realities of L1 football and are pragmatic with their expectations. AKA they aren't ignorant or naive enough to think they can quickly and easily flip the club for a profit any time soon.

3. They have an understanding of English lower league football on the pitch.

4. They treat the club with respect. Even if they see us as a busines venture to make profit I hope they appreciate that the club is more than just that to the fans and there is a certain duty of care that our previous owners didn't afford us.

I was a bit concerned at the news that Jose Cristo was buying us as I didn't think he'd likely be well up on L1 and feared he thought what worked in the Spanish 3rd tier could easily translate here without fully taking into account how different it will be. But the news that Cliveden was involved made me feel more comfortable as he has a long background in sports marketing including working in football and tried to buy us with other investors before Choi got us from Whelan. So he has clearly kept an eye on us for a good while and in theory should be fully aware of the realities of L1. He seems to believe Cristo's model will work here, hopefully he is right. So I've got an open mind and interested to see exactly what that involves.

Maybe the new ownership will be hopeless or maybe it will be great - we'll just have to see how it goes. But I think we are lucky to get a new owner at all as there is no money to be made in lower league football at the moment and risk of never getting a return on investment on buying us is very high. So I am just grateful we have a lifeline when Bury and Macclesfield went bust and judge the new owners on what they do once they get in place. If they have the finances to cover running costs, fully understand what they have got themselves into and treat the club with respect I'll be quite pleased.
Has the wage cap even been ratified ? Last I heard the PFA were challenging it, prior contracts were exempt and the "rules" were leaker than a colander !
 
Rich people don't get rich by wasting money. I will believe we have a buyer when I see them in the paper holding a shirt up ...until then I remain sceptical that the whole thing will go tits up and they toddle off into the sunset.
 
Martin Tarbuck in tonights 12th man WEP says

"If/when the new owners come in, I have no expectation whatsoever, from everything I hear, they will not be splashing the cash."

Someone on hear said the same the other day and others have commented. Ok so if the words out lets all hear about it instead of some inner circle throwing about tit bits if people know things they should be sharing it with all the people who raised the £800,000 or keep quiet till the owners speak to us all.

Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal....they have expectations...Great Expectations....whereas we live in hope. We want the new owners to add fuel to the fire of hope...that's all that warms our soul as fans.

'What larks, Pip' !
 
Has the wage cap even been ratified ? Last I heard the PFA were challenging it, prior contracts were exempt and the "rules" were leaker than a colander !

The wage cap was ratified by the clubs before the season started. The PFA challenge was announced but seems to have petered out and all clubs are now working towards complying.
 
Strongly reported n this mornings I (eye) that it only needs the EFL to give it their blessing and the deal is done. The new owners have given their assurance, that we will have as fans a representative on the BOARD.
We live in hope.
 
Strongly reported n this mornings I (eye) that it only needs the EFL to give it their blessing and the deal is done. The new owners have given their assurance, that we will have as fans a representative on the BOARD.
We live in hope.

Not sure what the benefit will be of having a fan representative on the board for us. The owners will get 600k+, the board member will have zero power and will not be able to prevent any future decisions. They may be able to influence minor points, but no majority shareholder on any board anywhere will bow to the whims or wants of a minor shareholder if it goes against their own wishes.
It's a token (but very expensive) position.
 
Not sure what the benefit will be of having a fan representative on the board for us. The owners will get 600k+, the board member will have zero power and will not be able to prevent any future decisions. They may be able to influence minor points, but no majority shareholder on any board anywhere will bow to the whims or wants of a minor shareholder if it goes against their own wishes.
It's a token (but very expensive) position.

My cynical thoughts exactly.
Nice way to save something off the bottom line by fooling gullible supporters who want to save their club. Dangle that carrot.

A previous (non supporter) example springs to mind.
The stadium Company .... Wigan Council were a minority shareholder. No board meeting ever held (I have this confirmed in writing too).
 
My cynical thoughts exactly.
Nice way to save something off the bottom line by fooling gullible supporters who want to save their club. Dangle that carrot.

A previous (non supporter) example springs to mind.
The stadium Company .... Wigan Council were a minority shareholder. No board meeting ever held (I have this confirmed in writing too).
Agreed. It’ll also give the new owners capital to run the club without putting any of their own cash in. Our money should be spent in a far better way than that.

The supporters club strike me as slightly gullible so I suspect they’ll go along with it as well. Trust me, the only thing they’ll be having a say in on the board are the colour designs of our future kits and whether goal music should still be used. Nothing of actual importance will be run by them.
 
Not sure what the benefit will be of having a fan representative on the board for us. The owners will get 600k+, the board member will have zero power and will not be able to prevent any future decisions. They may be able to influence minor points, but no majority shareholder on any board anywhere will bow to the whims or wants of a minor shareholder if it goes against their own wishes.
It's a token (but very expensive) position.

It depends on what is agreed. At other clubs with fans on the board they negotiated veto rights on certain things in exchange for the money. The Supporters Club have been talking to those fan trusts to work out what they can do.

They won't be putting in near 1m of crowd funded money without getting something meaningful in return.

I suspect the fans will get safeguards on many issues included in the board representation that go beyond a normal board members influence.
 
Agreed. It’ll also give the new owners capital to run the club without putting any of their own cash in. Our money should be spent in a far better way than that.

The supporters club strike me as slightly gullible so I suspect they’ll go along with it as well. Trust me, the only thing they’ll be having a say in on the board are the colour designs of our future kits and whether goal music should still be used. Nothing of actual importance will be run by them.

If we gave the new owners all our crowd fund money the new owners would still be looking to invest a bare minimum of 5m over the first year and at least an additional 2.5m every year after.

There is no way the new owners can avoid spending millions of their own money as our cash is a small portion of the cost of buying or running costs.
 
My cynical thoughts exactly.
Nice way to save something off the bottom line by fooling gullible supporters who want to save their club. Dangle that carrot.

A previous (non supporter) example springs to mind.
The stadium Company .... Wigan Council were a minority shareholder. No board meeting ever held (I have this confirmed in writing too).

Not sure I would be as cynical, although I do understand why you would be.

In Spain there seems to be a culture of getting local supporters involved in the running of the lower league clubs. It seems to instil a bond between the owners and the fans which works to the benefit of the club. Fans seem more involved and attached to the club and have a greater empathy if problems arise. I hope this is the model they are hoping to bring with them as we have always seen ourselves as a community or family club.

I am not sure what involvement a "fans" Director would have and what voting rights they would get but at least it is representation and a chance to put forward the views of the people with the greatest affinity to the club at the highest level. Whether they are listened to or not will depend on how the new owners see their role and how they see the future of the club going forward.
 
I would like to say that I have no beef with the supporters club themselves.
I think they have done a good job in difficult circumstances.
My comments were more to do with the way an organisation would treat minority interests "We have got your money now P*ss off"

More money would make supporter's voices a lot louder.

BTW Whatever happened to Jordy Hiwula ? I'm sure I saw him recently in the area.
 
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