Thought experiment | Page 8 | Vital Football

Thought experiment

Buddha said:
I direct you to post #56 on this thread.

Do not pass Go. Do not collect £200.
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So you didn't actually start with it took you a while then.

As usual you ignore all other points that don't suit your argument.

Do you accept that Iran is behind the rocket shelling?

That is the basis of Israel's response and the Iranians are using the Palestinians as Cannon fodder?

Just not seeing the big picture are we.
 
rambolerambole said:
So you didn't actually start with it took you a while then.

As usual you ignore all other points that don't suit your argument.

Do you accept that Iran is behind the rocket shelling?

That is the basis of Israel's response and the Iranians are using the Palestinians as Cannon fodder?

Just not seeing the big picture are we.
Click to expand...

Read the article I just posted if you're interested in the, 'big picture'.

But beware, it's (necessarily) quite a long read.
 
rambolerambole said:
I am asking YOU for YOUR opinion

Are you Jogill's love child?
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You're not really interested in my opinion. I don't believe you!

Even if I've got that wrong, I know from reading your posts that our opinions are so diametrically opposed, and that your position is so entrenched, that it seems like a waste of time offering you my opinion.

You said you wouldn't take me seriously until I had condemned Hamas* but when I referred you to my earlier (and pretty absolute) condemnation of them, you simply dismissed it.

I am no supporter of Hamas. I think that they are part of the problem, not part of the solution. However, I think that the attacks that they launch (attacks which can't be condoned but can be understood) are fuck all when compared with the attacks and evictions that the Palestinian people have been suffering for years and years at the hands of the Israeli military might.

You talk about Iran supplying Hamas but ignore that the US and UK** are supplying Israel.

Listen, it seems that we are coming from very different angles on this and have different perspectives. And we clearly have different opinions. But we have both condemned the Netanyahu regime and we have both condemned Hamas. So it seems we at least share some common ground there.

I want peace in the Middle East. I hope and trust you do too. So we have common ground there too.

Why don't we just leave it at that instead of pissing each other off?!


* there was a second part to what you said I'd need to do before you took me seriously, and that was to accept that had Hamas not fired rockets none of this would have happened. Well sorry, I refuse to accept such a simplistic analysis. And if that means you can't take me seriously, I'm not particularly bothered as it's mean I can't take you seriously either!

** https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/israel-gaza-uk-arms-exports-airstrikes-b1851734.html

and

https://caat.org.uk/resources/arming-apartheid/


P.S. No, I'm not jogills love child. As far as I know.
 
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Buddha said:
* there was a second part to what you said I'd need to do before you took me seriously, and that was to accept that had Hamas not fired rockets none of this would have happened. Well sorry, I refuse to accept such a simplistic analysis. And if that means you can't take me seriously, I'm not particularly bothered as it's mean I can't take you seriously either!

** https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/israel-gaza-uk-arms-exports-airstrikes-b1851734.html

and

https://caat.org.uk/resources/arming-apartheid/
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This is the problem with you started it, no you started it, type conflicts.

You need to understand why it's all happening, and just work to cut it off at the knees by coming together and getting round a table.

Nelson Mandela knew it, those involved in the Good Friday agreement knew it, and there will never be peace in Israel/Palestine until they know it too.
 
MedwayModernist said:
This is the problem with you started it, no you started it, type conflicts.

You need to understand why it's all happening, and just work to cut it off at the knees by coming together and getting round a table.

Nelson Mandela knew it, those involved in the Good Friday agreement knew it, and there will never be peace in Israel/Palestine until they know it too.
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Exactly that, MM.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, they came as close to that as they ever have during the 1990s. Then Rabin got assassinated.

The hatred is so entrenched on both sides now that it seems hopeless. And as a result loads of people, and children ffs, (the majority of whom are Palestinians) just keep getting killed.
 
Buddha said:
You're not really interested in my opinion. I don't believe you!

Even if I've got that wrong, I know from reading your posts that our opinions are so diametrically opposed, and that your position is so entrenched, that it seems like a waste of time offering you my opinion.

You said you wouldn't take me seriously until I had condemned Hamas* but when I referred you to my earlier (and pretty absolute) condemnation of them, you simply dismissed it.

I am no supporter of Hamas. I think that they are part of the problem, not part of the solution. However, I think that the attacks that they launch (attacks which can't be condoned but can be understood) are fuck all when compared with the attacks and evictions that the Palestinian people have been suffering for years and years at the hands of the Israeli military might.

You talk about Iran supplying Hamas but ignore that the US and UK** are supplying Israel.

Listen, it seems that we are coming from very different angles on this and have different perspectives. And we clearly have different opinions. But we have both condemned the Netanyahu regime and we have both condemned Hamas. So it seems we at least share some common ground there.

I want peace in the Middle East. I hope and trust you do too. So we have common ground there too.

Why don't we just leave it at that instead of pissing each other off?!


* there was a second part to what you said I'd need to do before you took me seriously, and that was to accept that had Hamas not fired rockets none of this would have happened. Well sorry, I refuse to accept such a simplistic analysis. And if that means you can't take me seriously, I'm not particularly bothered as it's mean I can't take you seriously either!

** https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/israel-gaza-uk-arms-exports-airstrikes-b1851734.html

and

https://caat.org.uk/resources/arming-apartheid/


P.S. No, I'm not jogills love child. As far as I know.
Click to expand...

I don't ignore US and UK selling them arms (have mentioned that before )

do not pass go do not collect 200

Israel is a legal state and can buy arms from who they like to defend their country from people who fire rockets at them and kill children (it works both ways) .

I don't agree with the way they have responded at all but you tell us what they should do to someone who keeps firing military grade weapons at them and o matter who much they talk to them won't stop?

That is the quandary we all find ourselves in.

Hamas will not stop. If you don't accept that you don't know anything about the Iranians and the way they work.

Hamas are pawns of the Iranians they are not freedom fighters they are involved in a religious of destruction akin to the Thirty years war in the Holy roman Empire. it is war about the destruction of the ideological opposition and when they have their Caliphate they will turn on Europe like the Ottomans did.

The only people who lose are the common people who do these moguls business for them because they are told its right.

I di not dismiss your point I merely pointed out you didn't open with it which on a subject like this you should always do. I am guilty of l missing it but tucked away that far in the debate it clearly isn't that important to you.

I value all opinions I may not agree with them or think them thought through. I am some times a bit strong on the pointing out of that but sorry thats just my personal flaw.
 
Buddha said:
The hatred is so entrenched on both sides (?) now that it seems hopeless. And as a result loads of people, and children ffs, (the majority of whom are Palestinians) just keep getting killed.
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Earlier, I did post a question along the lines of:
What evidence is there that Israeli / Jewish Primary School children are being taught (i.e. in schools) to "hate" Palestinians ?
 
Tarian said:
Earlier, I did post a question along the lines of:
What evidence is there that Israeli / Jewish Primary School children are being taught (i.e. in schools) to "hate" Palestinians ?
Click to expand...

Must have missed that, Tarian. Tbf, I don't always engage with your posts because your style often irritates me.

Couple of links here, though I don't doubt you'll dismiss them!

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190726-how-israel-teaches-its-children-to-hate/

https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/hate.html
 
rambolerambole said:
I don't ignore US and UK selling them arms (have mentioned that before )

do not pass go do not collect 200

Israel is a legal state and can buy arms from who they like to defend their country from people who fire rockets at them and kill children (it works both ways) .

I don't agree with the way they have responded at all but you tell us what they should do to someone who keeps firing military grade weapons at them and o matter who much they talk to them won't stop?

That is the quandary we all find ourselves in.

Hamas will not stop. If you don't accept that you don't know anything about the Iranians and the way they work.

Hamas are pawns of the Iranians they are not freedom fighters they are involved in a religious of destruction akin to the Thirty years war in the Holy roman Empire. it is war about the destruction of the ideological opposition and when they have their Caliphate they will turn on Europe like the Ottomans did.

The only people who lose are the common people who do these moguls business for them because they are told its right.

I di not dismiss your point I merely pointed out you didn't open with it which on a subject like this you should always do. I am guilty of l missing it but tucked away that far in the debate it clearly isn't that important to you.

I value all opinions I may not agree with them or think them thought through. I am some times a bit strong on the pointing out of that but sorry thats just my personal flaw.
Click to expand...

Like you, I see some value in all opinions, or at least am interested in hearing a diversity of opinions.

But you and I ain't gonna agree about this and at the moment I'm under the impression that you don't even take me seriously!

I'm therefore happy, as I said before, to simply accept the common ground we have found.

I do definitely agree with you about Hamas though. Read (if you haven't already) the article I linked at post #56, especially the bit that is subtitled, 'Resilience amidst the chaos'.
 
rambolerambole said:
I don't ignore US and UK selling them arms (have mentioned that before )

do not pass go do not collect 200

Israel is a legal state and can buy arms from who they like to defend their country from people who fire rockets at them and kill children (it works both ways) .

I don't agree with the way they have responded at all but you tell us what they should do to someone who keeps firing military grade weapons at them and o matter who much they talk to them won't stop?

That is the quandary we all find ourselves in.

Hamas will not stop. If you don't accept that you don't know anything about the Iranians and the way they work.

Hamas are pawns of the Iranians they are not freedom fighters they are involved in a religious of destruction akin to the Thirty years war in the Holy roman Empire. it is war about the destruction of the ideological opposition and when they have their Caliphate they will turn on Europe like the Ottomans did.

The only people who lose are the common people who do these moguls business for them because they are told its right.

I di not dismiss your point I merely pointed out you didn't open with it which on a subject like this you should always do. I am guilty of l missing it but tucked away that far in the debate it clearly isn't that important to you.

I value all opinions I may not agree with them or think them thought through. I am some times a bit strong on the pointing out of that but sorry thats just my personal flaw.
Click to expand...
Israel is actually a large arms exporter.
Eighth largest in the world I believe.
 
Tarian said:
Earlier, I did post a question along the lines of:
What evidence is there that Israeli / Jewish Primary School children are being taught (i.e. in schools) to "hate" Palestinians ?
Click to expand...

Seriously?

The ideological right wing branch of Israelis are as extreme as Hamas.

They will never gain control but will deal with people like Netanyahu.

Netanyahu encouraged by Trump has pushed the agenda even further.

It's not just Islam they seek to push out of Jerusalem they are doing a fair old job on the orthodox Christians as well.

Neither side is devoid of ideological practices and the dark side of them as well.

Religion is the root of major evil all in this world.
 
rambolerambole said:
Seriously?

The ideological right wing branch of Israelis are as extreme as Hamas.

They will never gain control but will deal with people like Netanyahu.

Netanyahu encouraged by Trump has pushed the agenda even further.

It's not just Islam they seek to push out of Jerusalem they are doing a fair old job on the orthodox Christians as well.

Neither side is devoid of ideological practices and the dark side of them as well.

Religion is the root of major evil all in this world.
Click to expand...
 
rambolerambole said:
Seriously?

The ideological right wing branch of Israelis are as extreme as Hamas.

They will never gain control but will deal with people like Netanyahu.

Netanyahu encouraged by Trump has pushed the agenda even further.

It's not just Islam they seek to push out of Jerusalem they are doing a fair old job on the orthodox Christians as well.

Neither side is devoid of ideological practices and the dark side of them as well.

Religion is the root of major evil all in this world.
Click to expand...

Good post, rambolerambole. And agree with your last sentence if you add the word 'organised' before religon. Not the only root of major evil but organised religion has a helluva lot to answer for.

Have a read of this article - it's very critical of Hamas - and let me know what you think?
https://www.angryworkers.org/2021/05/25/editorial-3-palestine-israel/
 
Buddha said:
Good post, rambolerambole. And agree with your last sentence if you add the word 'organised' before religon. Not the only root of major evil but organised religion has a helluva lot to answer for.

Have a read of this article - it's very critical of Hamas - and let me know what you think?
https://www.angryworkers.org/2021/05/25/editorial-3-palestine-israel/
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Whilst i agree the narrative in terms of what is afoot and that Hamas are just doing Iran's dirty business for them (and that Fatah are no better just more aligned to Saudi Arabia than Hamas) I don't really see any credible response to how the situation should be solved.

The "Wolfie Smith freedom for Tooting Brigade" at their finest.

If you refuse to load goods to Israel you equally have to refuse to load goods for Gaza. Such actions don't hurt Israel and are thus pointless as no one is aware of them and would starve Gaza.

Jackie Robinson achieved more by just playing than he ever did by protesting and he knew that. it took 30 years to stop the lynchings but stop they did.

How we do that in this situation I really don't know but that is the best example i can give at this point.
 
rambolerambole said:
Whilst i agree the narrative in terms of what is afoot and that Hamas are just doing Iran's dirty business for them (and that Fatah are no better just more aligned to Saudi Arabia than Hamas) I don't really see any credible response to how the situation should be solved.

The "Wolfie Smith freedom for Tooting Brigade" at their finest.

If you refuse to load goods to Israel you equally have to refuse to load goods for Gaza. Such actions don't hurt Israel and are thus pointless as no one is aware of them and would starve Gaza.

Jackie Robinson achieved more by just playing than he ever did by protesting and he knew that. it took 30 years to stop the lynchings but stop they did.

How we do that in this situation I really don't know but that is the best example i can give at this point.
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Cheers. The Wolfie Smith comment made me laugh.
 
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