Things Aren't Right - Sept Thread | Vital Football

Things Aren't Right - Sept Thread

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
So, I've been rebuked because I'm not happy clapping at the moment. I don't feel things have been 'right' and for some, including my very good buddy Deano, some have read into that I mean the team spirit/dressing room has problems. I cannot for the life of me see why what I'm saying has been interpreted that way.

I'm not happy clapping, but I'm also not all doom. I'm just realistic. This league doesn't wait for you to catch up on fitness, or to learn, or gel, it carries on without you.

The only thing I've commented on in that respect, is the flash point between El Ghazi and Mings. I said I want to see players fighting FOR each other, not fighting each other, that isn't any good for team unity. But it was a tiny (we hope) flashpoint and looks like it was dealt with very quickly. I don't mind seeing passion and I do want to see players who look like they give a shite, unlike the dross we've seen for way too many years.

I've heard nothing and I've not said anything at all about things not being right in the squad.

I've also pointed out positives and even in the Arsenal thread down to ten men, although we should have held on, I did point out they have 10 VERY expensive and experienced players.

But my opinions are balanced as far as I am concerned and actually, I've said nothing that Mings and McGinn haven't after a second poor performance v 10 men. They questioned fitness and mentality.

It is ok to question things without being a doom monger. We are a few wins away from being fine, we are a few more losses away from not being fine. That's football and this league is unforgiving.

People are saying our defence looks solid, based on what? Because in the next breath the same are saying it is just silly mistakes. Well, if we are making silly mistakes in defence, then it doesn't look solid. It has the potential to be solid, if they can stop the silly mistakes. Will they? I don't know.

That's not unreasonable is it? That's not slagging them off? I like Mings a hell of a lot, if we'd not got up, we'd not have kept him. And Engles looks a great buy. But I am quite, quite sure they aren't patting themselves on the back saying how solid they have been, nor will JT be doing that.

I don't things are right.

We haven't been fit enough, our stamina (as ironside says in the Arsenal thread) hasn't been there and we've faded on 70 odd mins. The other teams haven't, so we need to get up to speed and damn quick.

Now, for me, starting the season with just one new striker looked a risk. He might be the best thing ever once settled, we have no way of knowing, he hasn't got experience at this level. Some of you have ripped him apart to be fair. I like the fact in his two goals he's moved to the ball, not done what so many of our strikers have done over the years and waiting for the ball to come to them. That shows promise. He has also, at times, looked slow and hasn't held the ball up brilliantly. It was a gamble, was it not, to just get one striker in?

Yes, we have Kodjia. Will he ever be the player he was before his serious ankle injuries? :shrug: So there is your next gamble. Can he light up the Prem? Maybe he can, he has skills no doubt, quite often in bursts but then, that's ok. But he also looks devoid of luck, just as he gets back to fitness, he has a freak injury and breaks his cheekbone.

Then we have a youngster in Keinan who for me, (not just for me, he didn't hold down his place when given a chance, so for the managers as well) he didn't light up the Championship, so can we really put our faith in him that he will the Premier League? He might become a great player, I hope he does, but he is the same age as Tammy Abraham (21) and look at the difference.

And then we have the squad. I haven't waxed lyrical OR slated the new signings because I have been honest, I don't know them and I don't judge players by youtube. I have read about them, I have hopes for them, but none (Heaton aside and what a great signing) have Premier League experience. Sorry, that to me is folly. It might prove to be great, but it is/was a gamble and 4 points in 18 shows we haven't hit the ground running.

Would it have been that unreasonable to get some Prem experience in the mix?

The Club can't really help the fact that we have had to rip the Champ side apart and start afresh, but a bit of experience would have helped. Man City when they started spending big with new owners concentrated on Prem experience AND THEN they branched out to the world class foreign players.

I think our plan is to buy players with sell on values. Ok, I get that. But one can question lightly, why? What is the plan of the owners. To get to the top of the league? To win things? To get towards the top and be sustainable? Dunno, excited to find out, I've been lucky enough to meet them, meet the ceo, meet new staff and I like them. But I liked Randy et al, I liked wasn't anti some under the awful Xia lot either. In other words, we have our hopes and dreams, but only time will tell. I am sure, like Randy before him (Xia purposely left out) they have great intentions. They nor us know if they will end up fruitful or not. Edens record in the States suggests great promise.

The manager? I'd have moved heaven and earth for Brendan Rodgers as I said at the time. With our sort of money, I think we could have got his ilk and showed intention. However, I like Smith, I like the fact, albeit it isn't the be-all and end-all, that he is Villa. But he's on a learning curve also, same as players. How long in this league do you get to learn? Not long, it is unforgiving and it doesn't take much to scupper a season. It was him turning things around, after a turgrid time, and the 10 win run that got us in with the chance of promotion. I'm realistic this season, not ultra positive, because at the end of the day, we were 5th last year, it isn't as if we walked the league and have a sense of entitlement. Even those who did walk the league don't have that.

Yes, we've had some bad luck ref wise, but then other teams have, even against us, the West Ham second yellow/sending off was never a red.

SO.

I didn't expect anything from Spurs or Arsenal, so as per my comments in the threads, I could hardly get angry when we got nothing. The hope does kill and we had great hope during the Arsenal game. I think we went on the back foot, wrongly and invited them on. You never invite quality like that on. Some said they were dirty, look at their card tally. I wouldn't be that bothered if our team got a bit more stuck in and got dirty as well. We are fighting for dear life this year to stay up, in order to - we hope - consolidate and start building.

The next three games are absolutely crucial are they not? 2 wins and a draw, or 3 wins. All will be fine, as we then get to games that I don't even see as a free hit, Liverpool and Man City are a different league to all other clubs at the moment in my humble, which is part of the reason I'm no longer a big fan of the Prem League, the league I know we HAVE to be in.

There is no reason why we can't beat Burnley, Norwich and B&HA. It is a tough league though, there is no reason why they can't beat us.

Imagine how 3 wins would set us up! Then, things will start to look a bit more 'right'. They need to look at these as three Cup Finals, because if you look at our fixtures after that, they are extremely tough (although Wolves and Newcastle are also within that run and we can get points there)

We need to get some points on the board before the tough games. If not, although we'll try, we might need to wait until Dec 14th v Sheff Utd, then Saints, Norwich, Watford, Burnley to get a run of results again.

:utv:
 
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Great post and I agree with 90% of what you said, minus your questions over Smith and the owners intentions for buying the players they did.

Crucially, yeah we need to win the next three. And yes, it is an absolute need before that tough run. If we don't get three wins in the next three, I'd give us very little chance of staying up. But then again this time last year I'd written us off for another year of championshit football.
 
Mostly agree but I don't think the VAR/refereeing decisions can be understated. They materially cost us against Palace and the chance of an equaliser at Arsenal. Genuine, match/result-changing errors.

The West Ham guy getting a soft yellow didn't alter the game in any shape or form as far as I am concerned.

But your broad point about the lack of experience is the key here, and the lack of striking options is indeed bewildering, considering the amount of money spent and the players we did sign.

We could really do with 7 points minimum from the next three games, but it won't be easy, no games are at this level.

I do think Dean Smith needs to reassess our formation - Wesley is far too isolated during games and Jack and SJM need to be in advanced areas at all times - Arsenal, for example, couldn't live with us for long periods when Jack was bursting forward and McGinn was much higher up the pitch.

There has to be room in the side for Nakamba AND Luiz imho, probably at the expense of El Ghazi (although he and Trezeguet look pretty interchangeable).

So something along the lines of:
Heaton
Guilbert/Engels/Mings/Targett
Luiz/Nakamba
McGinn/Grealish/Trezeguet
Wesley would be my preferred XI.
 
Great post and I agree with 90% of what you said, minus your questions over Smith and the owners intentions for buying the players they did.

:thumbup:

Cheers ldg... yeah, not really got 'questions' over them so to speak, as I say with Edens track record in the US of A, it bodes well. Just really think with any owners/ceo's/managers/players it really is time will tell. We've all done the ultra positive stuff before and it doesn't always pan out. Think I'm just being a bit calmer and hoping!
 
Mostly agree but I don't think the VAR/refereeing decisions can be understated. They materially cost us against Palace and the chance of an equaliser at Arsenal. Genuine, match/result-changing errors.

The West Ham guy getting a soft yellow didn't alter the game in any shape or form as far as I am concerned.

Fair comment mate, for sure they were blows.

I would argue, for West Ham that decision might have made a difference for them, for the result.

Do these things even themselves out over a season? I'm never sure, bad luck/good luck, is random. Maybe we'll get something in our favour at some point, hope so.
 
So, I've been rebuked because I'm not happy clapping at the moment. I don't feel things have been 'right' and for some, including my very good buddy Deano, some have read into that I mean the team spirit/dressing room has problems. I cannot for the life of me see why what I'm saying has been interpreted that way.

I'm not happy clapping, but I'm also not all doom. I'm just realistic. This league doesn't wait for you to catch up on fitness, or to learn, or gel, it carries on without you.

The only thing I've commented on in that respect, is the flash point between El Ghazi and Mings. I said I want to see players fighting FOR each other, not fighting each other, that isn't any good for team unity. But it was a tiny (we hope) flashpoint and looks like it was dealt with very quickly. I don't mind seeing passion and I do want to see players who look like they give a shite, unlike the dross we've seen for way too many years.

I've heard nothing and I've not said anything at all about things not being right in the squad.

I've also pointed out positives and even in the Arsenal thread down to ten men, although we should have held on, I did point out they have 10 VERY expensive and experienced players.

But my opinions are balanced as far as I am concerned and actually, I've said nothing that Mings and McGinn haven't after a second poor performance v 10 men. They questioned fitness and mentality.

It is ok to question things without being a doom monger. We are a few wins away from being fine, we are a few more losses away from not being fine. That's football and this league is unforgiving.

People are saying our defence looks solid, based on what? Because in the next breath the same are saying it is just silly mistakes. Well, if we are making silly mistakes in defence, then it doesn't look solid. It has the potential to be solid, if they can stop the silly mistakes. Will they? I don't know.

That's not unreasonable is it? That's not slagging them off? I like Mings a hell of a lot, if we'd not got up, we'd not have kept him. And Engles looks a great buy. But I am quite, quite sure they aren't patting themselves on the back saying how solid they have been, nor will JT be doing that.

I don't things are right. That annoys my erstwhile colleague. But I guess I can't help how he's interpreted that, but I can explain.

We haven't been fit enough, our stamina (as ironside says in the Arsenal thread) hasn't been there and we've faded on 70 odd mins. The other teams haven't, so we need to get up to speed and damn quick.

Now, for me, starting the season with just one new striker looked a risk. He might be the best thing ever once settled, we have no way of knowing, he hasn't got experience at this level. Some of you have ripped him apart to be fair. I like the fact in his two goals he's moved to the ball, not done what so many of our strikers have done over the years and waiting for the ball to come to them. That shows promise. He has also, at times, looked slow and hasn't held the ball up brilliantly. It was a gamble, was it not, to just get one striker in?

Yes, we have Kodjia. Will he ever be the player he was before his serious ankle injuries? :shrug: So there is your next gamble. Can he light up the Prem? Maybe he can, he has skills no doubt, quite often in bursts but then, that's ok. But he also looks devoid of luck, just as he gets back to fitness, he has a freak injury and breaks his cheekbone.

Then we have a youngster in Keinan who for me, (not just for me, he didn't hold down his place when given a chance, so for the managers as well) he didn't light up the Championship, so can we really put our faith in him that he will the Premier League? He might become a great player, I hope he does, but he is the same age as Tammy Abraham (21) and look at the difference.

And then we have the squad. I haven't waxed lyrical OR slated the new signings because I have been honest, I don't know them and I don't judge players by youtube. I have read about them, I have hopes for them, but none (Heaton aside and what a great signing) have Premier League experience. Sorry, that to me is folly. It might prove to be great, but it is/was a gamble and 4 points in 18 shows we haven't hit the ground running.

Would it have been that unreasonable to get some Prem experience in the mix?

The Club can't really help the fact that we have had to rip the Champ side apart and start afresh, but a bit of experience would have helped. Man City when they started spending big with new owners concentrated on Prem experience AND THEN they branched out to the world class foreign players.

I think our plan is to buy players with sell on values. Ok, I get that. But one can question lightly, why? What is the plan of the owners. To get to the top of the league? To win things? To get towards the top and be sustainable? Dunno, excited to find out, I've been lucky enough to meet them, meet the ceo, meet new staff and I like them. But I liked Randy et al, I liked wasn't anti some under the awful Xia lot either. In other words, we have our hopes and dreams, but only time will tell. I am sure, like Randy before him (Xia purposely left out) they have great intentions. They nor us know if they will end up fruitful or not. Edens record in the States suggests great promise.

The manager? I'd have moved heaven and earth for Brendan Rodgers as I said at the time. With our sort of money, I think we could have got his ilk and showed intention. However, I like Smith, I like the fact, albeit it isn't the be-all and end-all, that he is Villa. But he's on a learning curve also, same as players. How long in this league do you get to learn? Not long, it is unforgiving and it doesn't take much to scupper a season. It was him turning things around, after a turgrid time, and the 10 win run that got us in with the chance of promotion. I'm realistic this season, not ultra positive, because at the end of the day, we were 5th last year, it isn't as if we walked the league and have a sense of entitlement. Even those who did walk the league don't have that.

Yes, we've had some bad luck ref wise, but then other teams have, even against us, the West Ham second yellow/sending off was never a red.

SO.

I didn't expect anything from Spurs or Arsenal, so as per my comments in the threads, I could hardly get angry when we got nothing. The hope does kill and we had great hope during the Arsenal game. I think we went on the back foot, wrongly and invited them on. You never invite quality like that on. Some said they were dirty, look at their card tally. I wouldn't be that bothered if our team got a bit more stuck in and got dirty as well. We are fighting for dear life this year to stay up, in order to - we hope - consolidate and start building.

The next three games are absolutely crucial are they not? 2 wins and a draw, or 3 wins. All will be fine, as we then get to games that I don't even see as a free hit, Liverpool and Man City are a different league to all other clubs at the moment in my humble, which is part of the reason I'm no longer a big fan of the Prem League, the league I know we HAVE to be in.

There is no reason why we can't beat Burnley, Norwich and B&HA. It is a tough league though, there is no reason why they can't beat us.

Imagine how 3 wins would set us up! Then, things will start to look a bit more 'right'. They need to look at these as three Cup Finals, because if you look at our fixtures after that, they are extremely tough (although Wolves and Newcastle are also within that run and we can get points there)

We need to get some points on the board before the tough games. If not, although we'll try, we might need to wait until Dec 14th v Sheff Utd, then Saints, Norwich, Watford, Burnley to get a run of results again.

:utv:

tl;dr :lol:
 
Don’t always agree with Deano but I do on this one. It’s far too early to draw conclusions and more importantly, I see a massive improvement in our playing staff from last season, the buying looks good to me and the selling for that matter.
As for buying players with premier experience, who and where are they? I remember all too well how MONs pursuit of experienced pros partly led to his and our demise. The problem is you end up with those past their best in terms of performance and ambition unless you’re going to lay out multi millions for younger potential.
We have a plan on buying and playing but it’s not going to be easy because we’re playing catch up and the season is a marathon, not even the next three games will reveal where we’ll be at the time of the final three. I don’t think there will be a eureka moment when every cog suddenly fits into place but rather a building of a team, brick by brick, game by game, even mistake by mistake!
It’s great to have the discussion though and that’s why we spend time on this excellent site!
 
Finding the balance between being seen as overly negative (doom monger) or positive (happy clapper) is especially hard when expressing words in writing. To me, those phrases are a little disingenuous and an easy way to criticize other opinions rather than reasoned arguments.
My train of thought in assessing where we are at the minute, is that I still think it is too early to panic, and that, given time we will come good. When I say “come good” I’m alluding to my thought (hope?) that we will avoid a relegation scrap.
I totally understand the folks who are saying we are undermanned up front. But on the other hand some may say that we have sufficient depth when considering that we have three centre forwards for one position. It’s the fact that Dean Smith has put his faith in three players who are all unproven at this level that creates the worry. But how much would a “proven” premier league forward have cost us? And would he have wanted to join a newly promoted team?
I think the summer recruitment was done with four thoughts in mind. 1. Keep the core of the promotion squad together. 2. Buy young players who can develop. 3. Get the spine of the team sorted. 4. Have two players for each (specific) position.
I think the only failure in all of that was not getting another wide player. That may have come down to lack of available options or the thought that Kodja/Elmo can provide the cover.
I don’t put any stock in the Mings/ElGhazi incident, other than a lack of experience on both their parts. That type of thing happens all the time on the training ground (I’ve seen it happen and been part of things like that as a coach and player) but experienced players know that you cannot do it in front of 40,000 fans and a watching TV audience. Mings was over the top and ElGhazi over-reacted. Handbags.
Things definitely are “not right” in terms of results, but I still enjoy watching this Villa team more than I probably have since the days of BFR in the early 90’s.
 
Virgil Van Dijk made a mistake last week. Does that mean he can't be described as solid any more?

I think we're basing our judgement of the defence on how they look as a partnership (trio including Heaton) and I think in the main they've looked solid.

They will make mistakes. They are inexperienced at this level and probably it will take time to realise they can't get away with things in this division they could before, but overall they look solid to me.

I've already explained to you what my issue is when you keep saying 'things aren't right'. You may not mean it, and above you deny it but that very phrase to me suggests something deep. It's almost like you're trying to get a bite.

If you said, we need to stop the individual errors and get in the gym and work on our fitness then I may well agree with you.

When you just keep saying "things aren't right', I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about as I feel the club as a whole is as right as it has been in decades.

Nobody likes to lose football games. And McGinn, Mings, Smith everyone else is right to be upset and looking for answers... that's normal. Not sure there's much else to be looked into in detail.

We'll be fine. Keep playing the way we are, the results will improve. No doubt. We've not played many teams in and around us yet, and law of averages suggests we can't keep falling foul of the refs.

The biggest plus point in all of this for me is we're 3rd from bottom yet the confidence amongst the players still seems high. I just wish the fans could be as strong.
 
The facts of the matter are it's an unforgiving league.

Had it not been for poor officials we'd be 8th now not 18th. Whether you believe in using officials as excuses or not that's a fact. If we were sitting in 8th there's no way you are constantly saying 'things aren't right'.

Also I made the point yesterday, had we just turned up at the emirates, rolled over and lost 3-0 nobody would have batted an eyelid. It would have been expected and we'd just move on. We kind of made a rod for our own backs, by taking the lead twice and then people decide to get upset. Personally I'd rather go and give it a bloody good go and prove we can play against the best but just fall short rather than just roll up and get turned over, but it's made the reaction by some fans worse. Bizzare.

Finally.... at least we're not Wolves. :grinning:
 
Mostly agree but I don't think the VAR/refereeing decisions can be understated. They materially cost us against Palace and the chance of an equaliser at Arsenal. Genuine, match/result-changing errors.

The West Ham guy getting a soft yellow didn't alter the game in any shape or form as far as I am concerned.

But your broad point about the lack of experience is the key here, and the lack of striking options is indeed bewildering, considering the amount of money spent and the players we did sign.

We could really do with 7 points minimum from the next three games, but it won't be easy, no games are at this level.

I do think Dean Smith needs to reassess our formation - Wesley is far too isolated during games and Jack and SJM need to be in advanced areas at all times - Arsenal, for example, couldn't live with us for long periods when Jack was bursting forward and McGinn was much higher up the pitch.

There has to be room in the side for Nakamba AND Luiz imho, probably at the expense of El Ghazi (although he and Trezeguet look pretty interchangeable).

So something along the lines of:
Heaton
Guilbert/Engels/Mings/Targett
Luiz/Nakamba
McGinn/Grealish/Trezeguet
Wesley would be my preferred XI.

The West Ham guy getting a soft yellow didn't alter the game in any shape or form as far as I am concerned.

100% agree with this. I chatted with a mate the other day who is a Leicester fan (a proper one) and his first words to me (while laughing) were “you guys are getting f****ed.” It was actually him who pointed out to me that the Arsenal free-kick should have been disallowed together with the penalty non-call.
The introduction of VAR has done absolutely nothing to improve officiating and if anything, has highlighted the bias and sheer incompetence of premier league officials. The chief of officiating is an “old boy” and the VAR monitors are mates of the on-field referee. I read an article the other day that quoted a senior official from Europe as saying that the English interpretation and implementation of VAR is seriously flawed and not what it was intended for.
 
I've already explained to you what my issue is when you keep saying 'things aren't right'. You may not mean it, and above you deny it but that very phrase to me suggests something deep. It's almost like you're trying to get a bite.

If you said, we need to stop the individual errors and get in the gym and work on our fitness then I may well agree with you.

When you just keep saying "things aren't right', I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about as I feel the club as a whole is as right as it has been in decades.

So you jumped to a wild conclusion instead. What I've said a few times anyway, is 'we aren't set up right' and yes, also, 'things aren't right'.

Dean Smith wouldn't disagree, surely? 4 points in 18 = close but no cigar. We need the cigar and the next three games could be huge for us.

:Fingers:

Is it any worse than after a few games a few of you have judged Wesley to be dog shit for instance? And if he is dog shit, wasn't it a huge gamble not having back up?

I don't think we are a million miles away opinion wise, we rarely are, but you did shock me last night in your reaction. I'm relaxed, if we go down but go down fighting, I'll not shed a tear. If we finish 17th, same as you, I'll see that as fine.

But I will continue to express my opinions in my way without fear of rebuke.

:p:p:p
 
Also I made the point yesterday, had we just turned up at the emirates, rolled over and lost 3-0 nobody would have batted an eyelid. It would have been expected and we'd just move on. We kind of made a rod for our own backs, by taking the lead twice and then people decide to get upset. Personally I'd rather go and give it a bloody good go and prove we can play against the best but just fall short rather than just roll up and get turned over, but it's made the reaction by some fans worse. Bizarre.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. :clap::clap:
 
My train of thought in assessing where we are at the minute, is that I still think it is too early to panic,

Agree totally. But when, in the match threads, anyone has said anything even half negative, or commented on a bad part of the game, they have been shout down as doommongers and / or told they are panicking.

Most are doing no such thing in my humble.

I am finding this season fascinating, but I need to see more to have full confidence. That's my prerogative (obviously). I'm tired of doing the ever optimistic stuff only to let AVFC kick me in the doo dahs.
 
It's almost like you're trying to get a bite.

Because that is my style?

Could it not just be that I'm expressing a different opinion? I go, I watch, I form my opinion. That's my opinion, Mings and McGinn have expressed similar and questioned their mentality and fitness. If they were all back slapping and delighted, that would be the time to panic, not if I post I don't think things are right.
 
Could it not just be that I'm expressing a different opinion? I go, I watch, I form my opinion. .

Which is fine. And if you're opinion is that we lack fitness and need to cut out mistakes, or even we should change formation then thats fine.

The wording of your opinion though... maybe it's just me? If it is I hold my hands up, but I can't really help how I read things, When someone keeps on saying things aren't right it seems a dramatic way of putting things.

i don;t usually bite and I love healthy debate, I just misunderstood your meaning for a while given the way you articulated it. Now you've explained what you mean, fine no problem.
 
Dean Smith wouldn't disagree, surely? 4 points in 18 = close but no cigar. We need the cigar and the next three games could be huge for us.

:Fingers:

Is it any worse than after a few games a few of you have judged Wesley to be dog shit for instance? And if he is dog shit, wasn't it a huge gamble not having back up?
A good friend of mine is Cuban. I’ll get working on that Cigar.
:smoke::smoke:
Wesley needs time and patience. Something we Villa fans aren’t very good at. He is the new Savo. He came to us as a big-money new signing at a similar age and he-who-walks-on-water constantly had to remind us that it was going to take time. He was never given that patience by most fans, although some came around after the worldy in the league cup final.
 
But when, in the match threads, anyone has said anything even half negative, or commented on a bad part of the game, they have been shout down as doommongers and / or told they are panicking.
.

I don't think this is true either. it's just a forum with lots of differing opinions. If someone disagrees with another persons opinion they can say so and give a counter argument... doesn't mean they are being shouted down.
 
I don't think this is true either. it's just a forum with lots of differing opinions. If someone disagrees with another persons opinion they can say so and give a counter argument... doesn't mean they are being shouted down.
I do think that there are a few in these forums that resort to name-calling (happy clapper, doom monger etc). That’s not an exchange of opinion really, just more of a “I don’t agree with you therefore I shall label you.”