The Premier League 2023-24 Thread | Page 85 | Vital Football

The Premier League 2023-24 Thread

ZedRed said:
Southgate would rather pick Henderson than give any of those players a chance.

Pathetic.
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Surely it doesn't matter, given that all international competition is decided by a conspiracy of FIFA, UEFA and referees, depending on which players they like.
 
I think some of the criticism of Southgate's past record is harsh and wide of the mark.

We got to a final for the first time in a couple of generations. Anyone can lose a final. Was the Argentina team that won the world cup notably better than France? Not convinced.

For the first time in my lifetime, we have beaten decent sides in an actual tournament.

But the reality is, we haven't been the best sides. We weren't the best side in 2018, we certainly weren't last year.

I think where criticism is more valid is on the consequences of his longevity- which he see in a reliance on an old guard of players, some of whom are not there on merit for their clubs- the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips.

Fans, especially between tournaments, want to see their club's players getting a chance at international level and many feel that Southgate has developed personal loyalties to players that is blocking that.

Which leads to the question; are Maguire or Henderson helping or hindering England? The obsession with Jordan Henderson inevitably is stopping someone else coming in to fill that place. Same with Maguire- his presence, against club form, is stopping the likes of Guehi or Branthwaite getting time for England potentially.

I think most managers, after a long time, are susceptible to personal loyalties that dampen the ruthlessness that is needed
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I think some of the criticism of Southgate's past record is harsh and wide of the mark.

We got to a final for the first time in a couple of generations. Anyone can lose a final. Was the Argentina team that won the world cup notably better than France? Not convinced.

For the first time in my lifetime, we have beaten decent sides in an actual tournament.

But the reality is, we haven't been the best sides. We weren't the best side in 2018, we certainly weren't last year.

I think where criticism is more valid is on the consequences of his longevity- which he see in a reliance on an old guard of players, some of whom are not there on merit for their clubs- the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips.

Fans, especially between tournaments, want to see their club's players getting a chance at international level and many feel that Southgate has developed personal loyalties to players that is blocking that.

Which leads to the question; are Maguire or Henderson helping or hindering England? The obsession with Jordan Henderson inevitably is stopping someone else coming in to fill that place. Same with Maguire- his presence, against club form, is stopping the likes of Guehi or Branthwaite getting time for England potentially.

I think most managers, after a long time, are susceptible to personal loyalties that dampen the ruthlessness that is needed
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He's finally dropped Philips from the squad, and Maguire's form has actually been pretty good recently.
I get it with Henderson though. Its a bit ridiculous having him in the squad unless he's there mainly for dressing room/non playing reasons.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I think some of the criticism of Southgate's past record is harsh and wide of the mark.

We got to a final for the first time in a couple of generations. Anyone can lose a final. Was the Argentina team that won the world cup notably better than France? Not convinced.

For the first time in my lifetime, we have beaten decent sides in an actual tournament.

But the reality is, we haven't been the best sides. We weren't the best side in 2018, we certainly weren't last year.

I think where criticism is more valid is on the consequences of his longevity- which he see in a reliance on an old guard of players, some of whom are not there on merit for their clubs- the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips.

Fans, especially between tournaments, want to see their club's players getting a chance at international level and many feel that Southgate has developed personal loyalties to players that is blocking that.

Which leads to the question; are Maguire or Henderson helping or hindering England? The obsession with Jordan Henderson inevitably is stopping someone else coming in to fill that place. Same with Maguire- his presence, against club form, is stopping the likes of Guehi or Branthwaite getting time for England potentially.

I think most managers, after a long time, are susceptible to personal loyalties that dampen the ruthlessness that is needed
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McGuire, Henderson and Philips were debatably the best we had in those positions. The likes of Branthwaite and Guehi were not coming through. Now is the time to play them.

Rice and Bellingham are too good to be holding midfielders. They are so dangerous attacking the ball.

Fullbacks are the weak link and replacement for Harry.
 
Polly 433 said:
McGuire, Henderson and Philips were debatably the best we had in those positions. The likes of Branthwaite and Guehi were not coming through. Now is the time to play them.

Rice and Bellingham are too good to be holding midfielders. They are so dangerous attacking the ball.

Fullbacks are the weak link and replacement for Harry.
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Bellingham isn't a holding midfielder, though, he plays attacking mid.

When southgate was doing a Cooper and playing 3 CBs, then 3 in midfield, England's creative outlet was diminshed somewhat.

Ever since the big Semi against France, he has seemingly opted for a Nuno-esque 4231.
Within that formation, Bellingham (not that he isn't good enough to do the job of a DM) plays as an AM/No.10.
2 wideboys in any two of: Saka, Rashford, Grealish, Foden, Palmer, Gordon, Bowen etc. And Kane up top.

Whilst Rice may have some ability going forward, its not on a par with Bellingham plus, he's England's best No.6.
Pivot him with a box-to-box runner - Gallagher given the midfield call-ups Southgate has opted for, i'd have given Mainoo a chance - and there is a very nice balance there.
 
to be honest i have far less interest in england than when i did years ago. it felt like it meant a whole pile more. its been constant disappointment.

same with the FA cup. the whole country used to come to a standstill.
 
BlackGold said:
Bellingham isn't a holding midfielder, though, he plays attacking mid.

When southgate was doing a Cooper and playing 3 CBs, then 3 in midfield, England's creative outlet was diminshed somewhat.

Ever since the big Semi against France, he has seemingly opted for a Nuno-esque 4231.
Within that formation, Bellingham (not that he isn't good enough to do the job of a DM) plays as an AM/No.10.
2 wideboys in any two of: Saka, Rashford, Grealish, Foden, Palmer, Gordon, Bowen etc. And Kane up top.

Whilst Rice may have some ability going forward, its not on a par with Bellingham plus, he's England's best No.6.
Pivot him with a box-to-box runner - Gallagher given the midfield call-ups Southgate has opted for, i'd have given Mainoo a chance - and there is a very nice balance there.
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I know you've probably got big semis on your mind, but it was actually a quarter.
 
Southgate has underachieved with the squad available to select, and the opponents (other than France) which we have been paired against in the last 3 tournaments.

Croatia I can give him a pass on, considering we were just after the Allardyce debacle and the previous Euro's. Yes they were there for the taking, but that Croatia team were a bloody good team 6 years ago.

Against Italy that was abject failure, against a bang average team at home, and 1-0 up.

His continuing selection of Phillips was/is mind boggling. I dont subscribe to the Maguire and Henderson bashing, as both have a role to play and generally haven't let England down. Hendersons role will be off the bench to see games out and make the other 10 play better. He should not start a game, but if Rice went down then he is the organiser.
 
After these Euro's, that Jarell Quansah looks like some player in the making. Hoping if he's still in and around the Liverpool first team next season that the New England manager picks him. Surely this is Southgates last dance
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I think some of the criticism of Southgate's past record is harsh and wide of the mark.

We got to a final for the first time in a couple of generations. Anyone can lose a final. Was the Argentina team that won the world cup notably better than France? Not convinced.

For the first time in my lifetime, we have beaten decent sides in an actual tournament.

But the reality is, we haven't been the best sides. We weren't the best side in 2018, we certainly weren't last year.

I think where criticism is more valid is on the consequences of his longevity- which he see in a reliance on an old guard of players, some of whom are not there on merit for their clubs- the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips.

Fans, especially between tournaments, want to see their club's players getting a chance at international level and many feel that Southgate has developed personal loyalties to players that is blocking that.

Which leads to the question; are Maguire or Henderson helping or hindering England? The obsession with Jordan Henderson inevitably is stopping someone else coming in to fill that place. Same with Maguire- his presence, against club form, is stopping the likes of Guehi or Branthwaite getting time for England potentially.

I think most managers, after a long time, are susceptible to personal loyalties that dampen the ruthlessness that is needed
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Argentina were much stronger, at least in the final. France didn't have a shot on goal for most of the game.

On Southgate, I'm with Zed. How can you bring two kids into the final game 1-2 minutes before penalties and burden them with such responsibility!? I also agree about Keene. Wasn't there anyone to take the second penalty...
 
Jordan_Bulgaria said:
Argentina were much stronger, at least in the final. France didn't have a shot on goal for most of the game.

On Southgate, I'm with Zed. How can you bring two kids into the final game 1-2 minutes before penalties and burden them with such responsibility!? I also agree about Keene. Wasn't there anyone to take the second penalty...
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The penalties maybe, as they were young.

But I always think that when you do one of those shite stop start penalties, it's on you when it inevitably goes to shit.

For Kane... Plenty of players have taken two penalties in a game. I don't think it's a big deal. He is a really reliable penalty taker. Had someone else missed, the conversation would all be about why he didn't let the guy who had already scored one take it?
 
I'm struggling to see what people actually want in a manager.
We've made absolutely huge improvements, although these are decreasing over time, so I can see the point that Southgate's time might be running out.
People apparently think he's an absolutely shit useless loser because they can point to one or two mistakes he has made.

So what we're after is a manager who has never made any mistakes.

I'll be waiting for someone to name one.

FFS it took Pep years of failing in the Champions League before he finally won one for City. If it were down to the people on here he would have been fired after 3 years, and City would be much, much worse off for it.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
The penalties maybe, as they were young.

But I always think that when you do one of those shite stop start penalties, it's on you when it inevitably goes to shit.

For Kane... Plenty of players have taken two penalties in a game. I don't think it's a big deal. He is a really reliable penalty taker. Had someone else missed, the conversation would all be about why he didn't let the guy who had already scored one take it?
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Michael Owen scored a penalty against Argentina in the shootout at age 18; David Batty missed his despite being experienced. I would expect Saka and Rashford to score their penalties, which are as much a test of technique as they are of nerve, plus also, by their not having been on the pitch for most of the game, the goalkeeper would not be thinking of how to deal with them.
 
chandos9 said:
Michael Owen scored a penalty against Argentina in the shootout at age 18; David Batty missed his despite being experienced. I would expect Saka and Rashford to score their penalties, which are as much a test of technique as they are of nerve, plus also, by their not having been on the pitch for most of the game, the goalkeeper would not be thinking of how to deal with them.
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You need to be warm in terms of striking the ball.
 
chandos9 said:
Michael Owen scored a penalty against Argentina in the shootout at age 18; David Batty missed his despite being experienced. I would expect Saka and Rashford to score their penalties, which are as much a test of technique as they are of nerve, plus also, by their not having been on the pitch for most of the game, the goalkeeper would not be thinking of how to deal with them.
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Chandos, I thought you were in my clique but you're siding with your biggest wit rival
:rofl:
 
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