The High Press - What Should We Be Doing? | Page 4 | Vital Football

The High Press - What Should We Be Doing?

Chimpimp said:
We "struggled" to top of the league until Feb.

Got injuries to Hopper, Walsh, Grant and Bridcutt and actually did struggle.

Then we got some of those players back and "struggled" to qualify for the play offs with two games to spare.

That's my recollection of last season anyway.
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But we struggled only at home - because visiting teams worked out how to play us by using a high press.

Our home record from January through to the season end was W 3, D5, L5 - which cost us an automatic.

Our league home record this season so far is W 2 D 3 L 4, just as bad.

Just as I said when I started this thread, our inability to combat a high press at home has been there now for 11 months - so it really is not totally injury related. More an inability to come up with an effective way to play against a team that does not allow us to pass it out from the back.
 
Chimpimp said:
We "struggled" to top of the league until Feb.

Got injuries to Hopper, Walsh, Grant and Bridcutt and actually did struggle.

Then we got some of those players back and "struggled" to qualify for the play offs with two games to spare.

That's my recollection of last season anyway.
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It was mainly the 13 away wins that keep us near the top from memory.
We've only had 5 home wins this calendar year .
Northampton, Crewe, MK Dons, Fleetwood and Charlton.
Our style seemed to be suited more to away games.

My apologies I missed the home bit out of my previous post, I've amended it now :ooops::sorry:
 
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mikeosullivan said:
But we struggled only at home - because visiting teams worked out how to play us by using a high press.

Our home record from January through to the season end was W 3, D5, L5 - which cost us an automatic.

Our league home record this season so far is W 2 D 3 L 4, just as bad.

Just as I said when I started this thread, our inability to combat a high press at home has been there now for 11 months - so it really is not totally injury related. More an inability to come up with an effective way to play against a team that does not allow us to pass it out from the back.
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Spot on we had Johnson and co last season and we had problems then at home.
Weird it seems to work better away than at home, maybe when we're away teams the home team are less likely to press dunno?
 
Davidimp said:
Spot on we had Johnson and co last season and we had problems then at home.
Weird it seems to work better away than at home, maybe when we're away teams the home team are less likely to press dunno?
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I think I saw someone else mention it elsewhere but initially the problem didn't seem to be a high press so much to me - more teams entirely sitting in with back threes/back fours that don't go anywhere! I'm thinking back to games like Shrewsbury at home, where we had about three quarters of the ball. Clearly they can't have been disrupting us and winning the ball back high up the pitch if we're completing 600 passes and Montsma is completing towards 100.

In some ways, signing a bunch of creative midfielders and players like Fiorini, make a lot of sense against that. More guile to break down a team sitting in, more ability to play through a press and also in Fiorini's case, the long range shot if they're camped in their own box! I guess that would be the theory at least.

Perhaps in the 3 at the back, teams can combine having two attackers pressing to disrupt our progression of the ball from the back but also are fundamentally 'defensive' with 3 CBs and 2 DMs so don't leave us space on the counter attack? I can't imagine teams sit in more at home and press more away against us...
 
Rasenimp said:
I think I saw someone else mention it elsewhere but initially the problem didn't seem to be a high press so much to me - more teams entirely sitting in with back threes/back fours that don't go anywhere! I'm thinking back to games like Shrewsbury at home, where we had about three quarters of the ball. Clearly they can't have been disrupting us and winning the ball back high up the pitch if we're completing 600 passes and Montsma is completing towards 100.

In some ways, signing a bunch of creative midfielders and players like Fiorini, make a lot of sense against that. More guile to break down a team sitting in, more ability to play through a press and also in Fiorini's case, the long range shot if they're camped in their own box! I guess that would be the theory at least.

Perhaps in the 3 at the back, teams can combine having two attackers pressing to disrupt our progression of the ball from the back but also are fundamentally 'defensive' with 3 CBs and 2 DMs so don't leave us space on the counter attack? I can't imagine teams sit in more at home and press more away against us...
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It's a right head scratcher for sure we just seem to really struggle to break teams down especially at home.
 
Davidimp said:
It was mainly the 13 away wins that keep us near the top from memory.
We've only had 5 home wins this calendar year .
Northampton, Crewe, MK Dons, Fleetwood and Charlton.
Our style seemed to be suited more to away games.

My apologies I missed the home bit out of my previous post, I've amended it now :ooops::sorry:
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However, tell me how many away games we won between Wigan Mid Feb and Bristol Rovers mid April.

From looking at the figures it's nil.

Coinciding with the bulk of our injuries.

Players win matches.
Usually your best players.
 
Chimpimp said:
However, tell me how many away games we won between Wigan Mid Feb and Bristol Rovers mid April.

From looking at the figures it's nil.

Coinciding with the bulk of our injuries.

Players win matches.
Usually your best players.
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So you really dont think our home form isnt poor?
I'm not only one who thinks we have a problem at home.
 
Something else to throw into the mix... last season we actually scored more goals at home than away (35 v 34) but conceded 30 (vs 20 away).

58% of our points came away (13 wins, 6 draws, 4 losses) compared to 9 wins, 5 draws, 9 losses at home.

This season we have conceded 1.33 per match (small sample size though) at home, 1.22 away.

The fact that we scored comparably at home seems interesting if the issue is our ability to progress the ball against a high press, no? Maybe Appleton is right that we just haven't defended properly at home!
 
Maybe Appleton is right about something?Well that's a start Mike. I guess he is going over this thread today to gain a valuable insight into how to coach and set up a professional football team.I think if he follows all the wise advise given on this incredible thread he is likely to go for the Christmas tree set up with Benson and Hedges on the Bench.
 
Rasenimp said:
I think I saw someone else mention it elsewhere but initially the problem didn't seem to be a high press so much to me - more teams entirely sitting in with back threes/back fours that don't go anywhere! I'm thinking back to games like Shrewsbury at home, where we had about three quarters of the ball. Clearly they can't have been disrupting us and winning the ball back high up the pitch if we're completing 600 passes and Montsma is completing towards 100.

In some ways, signing a bunch of creative midfielders and players like Fiorini, make a lot of sense against that. More guile to break down a team sitting in, more ability to play through a press and also in Fiorini's case, the long range shot if they're camped in their own box! I guess that would be the theory at least.

Perhaps in the 3 at the back, teams can combine having two attackers pressing to disrupt our progression of the ball from the back but also are fundamentally 'defensive' with 3 CBs and 2 DMs so don't leave us space on the counter attack? I can't imagine teams sit in more at home and press more away against us...
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We struggle against 3 at the back because the wingbacks push up and flood the midfield with 5 and one of the 2 up front drops back to make a 6. at that point there is no space and no time to play "through the thirds". It's not that the press is very high just that the midfield is packed across it's entire width and depth. This is often when Lewis' big raking diagonal comes into play to better or worse effect.
 
oldgaurd said:
Maybe Appleton is right about something?Well that's a start Mike. I guess he is going over this thread today to gain a valuable insight into how to coach and set up a professional football team.I think if he follows all the wise advise given on this incredible thread he is likely to go for the Christmas tree set up with Benson and Hedges on the Bench.
Click to expand...

Should light things up!
 
Rasenimp said:
Something else to throw into the mix... last season we actually scored more goals at home than away (35 v 34) but conceded 30 (vs 20 away).

58% of our points came away (13 wins, 6 draws, 4 losses) compared to 9 wins, 5 draws, 9 losses at home.

This season we have conceded 1.33 per match (small sample size though) at home, 1.22 away.

The fact that we scored comparably at home seems interesting if the issue is our ability to progress the ball against a high press, no? Maybe Appleton is right that we just haven't defended properly at home!
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Defending is only part of the problem. On paper we have got great defenders but if you look closer then problems appear. Only two of them are really good in the air and able to put a grip on winning first balls. Jackson and Walsh obviously. Both are injury prone though and that is very polite way to say it. That leaves us many times just with TJ and Monstma who are talented footballers but relatively easy to be bullied in the air. On top of that TJ is also a cover for RB and if Poole will get injured then we're in trouble. (I know we have Roughan but he is not experienced enough to play CB yet I think).
I still think that defence isn't our main problem though. Lack of pace good offensive players is lot bigger.
We are not creating and not scoring enough.
We were struggling with that even against Bower&Pitsea. We struggle everywhere really at the moment. I think big part of the issue was very poor summer transfer window .
 
veritas said:
Defending is only part of the problem. On paper we have got great defenders but if you look closer then problems appear. Only two of them are really good in the air and able to put a grip on winning first balls. Jackson and Walsh obviously. Both are injury prone though and that is very polite way to say it. That leaves us many times just with TJ and Monstma who are talented footballers but relatively easy to be bullied in the air. On top of that TJ is also a cover for RB and if Poole will get injured then we're in trouble. (I know we have Roughan but he is not experienced enough to play CB yet I think).
I still think that defence isn't our main problem though. Lack of pace good offensive players is lot bigger.
We are not creating and not scoring enough.
We were struggling with that even against Bower&Pitsea. We struggle everywhere really at the moment. I think big part of the issue was very poor summer transfer window .
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Spot on
Maguire has been excellent and when Bishop plays through the middle he's decent too.
 
I wonder how much we are missing Hopper as a target man. I recall last season that he would often take the ball at the half way line with his back to goal (often from a centre back) before "drawing" a foul from his marker. This allowed Lincoln to restart play with possession halfway up the pitch. Perhaps an example of how the team are missing the older more experienced league 1 players.
 
Rasenimp said:
I think I saw someone else mention it elsewhere but initially the problem didn't seem to be a high press so much to me - more teams entirely sitting in with back threes/back fours that don't go anywhere!
Click to expand...

Actually it was, and still is, both.

That's why scoring first is most important - it is in general but it goes double for our team

If we score first the game becomes more open and that plays to our strengths, and it explains why we've generally been better away from home for a year and a half - which I imagine most fans don't actually see because they don't attend away games or have the benefit of ifollow.

We've defended in depth quite successfully, even this season, at Burton and Wigan for example, because we had the scoreboard in our favour.

I am getting frustrated, though, by the inability to find another way of trying to play past a high press other than that escape head-high ball to the full back on the halfway line.

For a first class coach like Appleton - which he is, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm surprised there hasn't been an innovation.
 
Davidimp said:
Spot on
Maguire has been excellent and when Bishop plays through the middle he's decent too.
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Maguire has been half decent, not excellent surely. Looks stylish but has to score and create to prove his worth. No goals and no assists from open play would suggest excellent is way, way over the top.
 
johnolbe said:
Maguire has been half decent, not excellent surely. Looks stylish but has to score and create to prove his worth. No goals and no assists from open play would suggest excellent is way, way over the top.
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Excellent can also used as a comment of approval
 
As I have suggested before, I believe our problems lie in midfield rather than defence.

Think of the Portsmouth game alone - how many times did we see a defender caught in possession around his own penalty area? The defender had no out ball because there was no movement from the midfielders to assist.

In the same vein, the supply line to the strikers is poor - how many chances per game are created by a pass from a midfielder?

Why is that? Individually, they are inexperienced - prior to this season, appearances in English league football numbered:
Bridcutt 306
Bishop 123
McGrandles 115
Sorensen 32
Sanders 25
Fiorini 0

Even when they are all fit, it is still an inexperienced midfield with no depth. With Bridcutt and Bishop frequently unavailable, very little remains.

MA may be looking at 2-3 strikers in January, but the midfield cannot be ignored.
 
Scotimp said:
As I have suggested before, I believe our problems lie in midfield rather than defence.

Think of the Portsmouth game alone - how many times did we see a defender caught in possession around his own penalty area? The defender had no out ball because there was no movement from the midfielders to assist.

In the same vein, the supply line to the strikers is poor - how many chances per game are created by a pass from a midfielder?

Why is that? Individually, they are inexperienced - prior to this season, appearances in English league football numbered:
Bridcutt 306
Bishop 123
McGrandles 115
Sorensen 32
Sanders 25
Fiorini 0

Even when they are all fit, it is still an inexperienced midfield with no depth. With Bridcutt and Bishop frequently unavailable, very little remains.

MA may be looking at 2-3 strikers in January, but the midfield cannot be ignored.
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I keep reading about Bishop being unavailable but afaik he's our 3rd highest appearance maker this season
 
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