The 'From the River to the Sea' chant (n/g) | Page 4 | Vital Football

The 'From the River to the Sea' chant (n/g)

Buddha. Genuine question.
What good do you think marching up and down the UK will do? If you were marching up and down in Jerusalem then fair enough. At least the Israeli government would take notice, and see your displeasure. I mean, the UK government can't say, ok, we'll stop bombing then. Can they?
 
Oh heck, it's this or marking so I'll do this. Odd isn't it, how arguments and claims around "people are dying right now" devolve into discussions about having a pint, watching the football, has-been Labour dogmatists and populists, slogans and, in my case, putting off getting to work.

I have no doubt that most of the marchers and many more people think in terms of people are dying right now and that the first priority is to just stop it. It's a good sentiment and it is often the right one. With the benefit (if such it is) of history and distance, for example, we find it easier and easier to ask what on earth were people fighting about and how could they imagine that it was worth the cost.

But obviously, not always. To take a tired trope, Chamberlain's Munich Agreement. He wasn't a fool. He knew there was a possibility that Hitler would break his word. He knew there was a possibility that events would knock the deal sideways. But he also knew two certainties: he knew from direct experience what war was like; and he knew that thanks to the deal, thousands of people would stay alive over the next few months who would otherwise be dead.

Most people think he got it wrong and made things worse. Most people, in this case, can see the limits to a policy based purely on "just stop the killing" or making sure it doesn't get started. After all, if the priority is just stop the killing, this is a message that can go out to all parties. In the current case, if Hamas hoisted white flags and marched out to surrender, then the killing would stop. But nobody expects that. Nobody marches for "Hamas, turn yourself in now," and many people think it would not be right.

They think this because, no matter what people say, there is always a political context to the kind of killing we are talking about, and thus there are always judgements about where the balance of justice and wickedness lie in the case under consideration. This being so, the call to "just stop the killing" always has a political dimension as well as a humanitarian one and, indeed, it is often used as a political weapon-particularly by a party which is beginning to lose, but which to that point had no objection to killing and, indeed, relished, celebrated and publicized its efforts in that regard. Had Hamas's strategy of drawing in its Iranian and Arab allies to the conflict worked, for example, I don't think they would be asking for a ceasefire, and, insofar as they think their strategy might yet work, I don't think they're sure they want a ceasefire at this point.

Back to the demonstrations then. The fuel for most marching is "just stop the killing." But the form of the protests (they are clearly against one of the parties to the killing and not the other), the objectives of the organizers (putting pressure on their governments and gaining support for their own organizations and ways of seeing things) and, should they be successful (which I doubt), the outcome of the marches is highly political. We can argue about those outcomes -but to slide back and forth between the "simple" humanitarian claim "just stop the killing" and the various demands embodied in the slogans the marchers are chanting is, itself, a very political move and should be recognized as such.

Which is to say, that were many of the marchers better informed about the history of this whole sorry business, they'd stop home and watch the football.

Back to marking.

Lots in there, jokerman. I'll have to get back to you later.

I'll just quickly say now though that at many protests about various things in the past I'd have a drink whilst marching. That hasn't seemed appropriate at all on these marches and so I have refrained. But afterwards, yes, straight to the pub. I don't think there is anything wrong in that even though I am acutely aware of the privileged position I am in to be able to do this. Although I turned my attention to the Gills yesterday afternoon once I'd finished marching, that doesn't mean I suddenly forgot about the plight of the Palestinian people. They were and are still in my thoughts and prayers.
 
Buddha. Genuine question.
What good do you think marching up and down the UK will do? If you were marching up and down in Jerusalem then fair enough. At least the Israeli government would take notice, and see your displeasure. I mean, the UK government can't say, ok, we'll stop bombing then. Can they?

Good question. I suppose the idea is to put pressure on the government(s) to do something.

But I also think it's got something to do with feeling so powerless. Very similar to those who protest with XR and/or Just Stop Oil. There's an understanding that the protesting isn't achieving what the protesters want it to achieve but at the same time there is a feeling that at least one is trying to do something. And trying to do something is better than doing nothing.

I do totally get your question though. I wad on the biggest demo this country has ever seen when there were more than a million people on the streets. It didn't achieve anything though, Blair's government went ahead bombed the fuck out of Iraq and killed many, many innocent people despite the very obvious huge opposition to this. Of course, most if those who didn't support the anti -war message back then we're those who believed the lie that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that he could unleash within 45 minutes.
 
Lots in there, jokerman. I'll have to get back to you later.

I'll just quickly say now though that at many protests about various things in the past I'd have a drink whilst marching. That hasn't seemed appropriate at all on these marches and so I have refrained. But afterwards, yes, straight to the pub. I don't think there is anything wrong in that even though I am acutely aware of the privileged position I am in to be able to do this. Although I turned my attention to the Gills yesterday afternoon once I'd finished marching, that doesn't mean I suddenly forgot about the plight of the Palestinian people. They were and are still in my thoughts and prayers.

I apologize Buddha. Nothing in my post was directed at you personally, although I can see how it could be seen as such. As I say, I’m supposed to be marking -60 essays on the political, cataclysmic and eschatological views of war applied to Ukraine or Gaza -but this is more attractive than doing that.
 
Oh heck, it's this or marking so I'll do this. Odd isn't it, how arguments and claims around "people are dying right now" devolve into discussions about having a pint, watching the football, has-been Labour dogmatists and populists, slogans and, in my case, putting off getting to work.

I have no doubt that most of the marchers and many more people think in terms of people are dying right now and that the first priority is to just stop it. It's a good sentiment and it is often the right one. With the benefit (if such it is) of history and distance, for example, we find it easier and easier to ask what on earth were people fighting about and how could they imagine that it was worth the cost.

But obviously, not always. To take a tired trope, Chamberlain's Munich Agreement. He wasn't a fool. He knew there was a possibility that Hitler would break his word. He knew there was a possibility that events would knock the deal sideways. But he also knew two certainties: he knew from direct experience what war was like; and he knew that thanks to the deal, thousands of people would stay alive over the next few months who would otherwise be dead.

Most people think he got it wrong and made things worse. Most people, in this case, can see the limits to a policy based purely on "just stop the killing" or making sure it doesn't get started. After all, if the priority is just stop the killing, this is a message that can go out to all parties. In the current case, if Hamas hoisted white flags and marched out to surrender, then the killing would stop. But nobody expects that. Nobody marches for "Hamas, turn yourself in now," and many people think it would not be right.

They think this because, no matter what people say, there is always a political context to the kind of killing we are talking about, and thus there are always judgements about where the balance of justice and wickedness lie in the case under consideration. This being so, the call to "just stop the killing" always has a political dimension as well as a humanitarian one and, indeed, it is often used as a political weapon-particularly by a party which is beginning to lose, but which to that point had no objection to killing and, indeed, relished, celebrated and publicized its efforts in that regard. Had Hamas's strategy of drawing in its Iranian and Arab allies to the conflict worked, for example, I don't think they would be asking for a ceasefire, and, insofar as they think their strategy might yet work, I don't think they're sure they want a ceasefire at this point.

Back to the demonstrations then. The fuel for most marching is "just stop the killing." But the form of the protests (they are clearly against one of the parties to the killing and not the other), the objectives of the organizers (putting pressure on their governments and gaining support for their own organizations and ways of seeing things) and, should they be successful (which I doubt), the outcome of the marches is highly political. We can argue about those outcomes -but to slide back and forth between the "simple" humanitarian claim "just stop the killing" and the various demands embodied in the slogans the marchers are chanting is, itself, a very political move and should be recognized as such.

Which is to say, that were many of the marchers better informed about the history of this whole sorry business, they'd stop home and watch the football.

Back to marking.
Interesting how the opinions on Chamberlain were politically biased. The fact that Chamberlain went for the hope of peace but knowing that he needed to buy time to arm has been omitted from history. It was he that made sure that for example that we had spitfires being built whilst Churchill was wanting bombers.
 
Good question. I suppose the idea is to put pressure on the government(s) to do something.

But I also think it's got something to do with feeling so powerless. Very similar to those who protest with XR and/or Just Stop Oil. There's an understanding that the protesting isn't achieving what the protesters want it to achieve but at the same time there is a feeling that at least one is trying to do something. And trying to do something is better than doing nothing.

I do totally get your question though. I wad on the biggest demo this country has ever seen when there were more than a million people on the streets. It didn't achieve anything though, Blair's government went ahead bombed the fuck out of Iraq and killed many, many innocent people despite the very obvious huge opposition to this. Of course, most if those who didn't support the anti -war message back then we're those who believed the lie that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that he could unleash within 45 minutes.
It is as you know the theory of having a steam release valve available to protestors.
 
Interesting how the opinions on Chamberlain wete piliticaly biased. The fact that Chamberlain went for the hope if peace but knowing that he needed to buy time to arm has been omitted from history. It was he that made sure that for example made sure we had spitfires being built whilst Churchill was wanting bombers.
The victors write the history, and in this case, the victor was a really really good writer (as well as being, for all his tactical errors, right on the big issue of his time).
 
Do you want the killing to stop? Would you join in with the "Ceasefire Now!" chant, and if not, why not?
I think the killing will stop when the hostages are released. Until then, Israel need to do what they need to do to get them back. The decision on how long this goes on for lies with Hamas. So no, no "ceasefire now" chant from me, not whilst there are babies and children still kidnapped.

Can I ask you a reply question? What do think Israel should do? And a quick second one, were there any chants or signs on the demos supporting the victims of the terrorist attack, or asking for the release of the hostages?

 
I apologize Buddha. Nothing in my post was directed at you personally, although I can see how it could be seen as such. As I say, I’m supposed to be marking -60 essays on the political, cataclysmic and eschatological views of war applied to Ukraine or Gaza -but this is more attractive than doing that.
If you fancy killing more time Joker there is a riveting Brexit thread buried A few pages back. I’ll dig it out for you....
 
If you fancy killing more time Joker there is a riveting Brexit thread buried A few pages back. I’ll dig it out for you....

Thanks. If you could find one of the several threads on “do preseason results matter and, if so, in what ways?” that would do too.
 
Very narrowly compartmented Jerry. Hamas was elected a long time ago and has not renewed its mandate. Israel and Palestine are without proper representation, or serious government. Corbyn is following the romantic notions of his youth mixed up with a over identification with Hamas. He is simply incapable of acknowledging their faults.

Many of us can call for a ceasefire in the full knowledge it means little while allowing us to claim virtue. I believe Israel should stop the killing now but I have no inhibition in calling out the murderous actions and future intent of Hamas. The Palestinian people are as valuable to the leadership of James's as the Russian people are to Putin.

I made no comment on Livingstone's comments about Hitler and Zionism. Livingstone did some good things in London but he's rigid
, blinkered and his prejudices have been damaging. Ask Anne Cryer. Certainly Israeli spokespersons and lobbyists try to tar all critics with the antisemitic tag but equally all their critics are not without fault.
It's quite absurd and ridiculous for you to suggest that all the people who are marching in solidarity with Palestine think that the innocent Israelis murdered by Hamas count for nothing.

It would be similarly absurd and ridiculous for me to suggest that all those (including you and I) who were sickened and appalled by the murderous actions of Hamas on October 7th believe that the Israeli government's response is justified and proportionate.

I share your anger with the murderous Hamas. The kidnapping and killing of all those innocent Israelis must be (and generally have been) condemned.

But the scale of the Israeli government's murderous response is neither justified nor proportionate. More than 10,000 Palestinians have been killed, over 4,000 of these are innocent children. More will die because of disease as there is now no clean water or functioning hospitals in Gaza.

I have now marched in solidarity with Palestine in three different cities (Bristol, London and Dublin) and I am utterly convinced that the overwhelming majority of those participating in these demonstrations have been doing so because they simply want the killing to stop immediately.

Of course, there are some people on both sides who want vengeance and more killing. Those people are motivated by hate and by anger but such people, at least on the marches, are few and far between.

How can it be "obvious" to you that those marching think the innocent Israelis who were kidnapped and killed "count for nothing"? Have you been on any of the marches? What evidence do you have to make such a bold (and frankly, quite preposterous) claim?

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. Even if that were not the truth, the Israeli government has gone well beyond an eye for an eye. The killing needs to stop. There is no justification for it to continue.

Your assertion about those marching for Palestine is inaccurate. You are wrong.
I agree with you on so much, Buddha, but not on the intent and aim of these marches. As I said previously, I remember no marches bemaoning the treatment of Gazan citizens, especially Women/girls and the LGBQT community, by their ruling body (up to 32% of women are physically/sexually abused in their homes, homosexuality, although not illegal apparently, is "frowned upon", there are quotes that 6% of marriages involve females under the age of 15 and Gaza operates a "Marry your rapist" philosophy). So, please do not tell me that people on these marches care about the Gazan citizens as once Israel have left Gaza, the vast majority of protetsers will put their "Free Palestine" regalia away and go back to waching Love Island. I haven't been on any of the marches nor will I all the time the plight of hostages isn't protested for. You and I, on aim of the protests and protesters, will have to agree to disagree. One thing I will add, you say the killing is disproportinate but you come up with no suggestions on how Israel should have reacted. They have sort of reacted how we did in WWII. Did that make us worse than Hitler and his mob? So, You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. Just to be clear, I think Israel have done more than enough and should pull out of Gaza ASAP. That isn't asking for a ceasefire (which requires both combatants to down arms), but just for them to realise, imo, that to carry on will achieve nothing. Sadly, due to the actions of the Gazan democratically elected government's actions on Oct 7th (basically a declaration of war) and Israels subsequent actions since, peace in that region is further away then ever.
 
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I agree with you on so much, Buddha, but not on the intent and aim of these marches. As I said previously, I remember no marches bemaoning the treatment of Gazan citizens, especially Women/girls and the LGBQT community, by their ruling body (up to 32% of women are physically/sexually abused in their homes, homosexuality, although not illegal apparently, is "frowned upon", there are quotes that 6% of marriages involve females under the age of 15 and Gaza operates a "Marry your rapist" philosophy). So, please do not tell me that people on these marches care about the Gazan citizens as once Israel have left Gaza, the vast majority of protetsers will put their "Free Palestine" regalia away and go back to waching Love Island. I haven't been on any of the marches nor will I all the time the plight of hostages isn't protested for. You and I, on aim of the protests and protesters, will have to agree to disagree. One thing I will add, you say the killing is disproportinate but you come up with no suggestions on how Israel should have reacted. They have sort of reacted how we did in WWII. Did that make us worse than Hitler and his mob? So, You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. Just to be clear, I think Israel have done more than enough and should pull out of Gaza ASAP. That isn't asking for a ceasefire (which requires both combatants to down arms), but just for them to realise, imo, that to carry on will achieve nothing. Sadly, due to the actions of the Gazan democratically elected government's actions on Oct 7th (basically a declaration of war) and Israels subsequent actions since, peace in that region is further away then ever.
agreed. This is more accurately a war and not terrorism as the state of Gaza attacked the state of Israel.

The marches are tokenism and the danger is that both sides will try to exploit the marchers and we have an escalation of violence and hatred. Using demonstrations as recruiting tools is as old as time and we have SWP type groups plus Fascist groups plus Islamist groups plus the establishment infiltrating.
Hopefully it will not escalate and people will just feel they have done their bit and as you say go back to whatever they were doing and not worry about similar things going on around the world.
It seems that some children are worth saving than other children in another conflict.
 
I agree with you on so much, Buddha, but not on the intent and aim of these marches. As I said previously, I remember no marches bemaoning the treatment of Gazan citizens, especially Women/girls and the LGBQT community, by their ruling body (up to 32% of women are physically/sexually abused in their homes, homosexuality, although not illegal apparently, is "frowned upon", there are quotes that 6% of marriages involve females under the age of 15 and Gaza operates a "Marry your rapist" philosophy). So, please do not tell me that people on these marches care about the Gazan citizens as once Israel have left Gaza, the vast majority of protetsers will put their "Free Palestine" regalia away and go back to waching Love Island. I haven't been on any of the marches nor will I all the time the plight of hostages isn't protested for. You and I, on aim of the protests and protesters, will have to agree to disagree. One thing I will add, you say the killing is disproportinate but you come up with no suggestions on how Israel should have reacted. They have sort of reacted how we did in WWII. Did that make us worse than Hitler and his mob? So, You think I am wrong, I think you are wrong. Just to be clear, I think Israel have done more than enough and should pull out of Gaza ASAP. That isn't asking for a ceasefire (which requires both combatants to down arms), but just for them to realise, imo, that to carry on will achieve nothing. Sadly, due to the actions of the Gazan democratically elected government's actions on Oct 7th (basically a declaration of war) and Israels subsequent actions since, peace in that region is further away then ever.

Mehmets, have a read of this:

 
Jerry, just for information.
The Spitfire came into service with the RAF in August 1938. Production was put on a war footing summer of 1939. Thanks to Neville Chamberlin, Churchill did not need to worry too much about fighters. His push for bombers was it the only way we could hit back at Germany.
 
Jerry, just for information.
The Spitfire came into service with the RAF in August 1938. Production was put on a war footing summer of 1939. Thanks to Neville Chamberlin, Churchill did not need to worry too much about fighters. His push for bombers was it the only way we could hit back at Germany.
His disastrous part in the Gallipoli and Norway campaigns showed he had little tactical ability. What he was good at was the bigger picture and bringing people together.
Interesting that it was Churchills f up of the Norway campaign led to the pressure for the PM to take the blame and resign. The only reason that Churchill was given the PM was that the main parties would not work with the leaders of the other parties.
 
I tthink the killing might stop for a time (pause) if some or all of the hostages were released. It's one essential element but I'm not convinced that what Israel is continuing to do is bringing that any closer and I don't trust Netanyahu in any event. I might be wrong. I hope the Qatar initiative achieves some respite but as jokerman points out Hamas were only interseted in a ceasefire when they found themselves alone and losing.

Both sides have leaderships with no coherent forward plan and no obvious way out with any sort of credit. Worse both face existential threats the minute a real ceasefire takes hold. I think a lot of people on both sides probably want rid, they definitely deserve better.
 
His disastrous part in the Gallipoli and Norway campaigns showed he had little tactical ability. What he was good at was the bigger picture and bringing people together.
Interesting that it was Churchills f up of the Norway campaign led to the pressure for the PM to take the blame and resign. The only reason that Churchill was given the PM was that the main parties would not work with the leaders of the other parties.

Are we actually going to get into a debate about the Norwegian campaign on here? Fabulous. In my view, they should have held on to Narvik and the north. It would have denied the Germans their principal objective in invading -the mineral line out of Sweden. Five words if you want to pan Churchill -the soft underbelly of Europe. Wrong twice about this and the merits of the indirect approach.
 
Virtue signalling. I'm not anti the protests but what is the point? We have no influence, sadly

Pointless posing. Sadly.

Why hasn't Starmer solved the Middle East crisis? Yes, I am being ironic.

Back to the early 1980's and poxy resolutions about the Lebanon when there are crises in this country and global warming. Campaign about what we have some influence over ffs.

Seems people want to avoid voting Labour and let the Tories in again. Well done. 🙄