The cost of Ange-ball..?

[Spursex]

Tottenham: Players paying the price for Ange Postecoglou revolution but history proves it produces results​

The Australian's high-intensity training and tactics means muscle injuries are inevitable


more here: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...coglou-sarr-bentancur-ange-ball-b1130034.html

Dan Kilpatrick @Dan_KP2 hours ago
The boost from Rodrigo Bentancur's surprise return to the Tottenham XI on New Year's Eve — some six weeks ahead of schedule — was offset in just half an hour, when Pape Sarr was the next of Ange Postecoglou's players to suffer an injury.

As Postecoglou acknowledged after the 3-1 win against Bournemouth, this is "the way our season has gone"; one in, one out. As soon as Spurs get a player back from injury or suspension, they almost immediately lose someone else.


Sarr, who had opened the scoring, was forced off with a hamstring problem and looked devastated, although the 21-year-old has been passed fit to make Senegal's squad for this month's Africa Cup of Nations.

Alejo Veliz was also in tears after suffering an injury — cruel timing for the young Argentine ahead of what might have been his first Spurs start against Burnley in the FA Cup on Friday — and he left the stadium on crutches and with a brace on his right leg.

While most Spurs fans were cursing their luck again, Postecoglou will have a more logical take on his squad's unrelenting injuries.

Since the start of the season, Micky van de Ven, James Maddison, Manor Solomon, Ivan Perisic, Cristian Romero, Richarlison, Brennan Johnson, Giovani Lo Celso, Ashley Phillips and Bentancur have all spent a month or more on the sidelines, while Sarr, Destiny Udogie and Eric Dier are among the players to have suffered shorter-term muscle strains.

Bad luck has obviously played a part, while injury pile-ups tend to feed on themselves and get progressively worse; when several players are sidelined at once, the strain on the remaining players makes further injuries more likely.

Postecoglou, though, knows that injuries are also an inevitable consequence of the transformation in playing style he is overseeing at the club.

At a similar stage of Postecoglou's revolution at Celtic, six players were sidelined with hamstring injuries alone..

Van de Ven's injury looked like a direct result of Postecoglou's approach, with the Dutchman's hamstring popping against Chelsea as he raced back to cover the space behind Spurs's high defensive line once again.

By mid-December 2021, at a similar stage of Postecoglou's revolution at Celtic, no fewer than six of his players were sidelined with hamstring injuries alone.
"It's not new to me," Postecoglou said at the time. "We play differently and train differently, and it takes players time to adjust to that, and along the way we obviously pay a price."


It was the same story in Postecoglou's first season at Yokohama F Marinos, though in both Japan and Scotland his injury problems eased in his second year, when his squads were stronger and his players more used to the physical demands of his high-octane brand of football.

As Spurs's players adapt to Postecoglou's approach, there should, in theory, be fewer muscle injuries, although he has said the squad is "nowhere near" strong enough and clearly they need more depth to ensure key players can be rotated.

At Yokohama, Postecoglou's injury problems returned with a vengeance in his third season, as the club struggled with the demands of playing in the Asian Champions League and a congested J-League calendar, underlining that there will always be consequences for his style of play without sufficient squad depth — a warning for Spurs if, as looks likely, they return to Europe next season.
Postecoglou is confident of having Maddison and Van de Ven available this month, as well as Bentancur, which would obviously be welcome but, true to form, Spurs are losing as many key players, with Yves Bissouma joining Sarr at AFCON and skipper Heung-min Son competing in the Asian Cup for South Korea.

 

[Critical_Spur]

All makes sense, but begs the question, seeing we have poor squad depth and youth are seemingly not in consideration, why not compromise with the philosophy during the transitional year? God forbid but some of these injuries can be career ending or a recurring theme for some.

One thing not mentioned in the article is the intensity and physicality demands of the PL compared to Scotland and Asian leagues.

 

[muttley]

There is of course a contradiction here.

If we look at the amount of total mins available and the amount of players consuming those mins, it's clear that Ange is the one making the squad smaller than it actually is. Then Ange preaches to us that the difference between a good player and a great player isn't that much and doesn't make so much difference in the overall outcome (the vid Ex posted a couple of days back).

So what is it? I'm sure Donley, Phillips, Craig, Santiago etc would have loved to share the burden. Some of these haven't played a single minute on that pitch. In Donley's case I think it is actually 1 min, just to waste time.

Related to the same theme, I'm also wondering how often we're only using 3 subs and leaving a couple on the pitch in the red zone. It might not be that match that you get the injury, but it all accumulates.

 

[Matic]

All makes sense, but begs the question, seeing we have poor squad depth and youth are seemingly not in consideration, why not compromise with the philosophy during the transitional year? God forbid but some of these injuries can be career ending or a recurring theme for some.

One thing not mentioned in the article is the intensity and physicality demands of the PL compared to Scotland and Asian leagues.

Unless he thinks the risk is worth it because it is a transitional year and the expectations are still lower.

Ali Gold has spoken a lot in his podcast and youtube vids about this same subject and the fact that Ange currently thinks everything is on the on the right course is reassuring.

 

[Critical_Spur]

Unless he thinks the risk is worth it because it is a transitional year and the expectations are still lower.

Ali Gold has spoken a lot in his podcast and youtube vids about this same subject and the fact that Ange currently thinks everything is on the on the right course is reassuring.

Risk would definitely be worth it if had re-assurances from upstairs that he will be backed in the transfer market and in a timely manner. Hope he gets the support (acid test Jan TW) else the whole long term approach can derail very quickly. Poch burnt his limited chosen few out very quickly with limited refresh. There is precedence.

 

[USAFSPURS]

I don't really see it as a risk...this is their job. It is a style of play...adapt. If you can't, then we move you on. No emotion here, just the reality of things. (same goes for injury prone players like Sess....if we can't have you playing regularly....)

They are being asked to actually play football....unlike under the previous regimes where they were asked to do sit back and get hammered all day.

 

[muttley]

Not sure the current "break them, fix them" philosophy sits well with me. VDV had 76 days out with a hamstring injury in the 20/21 season. This current hammie is strike 2 for him. We all saw what can happen with Dele and Sess when it gets to strike 3 and 4. It's can easily end up with an adapted player whose superpowers have weakened considerably.

We had better hurry up strengthening if we really want to use rotation as an excuse for the physical burden on the squad.

 

[Matic]

Not sure the current "break them, fix them" philosophy sits well with me. VDV had 76 days out with a hamstring injury in the 20/21 season. This current hammie is strike 2 for him. We all saw what can happen with Dele and Sess when it gets to strike 3 and 4. It's can easily end up with an adapted player whose superpowers have weakened considerably.

We had better hurry up strengthening if we really want to use rotation as an excuse for the physical burden on the squad.

I don't think the philosophy is to break them. I think its more about fine tuning their bodies to deal with the intensity - something has been neglected at Spurs for as long as I can remember. Really, the only bad hammy injury has been VdV's hasn't it? Romero's is a hammy strain, but not like VdV's.

The other injuries are more impacts / ligament tears aren't they?

 

[Spursex]

I don't really see it as a risk...this is their job. It is a style of play...adapt. If you can't, then we move you on. No emotion here, just the reality of things. (same goes for injury prone players like Sess....if we can't have you playing regularly....)

They are being asked to actually play football....unlike under the previous regimes where they were asked to do sit back and get hammered all day.

I can tell you now, there will be players and their agents who look at this style of play and simply say, 'it ain't for me, or it ain't for you'. It shortens careers and punctuates others with an almost non-stop run of injuries.

I'm told that it is the equivalent of running a marathon every week, whilst doing sprints every few hundred yards, and getting kicked and pushed over at the same time - no matter how fit you are that's going to take an accumulative toll.

Worst of all, is often when these issues or long term injuries persist, the clubs couldn't care less and let them rot before dumping them out of the door.

It's a shitty business at times.

 

[Matic]

I can tell you now, there will be players and their agents who look at this style of play and simply say, 'it ain't for me, or it ain't for you'. It shortens careers and punctuates others with an almost non-stop run of injuries.

I'm told that it is the equivalent of running a marathon every week, whilst doing sprints every few hundred yards, and getting kicked and pushed over at the same time - no matter how fit you are that's going to take an accumulative toll.

Worst of all, is often when these issues or long term injuries persist, the clubs couldn't care less and let them rot before dumping them out of the door.

It's a shitty business at times.

It should be said, at the same time, there will be plenty of agents pushing their young clients into making big impacts early on. Then there are the players who won't take advise from anyone because they are so desperate to be a success.

This problem comes from 3 angles.

 

[Spursex]

It should be said, at the same time, there will be plenty of agents pushing their young clients into making big impacts early on. Then there are the players who won't take advise from anyone because they are so desperate to be a success.

This problem comes from 3 angles.

The duty of care rules for agents and for clubs now means here is less of that now than ever - they carry a real litigious reckoning if they do.

 

[USAFSPURS]

I can tell you now, there will be players and their agents who look at this style of play and simply say, 'it ain't for me, or it ain't for you'. It shortens careers and punctuates others with an almost non-stop run of injuries.

I'm told that it is the equivalent of running a marathon every week, whilst doing sprints every few hundred yards, and getting kicked and pushed over at the same time - no matter how fit you are that's going to take an accumulative toll.

Worst of all, is often when these issues or long term injuries persist, the clubs couldn't care less and let them rot before dumping them out of the door.

It's a shitty business at times.

Very true...but in the end it is the business they are in. And I am 100% ok if players look at the AP system and say 'nope, not for me'....hell that is intelligent if you know yourself that well and know that is isn't for you.

Also don't forget...they get paid a hell of a lot of money for what they do. I don't have too much sympathy. (maybe a little in some cases...)

 

[steveperryman]

I can tell you now, there will be players and their agents who look at this style of play and simply say, 'it ain't for me, or it ain't for you'. It shortens careers and punctuates others with an almost non-stop run of injuries.

I'm told that it is the equivalent of running a marathon every week, whilst doing sprints every few hundred yards, and getting kicked and pushed over at the same time - no matter how fit you are that's going to take an accumulative toll.

Worst of all, is often when these issues or long term injuries persist, the clubs couldn't care less and let them rot before dumping them out of the door.

It's a shitty business at times.

We've been here before with Poch so this isn't something new we're experiencing. Let's hop we handle it a lot better second time around.

 

[muttley]

We've been here before with Poch so this isn't something new we're experiencing. Let's hop we handle it a lot better second time around.

I was trying to recall Poch's squad journey with injuries. In my mind it was the accumulation of burnout over 3 seasons. In reality, it probably wasn't.

We had Wimmer covering for Vertonghen for a stint at an early stage. We had the Toby injury with Sanchez covering in 2018. Whilst Walker was always durable, Rose definitely wasn't. Cue Davies covering a lot.

In midfield, Dier was the robust one for years and then he broke down after the Appendix op. Wanyama had one big season and never recovered from the knee. Winks also had the ankle issues that continued until very recently. Eriksen and Dele run themselves into the ground, but then Dele broke down with soft tissue.

Up top, Lamela was made of glass whilst Sonny always seemed pretty robust. So was Kane until the left ankle issue but also had a good innings without injuries.

When I think about that core 14 or 15 players, it doesn't feel the same as right now. Ange has been at the club less than 6 months and we don't even have any UEFA football. All the players had a full summer off as well. There's loads of recovery time between matches and yet the players are still breaking down.

It just feels different from the Poch years to me.

 

[Love totty]

I was trying to recall Poch's squad journey with injuries. In my mind it was the accumulation of burnout over 3 seasons. In reality, it probably wasn't.

We had Wimmer covering for Vertonghen for a stint at an early stage. We had the Toby injury with Sanchez covering in 2018. Whilst Walker was always durable, Rose definitely wasn't. Cue Davies covering a lot.

In midfield, Dier was the robust one for years and then he broke down after the Appendix op. Wanyama had one big season and never recovered from the knee. Winks also had the ankle issues that continued until very recently. Eriksen and Dele run themselves into the ground, but then Dele broke down with soft tissue.

Up top, Lamela was made of glass whilst Sonny always seemed pretty robust. So was Kane until the left ankle issue but also had a good innings without injuries.

When I think about that core 14 or 15 players, it doesn't feel the same as right now. Ange has been at the club less than 6 months and we don't even have any UEFA football. All the players had a full summer off as well. There's loads of recovery time between matches and yet the players are still breaking down.

It just feels different from the Poch years to me.

Injuries are one thing, being fit and able to perform the high press is another. We had pretty high possession stats in most of our early games which kept the pressure off the defence. That's the essence of Angeball it seems to me and I worry that it might not be sustainable in the PL.

 

[muttley]

Of course, what we also don't know yet is how much Ange is into rotation and how he approaches it.

Pep's approach has always been interesting. He keeps a player as a regular sub for a period and then he unleashes them and makes them a mainstay in the starting eleven. That of course will be at the expense of another who then follows the same process. The press always assume that someone like Stones or Foden are out of form and then the next minute they're stealing the headlines and holding trophies aloft.

Pep has definitely found ways of keeping his players happy and rotated, whilst keeping them fresh. I hope Ange has a similar approach. Obviously, as soon as Spurs follow the Pep model then the transfer rumours will appear about our players. Can you imagine Romero getting a natural rest and spending a month on the bench?

 

[Matic]

Of course, what we also don't know yet is how much Ange is into rotation and how he approaches it.

Pep's approach has always been interesting. He keeps a player as a regular sub for a period and then he unleashes them and makes them a mainstay in the starting eleven. That of course will be at the expense of another who then follows the same process. The press always assume that someone like Stones or Foden are out of form and then the next minute they're stealing the headlines and holding trophies aloft.

Pep has definitely found ways of keeping his players happy and rotated, whilst keeping them fresh. I hope Ange has a similar approach. Obviously, as soon as Spurs follow the Pep model then the transfer rumours will appear about our players. Can you imagine Romero getting a natural rest and spending a month on the bench?

Man City have a very different set up. They have the kind of world class depth only big money can afford, with massive wages throughout the squad that keeps a lot of the unrest at bay. It is unlikely that we will ever reach that point.

I'm still not seeing this 'breakdown' from the tactics of Ange ball. Only Romero and VdV have soft-tissue injuries. Plus, the injury lists throughout the entire EPL are much longer than normal, with longer game times and cooldown during VAR checks and late-calls on offsides being researched as big factors.

 

[Spursex]

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[Littlest Hobo]

If i remember rightly Pochs issue was that it was a 3 year cycle of burnout. Very similar to Klopps and a few other higen pressing teams. The real solution was squad depth and rotation. Poch/Spurs got both wrong when we were peaking. We needed to add to the squad so that we could maintain the levels whilst resting key players and avoiding injuries. Poch/Kane/Son/Ali/Eriksen all got it wrong by playing every single minute of every game. They either paid the price with injuries or reduced performance. It was stupid of Poch and the reason he is not up to being a big team manager. He is doing it at chelsea. He will find a good combination but then he will stick to it until he falls on his sword. Top managers like Pep find the good combination and then push and push to find alternatives at every opportunity without spoiling the original setup. It takes money but also a manager with vision.

Our current situation i think isnt as bad as some say here. VDV could be as much about VAR delays as any training etc. He got cold and did his hammy in the match. Maddison did his injury mid game. Bents was assasinated by that tosser Cash.

A few more additions this transfer window plus the players getting more acclimatised and i am not too worried. Its the next transfer window we will see the big picture. If the get a settled team over next 6 months but then Ange/Spurs stop the progress with the squad it will fall apart.

 

[Gary Onedaysoon]

The two players I'd be most worried about are Porro and Udogie.

Porro has played 19 consecutive league matches and is rarely substituted. Udogie has played 17 but with a couple of weeks off in between.

The positions they play are incredibly demanding. And Udogie is still a young player acclimatising to the PL.

The other two players in the danger zone (based on number of matches played) are Son and Kulsevski. Kulu did himself a favour getting suspended for Bournemouth.

I'd consider resting Porro for Burnley and bringing him back for the United game. Then perhaps rest him again until the Brentford game on the 31st. Royal, whilst not at Porro's level, is still a good replacement for the two cup games.

Udogie is much more of a problem. We don't have any comparable cover for him. And I wouldn't like to see us go into any game with him and Porro missing at the same time.