Relegation Form | Page 6 | Vital Football

Relegation Form

I loved the Cowley‘s time here in terms of the success they brought and some of the players and style they brought to the game. I was not a big fan of their gamesmanship, though it does seem to be the way a large number of teams perform these days. Unfortunately the officials are oblivious to the real effect of it and so much goes on that they simply can’t cope, or end up stopping the game every couple of minutes. My point is though that, as much as they did for this club, I’m not sure I’d want them back, and I don’t think they’d come given the restrictions on budget. They could certainly do a job and win matches, but at a cost. My main point though is their control over recruitment (& everything else). They lived and breathed LCFC and had control over everything. I don’t know how much MA and now MK have comparatively, but if it’s less hands-on maybe this explains some of the difference in the club’s recruitment and ultimately how they perform. I’m speculating and may be wrong so it’s more an observation.
 
The Cowley brothers were a perfect fit for us at the time; just the jolt that the Club needed to spark some life back in to it, and get us back in to the EFL. Also don’t underestimate the effort that these guys put in towards making the Club attractive to the community, whilst raising the profile of the Club nationally. All the success was achieved under the backing of a superb Board of course. What we need now is something different, something a bit more nuanced. We tried Appleton. Now we are trying Kennedy. To be honest, since the Cowleys departed, it’s been a struggle to see how the side has developed at all - we have no identity, and a squad that doesn’t seem to be on the same wavelength to each other, or the head coach, much of the time. So, the problem is, if our ‘slide’ continues, will bringing the brothers back become an attractive proposition again? I hope that we don’t find ourselves in that position. We really need to find some impetus and a way to gel this squad - 3-4 key players in the right positions are a must. At the moment we don’t have the quality or consistency to keep us in L1 I’m afraid - we may survive (again) this year, but how about next? Or everything may slot together and we hit the giddy heights of lower top half of the table. I’m happy to give Kennedy more time - but he needs the recruitment to work in his favour over this window. We follow our Club, not just through it being in our DNA, but also to be entertained, and see progression. If that’s at a snail’s pace then that’s fine, but at the moment I don’t see where we’ve improved significantly (on the pitch) over the last three years. We have some creative players, and technically more skilled players, but other than a handful of games where we have taken them by the scruff of the neck or defended stoutly, it just isn’t working week-in, week-out. Some will point to the unbeaten home form (but at what cost?) or to a prolonged stay in L1 being a high point in our history (but does it feel that good?) or to cup runs this year (both at an end), and say we shouldn’t have greater expectations. All of these ‘successes’ have merit and should give us comfort that we’re heading in the right direction - but do you feel that we are? Maybe yes, maybe no; that’s all down to the individual - but isn’t the passion, in supporting a Club, to have lofty ambitions for the future? Why be realistic - we have a competent Board to keep the Club grounded, so I think it’s fine for supporters to be a little over-demanding.
 
I think we have reached a pivotal point. This needs to be a busy transfer window to show the fans the club recognises the mess we are in.
If nothing else the fans deserve it. Considering how poor we were last season and the financial situation and hardship in the country the uptake of season tickets amazed me at the start of the season. Yes we are unbeaten at home but there has been zero entertainment in the majority of woeful performances. If we continue to perform as we are I can see a big fall in uptake next season.
Jez George and the recruitment team need to do what they are getting well paid to do. I admit to having listened to what he says at Fans Forums etc.. and everything he says makes sense. How they painstakingly watch hours of videos of players etc etc etc. All sounds great but we're are the results? Currently Mandriou and House look like great recruitment. But then we have and have had Robson, Sorrensen, Vernam, Bishop etc league two standard at best. And absolutely no player of any worth in midfield. It seems to me that the main policy is find injury prone players we can get cheap who once performed reasonably well and take a punt on them.
Nobody seems to know if MK has had any input in recruitment but if he hasn't had the major say in it he has been badly let down. I don't care who the Manager is but if you don't have the tools you can't do the job.
 
“ To be honest, since the Cowleys departed, it’s been a struggle to see how the side has developed at all”

That is an unbelievable comment. We’re not having the best season but Appleton took us to one game from the Championship playing some of the best football ever seen at Lincoln. In that division that season we probably had the clearest identity of any team. Sadly barring the playoffs we were unable to watch which probably meant Appleton didn’t get as much credit in the bank.

Yes, acknowledge we’re not in a good moment but don’t rewrite history.
 
Imp13 said:
“ To be honest, since the Cowleys departed, it’s been a struggle to see how the side has developed at all”

That is an unbelievable comment. We’re not having the best season but Appleton took us to one game from the Championship playing some of the best football ever seen at Lincoln. In that division that season we probably had the clearest identity of any team. Sadly barring the playoffs we were unable to watch which probably meant Appleton didn’t get as much credit in the bank.

Yes, acknowledge we’re not in a good moment but don’t rewrite history.
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I was just about to comment something similar. For long periods of that season we were the best team I’ve seen in this league since we’ve been back in league one, bar none. The issue was, and this is no criticism as we didn’t have the resources, we didn’t have the squad depth in the new year when the injuries crept in. Had we had this, we’d have walked the league
 
Imp13 said:
“ To be honest, since the Cowleys departed, it’s been a struggle to see how the side has developed at all”

That is an unbelievable comment. We’re not having the best season but Appleton took us to one game from the Championship playing some of the best football ever seen at Lincoln. In that division that season we probably had the clearest identity of any team. Sadly barring the playoffs we were unable to watch which probably meant Appleton didn’t get as much credit in the bank.

Yes, acknowledge we’re not in a good moment but don’t rewrite history.
Click to expand...

I agree with your point and you can't ignore the period in between now and then, but if it's a vague argument that we don't have a better team now than we did when the Cowleys left it's not totally absurd. We'd just beaten a pretty strong albeit off colour Huddersfield team in the cup and we could pick off teams like Accrington at home. Well organised team with Toffolo, Anderson, Grant, Walker, O'Connor, even Payne, Bozzy etc I think would beat us at the moment.

We know the debates about budgets and playing styles etc etc and it's absurd to say there hasn't been any progression at all since when you look at what happened in 2020/21, but I wouldn't say I think the squad or system is in much better shape at the moment than it was if you're not considering the intervening period. It's not really a linear, upwards progression. We were really good in 2020/21 and then not really very good after (or just before!) it.
 
It is pointless harking back to the Cowleys. It's history now and totally unhelpful in our current situation. They won't be coming back anytime soon.
It is up to MK and his management team to get us out of this mess.
This will be the biggest test yet of his management career and I hope for the sake of us all he passes it.
 
Ruskingtony said:
I think we have reached a pivotal point. This needs to be a busy transfer window to show the fans the club recognises the mess we are in.
If nothing else the fans deserve it. Considering how poor we were last season and the financial situation and hardship in the country the uptake of season tickets amazed me at the start of the season. Yes we are unbeaten at home but there has been zero entertainment in the majority of woeful performances. If we continue to perform as we are I can see a big fall in uptake next season.
Jez George and the recruitment team need to do what they are getting well paid to do. I admit to having listened to what he says at Fans Forums etc.. and everything he says makes sense. How they painstakingly watch hours of videos of players etc etc etc. All sounds great but we're are the results? Currently Mandriou and House look like great recruitment. But then we have and have had Robson, Sorrensen, Vernam, Bishop etc league two standard at best. And absolutely no player of any worth in midfield. It seems to me that the main policy is find injury prone players we can get cheap who once performed reasonably well and take a punt on them.
Nobody seems to know if MK has had any input in recruitment but if he hasn't had the major say in it he has been badly let down. I don't care who the Manager is but if you don't have the tools you can't do the job.
Click to expand...

I get your point that fans deserve better, however, I would suggest Clive, fellow directors and significant investors also deserve better bearing in mind there is more at stake for them.
 
Ruskingtony said:
I think we have reached a pivotal point. This needs to be a busy transfer window to show the fans the club recognises the mess we are in.
If nothing else the fans deserve it. Considering how poor we were last season and the financial situation and hardship in the country the uptake of season tickets amazed me at the start of the season. Yes we are unbeaten at home but there has been zero entertainment in the majority of woeful performances. If we continue to perform as we are I can see a big fall in uptake next season.
Jez George and the recruitment team need to do what they are getting well paid to do. I admit to having listened to what he says at Fans Forums etc.. and everything he says makes sense. How they painstakingly watch hours of videos of players etc etc etc. All sounds great but we're are the results? Currently Mandriou and House look like great recruitment. But then we have and have had Robson, Sorrensen, Vernam, Bishop etc league two standard at best. And absolutely no player of any worth in midfield. It seems to me that the main policy is find injury prone players we can get cheap who once performed reasonably well and take a punt on them.
Nobody seems to know if MK has had any input in recruitment but if he hasn't had the major say in it he has been badly let down. I don't care who the Manager is but if you don't have the tools you can't do the job.
Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree, we need to do enough to ensure survival (which the board did in a January window when MA was in charge and we went over budget) and then regroup in the summer when our targets are cheaper / free. The season is over for us apart from survival which is our sole remaining goal.
 
Who has the final say on players coming in?? The final say should be with MK & DB also on which players go out on loan, young Kendall is not so young now, and a footballers tjme is short, he is 22yrs old and should now be given his chance the same as Ben House who has reached a good standard very quickly, what has he( Kendall),got to give us, 25 goals a season or what? who knows if he's not given a chance. Get Vernam up to the standard of finishing his pacy runs with a more successive finish, coach these players with the experienced players.
We do have a very strong squad, proving this with the results against the top clubs, and remember bad officials decisions in Bolton, Ipswich and southampton games taking 4 points and alot of money from the cup game off of us.What does the club need to do, come on Clive we need some big decisions to be made, and very quickly I think MK can do a good job for us, but needs full control. I'm sure our players don't miss much with what happens at the 'Trg Ground'.Mark Kennedy NEEDS FULL CONTROL, please.

Come on Boys.
 
PerthImp said:
I loved the Cowley‘s time here in terms of the success they brought and some of the players and style they brought to the game. I was not a big fan of their gamesmanship, though it does seem to be the way a large number of teams perform these days. Unfortunately the officials are oblivious to the real effect of it and so much goes on that they simply can’t cope, or end up stopping the game every couple of minutes. My point is though that, as much as they did for this club, I’m not sure I’d want them back, and I don’t think they’d come given the restrictions on budget. They could certainly do a job and win matches, but at a cost. My main point though is their control over recruitment (& everything else). They lived and breathed LCFC and had control over everything. I don’t know how much MA and now MK have comparatively, but if it’s less hands-on maybe this explains some of the difference in the club’s recruitment and ultimately how they perform. I’m speculating and may be wrong so it’s more an observation.
Click to expand...
Tbh, nowadays I don't think Managers/Head Coaches want the sort of hands-on approach of yesteryear. Football has obviously evolved massively down the years and I suspect even those old school managers who had ultimate control wouldn't want it in this day and age.
 
Ruskingtony said:
I think we have reached a pivotal point. This needs to be a busy transfer window to show the fans the club recognises the mess we are in.
If nothing else the fans deserve it. Considering how poor we were last season and the financial situation and hardship in the country the uptake of season tickets amazed me at the start of the season. Yes we are unbeaten at home but there has been zero entertainment in the majority of woeful performances. If we continue to perform as we are I can see a big fall in uptake next season.
Jez George and the recruitment team need to do what they are getting well paid to do. I admit to having listened to what he says at Fans Forums etc.. and everything he says makes sense. How they painstakingly watch hours of videos of players etc etc etc. All sounds great but we're are the results? Currently Mandriou and House look like great recruitment. But then we have and have had Robson, Sorrensen, Vernam, Bishop etc league two standard at best. And absolutely no player of any worth in midfield. It seems to me that the main policy is find injury prone players we can get cheap who once performed reasonably well and take a punt on them.
Nobody seems to know if MK has had any input in recruitment but if he hasn't had the major say in it he has been badly let down. I don't care who the Manager is but if you don't have the tools you can't do the job.
Click to expand...
I don't 100% know this, but I'd be willing to be 99.999% certain that MK has an input in recruitment i.e. final say on who comes in and goes out. Whether that translates to being as involved in identifying and shortlisting the best options for us based on type of player, transfer fee, wage demands etc.
 
Franky73 said:
Who has the final say on players coming in?? The final say should be with MK & DB also on which players go out on loan, young Kendall is not so young now, and a footballers tjme is short, he is 22yrs old and should now be given his chance the same as Ben House who has reached a good standard very quickly, what has he( Kendall),got to give us, 25 goals a season or what? who knows if he's not given a chance. Get Vernam up to the standard of finishing his pacy runs with a more successive finish, coach these players with the experienced players.
We do have a very strong squad, proving this with the results against the top clubs, and remember bad officials decisions in Bolton, Ipswich and southampton games taking 4 points and alot of money from the cup game off of us.What does the club need to do, come on Clive we need some big decisions to be made, and very quickly I think MK can do a good job for us, but needs full control. I'm sure our players don't miss much with what happens at the 'Trg Ground'.Mark Kennedy NEEDS FULL CONTROL, please.

Come on Boys.
Click to expand...

Very strong squad wasn’t what I was thinking last night when we brought on a lad out of the youth off the bench when we were chasing the game.
 
Luke Imp said:
I don't 100% know this, but I'd be willing to be 99.999% certain that MK has an input in recruitment i.e. final say on who comes in and goes out. Whether that translates to being as involved in identifying and shortlisting the best options for us based on type of player, transfer fee, wage demands etc.
Click to expand...

There was an Athletic article with Kennedy after he was appointed, which talked about how it would work. Just had a quick look back at it - the article said:

"The director of football model behind the scenes is designed to leave whoever is head coach with as much opportunity for player development as possible, with the hierarchy believing in giving their head coaches time."

While the actual quotes from MK were:

MK "Here we’re trying to get players that fit a profile and the head coach is part of that discussion, but when it’s their time to move on the club is in a better place for the next guy.”

“The biggest compliment I can pay the club is that if we are successful it’s because we have done it together and if we are not, then it will be down to me,” Kennedy says. “That’s because the infrastructure is here to be successful. A club is not doing their job properly if they are not aware of who is out there in terms of players and managers. Every club should be in contact with people regardless of the level they are at. It’s not a case of losing, for example, a left-back tomorrow and then thinking, ‘What will we do?’.

From my perspective there is clearly some input and conversations/involvement with the manager, but I also got the feeling that Appleton wasn't very happy with how recruitment had gone based on some of his comments after games etc last season. Kennedy seemed extremely pro this model and knew Jez George, but I thought his comments after yesterday's defeat implied he hadn't quite got the tools even if the club was trying.
 
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Imp13 said:
“ To be honest, since the Cowleys departed, it’s been a struggle to see how the side has developed at all”

That is an unbelievable comment. We’re not having the best season but Appleton took us to one game from the Championship playing some of the best football ever seen at Lincoln. In that division that season we probably had the clearest identity of any team. Sadly barring the playoffs we were unable to watch which probably meant Appleton didn’t get as much credit in the bank.

Yes, acknowledge we’re not in a good moment but don’t rewrite history.
Click to expand...
That season was for a couple of reasons an absolute anomaly. I actually couldn't watch any of it. Empty stadia was soul destroying. I guess I can't really comment on the quality. But I just belive other factors were at play that season which worked very much in our favour. So yes we need to move on from the Cowleys era but also the empty stadium season too.
 
elkimp said:
That season was for a couple of reasons an absolute anomaly. I actually couldn't watch any of it. Empty stadia was soul destroying. I guess I can't really comment on the quality. But I just belive other factors were at play that season which worked very much in our favour. So yes we need to move on from the Cowleys era but also the empty stadium season too.
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The way we are currently playing it is pointless looking back to the last match never mind looking back at previous seasons. It is all about the next match at the moment and boy is it important.
 
PerthImp said:
I loved the Cowley‘s time here in terms of the success they brought and some of the players and style they brought to the game. I was not a big fan of their gamesmanship, though it does seem to be the way a large number of teams perform these days. Unfortunately the officials are oblivious to the real effect of it and so much goes on that they simply can’t cope, or end up stopping the game every couple of minutes. My point is though that, as much as they did for this club, I’m not sure I’d want them back, and I don’t think they’d come given the restrictions on budget. They could certainly do a job and win matches, but at a cost. My main point though is their control over recruitment (& everything else). They lived and breathed LCFC and had control over everything. I don’t know how much MA and now MK have comparatively, but if it’s less hands-on maybe this explains some of the difference in the club’s recruitment and ultimately how they perform. I’m speculating and may be wrong so it’s more an observation.
Click to expand...

They lived and breathed LCFC because it was their job in the same way they lived and breathed Portsmouth FC because it was their job and in the same way they will live and breathe whatever their next club is.

That doesn't mean they didn't have an affinity with Lincoln as they did with Pompey BUT, had they not been given the manager's job at Lincoln, we would never had heard of them. They didn't have control over everything but did have an input far greater than MA or MK have.

You are exactly right that though, now we are L1 and not NL, the manager's role is now more a head coach role. That is the way the game goes now.
 
Imp13 said:
“ To be honest, since the Cowleys departed, it’s been a struggle to see how the side has developed at all”

That is an unbelievable comment. We’re not having the best season but Appleton took us to one game from the Championship playing some of the best football ever seen at Lincoln. In that division that season we probably had the clearest identity of any team. Sadly barring the playoffs we were unable to watch which probably meant Appleton didn’t get as much credit in the bank.

Yes, acknowledge we’re not in a good moment but don’t rewrite history.
Click to expand...
You are missing the point. I’m not rewriting history, and would fully acknowledge that the season that we made the play-offs final was arguably the best in a very long time. To bring it back on point, as that season was a bit of an anomaly, lets compare the end of the Cowley’s reign to where we are now - have we progressed in terms of having an established style and composition of squad? What has been in between has undeniably happened, and happily so, but that was a short crest in our history and we now find ourselves in a position where we are no better off than the time when MA took charge. Or do we? That’s the question - nothing to do with rewriting history, just comparing two data points. We could compare where we are now to the point where we lost 0-4 at Tamworth in the National League. Definitely an improvement there! But this thread had moved to a discussion about the legacy of the Cowley’s compared to our present position. So I stand by my comment.
 
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