Punting on the Cam vs Walking on the Duggie

[king_dezeeuw06]

I'm not saying that anything you have posted is incorrect, I am saying the mentality issues you mention are in my opinion related to the inexperience of the squad and more experienced teams are taking the advantage.

In most of the games you mentioned we started off on the front foot at the beginning of the game, but when it became obvious that those teams were not going to give us the space in behind frustration sets in and our lack of experience leads to a sort of malaise.

If we had the leadership of a James McClean or Sam Morsy type player then it is more likely that they would lead the others out of it by example.

Unfortunately for us all we have are young players in leadership roles who have not yet acquired that ability.

Experience obviously helps in football, i don't think the intensity issue is down to experience. A good example is McMannaman played with the intensity he has now when he was a young lad.

I think the issue is more complacency as we raise or drop our effort levels based on the oppositions league position.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I'm sorry KDZ, I know you've been consistent on this, and you've been through the players to justify your opinion, but at the start of the season, our squad generally consisted of:
- highly paid players we couldn't get rid of.
- youngsters with potential but little experience
- loanees who were completely unknown (even though they all seemed to have pedigree), and
- a few players who we brought in for free.

They may have proven over the season that they are better quality than what other teams have, but let's remember that those players have also played like dogcrap in some games. (Cue the bit about motivation, tactics and the rile of the manager, and the point is obviously taken there).


Absolutely fully agree with both of those points.

We've probably got 10 players in Tickle, Hughes, Kerr, Morrison, Chambers, Godo, Jones, M Smith, Aasgaard, Humphrys would virtually all get into the side of everyone from midtable to the bottom in L1. The rest of our squad is more of a mixed bag, some probably would get into some sides but not others, and some not get into others. We've got quite a lot of young internationals compared to the average L1 side.

How many players from the mid to bottom of L1 have stood out as players we'd have loved to have in our side? There will certainly be some but it's not a long list like it would've been we were in the Championship and every week we saw vastly superior players.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Fixing issues doesn't happen overnight unfortunately. Everything that TB says in his reply to yourself, I second. And that is with all due respect to you KDZ.

No disrespect taken.

I agree with Maloney when he said it's less about ability and more about in the head. If he can change it given more time we'll find out at the start of next season.

 

[moonay]

We've probably got 10 players in Tickle, Hughes, Kerr, Morrison, Chambers, Godo, Jones, M Smith, Aasgaard, Humphrys would virtually all get into the side of everyone from midtable to the bottom in L1. The rest of our squad is more of a mixed bag, some probably would get into some sides but not others, and some not get into others. We've got quite a lot of young internationals compared to the average L1 side.

How many players from the mid to bottom of L1 have stood out as players we'd have loved to have in our side? There will certainly be some but it's not a long list like it would've been we were in the Championship and every week we saw vastly superior players.

Some of those players may well do as you say, but at the start of the season, some were purely potential, others had a big question mark against them and one (Smith) could presumably have gone anywhere, but ended up at a club just been taken over after failing to pay wages umpteen times.

Also, these players who would get into every other team aren't doing it here for us right now, so why would anyone else want them? It's a bugger isn't it?

We can't have that the players are top notch, and yet put the majority of the blame onto the manager for recent performances. Some, absolutely, most? ... nope.

We've had the discussion before, and we happily agreed to disagree ... best to do the same again I feel.

 

[Blue Feather]

From the ex players amongst us on here one of the issues which I don't think has been mentioned much or deep dived is :-

Consistency & Understanding, Faith & Stability...

Consistency from knowing the players around you, what they are going to do, were they are going to move, and understanding the movement & agreed patterns between the areas on the pitch - ? Have we ever had a consistent team selection at all over the season ?

Faith -: believe in the manager and his belief in you ? -Again, have we had a strong core player selection in the SAME positions ? Multiple 2nd half substitutions undermining confidence, in one minute out the next ? To me this has an underminding effect to try "too hard" make the "wrong decision" take the shot when the pass was better, try to be the assist maker when again the offload or pass was the right choice... Etc etc

Stability - look at the top 5 teams and other than injuries have played with a stable team selection throughout ... To be honest and fair here this point is difficult given the choices, frees, no budget at the start of the season.

The critical point I find hard is the huge variation in player selection , tactical application and getting it wrong so often causing a mass exodus of players at half time on a consistent basis ?? This is purely down to the manager and this is possibly Maloney's Achilles heel, so I really worry for next season based on this.

Does he need a stronger No 2 or someone with far more managerial experience he can lean on. ? I know the players share some responsibility but I then re-read the points above.

Not after an argument just sounding out my feelings on it...

 

[Frank Bullitt]

From the ex players amongst us on here one of the issues which I don't think has been mentioned much or deep dived is :-

Consistency & Understanding, Faith & Stability...

Consistency from knowing the players around you, what they are going to do, were they are going to move, and understanding the movement & agreed patterns between the areas on the pitch - ? Have we ever had a consistent team selection at all over the season ?

Faith -: believe in the manager and his belief in you ? -Again, have we had a strong core player selection in the SAME positions ? Multiple 2nd half substitutions undermining confidence, in one minute out the next ? To me this has an underminding effect to try "too hard" make the "wrong decision" take the shot when the pass was better, try to be the assist maker when again the offload or pass was the right choice... Etc etc

Stability - look at the top 5 teams and other than injuries have played with a stable team selection throughout ... To be honest and fair here this point is difficult given the choices, frees, no budget at the start of the season.

The critical point I find hard is the huge variation in player selection , tactical application and getting it wrong so often causing a mass exodus of players at half time on a consistent basis ?? This is purely down to the manager and this is possibly Maloney's Achilles heel, so I really worry for next season based on this.

Does he need a stronger No 2 or someone with far more managerial experience he can lean on. ? I know the players share some responsibility but I then re-read the points above.

Not after an argument just sounding out my feelings on it...

I think all of those points have been covered over the past few months but not all in one post.
Hit the nail on the head on all points, can't argue with that at all, great post.

 

[jeffs right]

We know most sides in L1 have a smaller budget and less quality of player than we have this season, so we do have an advantage. Not as big as we've had in past years but we still have that. But that counts for absolutely nothing as hard work always beats talent when it doesn't work hard.

No snobbery at all, no one is saying that we deserve to get the points by turning up. But the issue is we should turn up against everyone rather than as Maloney said 'taking our foot off the gas' against the lesser sides.

Usually against the better sides we are under more pressure and have less control of the games and have less possession and time to dominate the passing. Against the lesser sides we have more possession and dominate the passing but all that possession is done in a most tedious and negative way. Slow build up from the back, lack of dribbles and attacking defenders and wing players that do not go around defenders to the byline and cut the ball back. Our throw ins rarely even go forward.

 

[R Blackid]

Just shows how disinterested the players are today, 1-0 down nobody moves when we have a throw in then the ref gives it to them because we took so long.

I also thought he gave Cambridge the throw for not taking the throw quick enough, but in all my many years watching football I've never seen this before, or thought the rules allowed it.

Did I miss seeing a foul throw?

 

[AbramLatic1]

I also thought he gave Cambridge the throw for not taking the throw quick enough, but in all my many years watching football I've never seen this before, or thought the rules allowed it.

Did I miss seeing a foul throw?

I thought same as you, imagine though you were able to see it slightly better than me, being in the stand rather than at pitch level, didn't seem like he'd given it for a foul throw

 

[Th10]

I also thought he gave Cambridge the throw for not taking the throw quick enough, but in all my many years watching football I've never seen this before, or thought the rules allowed it.

Did I miss seeing a foul throw?

I’m not sure I’ve never seen it before either. Perhaps they should’ve been awarded a penalty after we made such a fuck up with ours too!

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I also thought he gave Cambridge the throw for not taking the throw quick enough, but in all my many years watching football I've never seen this before, or thought the rules allowed it.

Did I miss seeing a foul throw?

I assume the ref felt we were taking too long without it being deliberate so felt he had to take action but didn't think it was fair to book for time wasting.

If he felt it was a deliberate time wasting act it probably would've been a yellow rather than us just surrendering the throw.

I think i have seen it before but it very rarely happens as generally teams who aren't looking to waste time don't get into a position where they take too long on throws.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Second half in the same position, Cambridge took just as long but were allowed to keep the throw in. First time I'd seen it switched teams too after taking too long but showed a lack of consistency from the referee.

 

[R Blackid]

I assume the ref felt we were taking too long without it being deliberate so felt he had to take action but didn't think it was fair to book for time wasting.

If he felt it was a deliberate time wasting act it probably would've been a yellow rather than us just surrendering the throw.

I think i have seen it before but it very rarely happens as generally teams who aren't looking to waste time don't get into a position where they take too long on throws.

But then the referee will be making up his own rules. If he thought he was time wasting it should have been a booking and tough shit. I don't think it's in the rules to give a throw to the opposition in this case.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

But then the referee will be making up his own rules. If he thought he was time wasting it should have been a booking and tough shit. I don't think it's in the rules to give a throw to the opposition in this case.

The reason i think he didn't give a yellow was he didn't think it was time wasting.

I believe the rule is you get a yellow card for deliberately time wasting. But if you fail to take the throw correctly without any perceived intent the opposition team gets it without a yellow. But it would make sense if you time wasted on a throw in if the opposition got the ball as well as you receiving the yellow. So it is a bit strange.

 

[Made in Wigan]

The reason i think he didn't give a yellow was he didn't think it was time wasting.

I believe the rule is you get a yellow card for deliberately time wasting. But if you fail to take the throw correctly without any perceived intent the opposition team gets it without a yellow. But it would make sense if you time wasted on a throw in if the opposition got the ball as well as you receiving the yellow. So it is a bit strange.

Just another example of how slow our play is. No urgency whatsoever.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Just another example of how slow our play is. No urgency whatsoever.

We certainly don't seem to work on throw ins in training at all.

 

[AndABusShelter]

We certainly don't seem to work on throw ins in training at all.

We're still better at them than we were under Richardson. Recall that every throw in under him was a guaranteed ball loss.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

It’s the managers instructions that we slow the game down and incessantly pass it sideways and backwards. He’s not yet cottoned onto the fact it doesn’t work when faced with this type of opposition. We aren’t Man City and we haven’t got the quality of player to beat this approach. Yet we adopt it time and time again and get the same result. Ludicrous.

Not really sure that's true MiW. I have seen interviews were Maloney has called for the players to be patient in the build up and retain possession but never seen him call for them to slow the play down.

As I have said in previous posts we seem to have the intensity and purpose in the first few minutes of games, as we did on Monday, only to seem to lose that intensity when we realise that they are not going to venture over the half way line and we will have to battle our way through them.

 

[Made in Wigan]

Not really sure that's true MiW. I have seen interviews were Maloney has called for the players to be patient in the build up and retain possession but never seen him call for them to slow the play down.

As I have said in previous posts we seem to have the intensity and purpose in the first few minutes of games, as we did on Monday, only to seem to lose that intensity when we realise that they are not going to venture over the half way line and we will have to battle our way through them.

Patience itself suggests lack of urgency. It’s why we are so boring to watch. The constant sideways passing to retain possession which is culminating in no end product. It’s absolutely dire. This approach may be acceptable to some Italian team but it’s not what I expect the majority of Wiganers want to watch.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Patience itself suggests lack of urgency. It’s why we are so boring to watch. The constant sideways passing to retain possession which is culminating in no end product. It’s absolutely dire. This approach may be acceptable to some Italian team but it’s not what I expect the majority of Wiganers want to watch.

I agree mate but patience is not an instruction to slow down the play in my book.

I still believe the players we have lack the ability to break down teams that low block and rather than take the chance with a forward pass being intercepted play the sideways/backwards ball.

In my opinion it's a lack of confidence that comes with inexperience, hence my suggestion that we look for experience in the window and not simply youth.