No deal (n/g) | Page 7 | Vital Football

No deal (n/g)

Wayne.Kerr - 16/10/2017 12:34

As I've just pointed out '58, the USA no more interest in us; for Trump, it's keep it in house and fcuk the rest of the world.
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Exactly Wayne, I was being sarcastic.

We can now more easily export cars to St Helena though, can't we.

SurreyBob, your argument is logical (we disagree on whether leaving is worth it). I think you'll find that most leavers would be apoplectic at the thought of paying in and accepting free movement of Labour in return for access to the free market. They think we are going to be better off ffs.
 
Switzerland pays to access the market with rules agreed with the EU through more than 120 separate deals. While it does not have to apply EU laws, crucially it does have to allow free movement of citizens - effectively allowing unlimited migration from the bloc. Switzerland also pumps billions into EU-backed projects. That defeats your argument surely SBob? They're baulking at the idea of the supremacy of the ECJ but, equally, would be in doo doo without accepting the free movement of goods, capital and people as part of the trade deal.
 
But to have that position with the EU, the Swiss have adopted all EU laws and regulations on trade, including standards etc and a customs union as we did; they have adopted EU employment laws probably more than we have as well as complete freedom of movement for EU citizens within the EU rules; they are joined up to the free movement of capital as we are; they have adopted EU VAT rules as we have; they have adopted the waiver of withholding tax on intra-EU dividend payments as we have along with many others outside the EU; they have adopted air transport agreements; as I mentioned they have concluded over a hundred such agreements. The populations of Switzerland and Norway are 8.5m and 5.2m respectively, which puts a completely different slant on the way they look at the EU. Norway has an abundance of oil but precious little else and needs to import a huge portion of its goods and consumables; so, the EU makes perfect sense to them. The same to a large extent applies to Switzerland; they make chocolate, cheese and watches and not much more; so, need they EU but don't want to join fully or they'd lose the opportunity to offer very low corporate tax rates [not allowed under EU tax harmonisation arrangements] that makes the country so attractive to the outside world and, of course, supports their position of neutrality. When you look at Switzerland and Norway and try and compare them with the UK you're not comparing apples with apples. You really need to look deeper before saying we could do the same and I haven't Googled anything.
 
Wayne.Kerr - 16/10/2017 15:10
they make chocolate, cheese and watches and not much more
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That's not quite true: Switzerland's got a surprisingly big manufacturing sector - chemicals and high-tech engineering, for example. Other than that your point stands. It's also why they're in the Schengen area, because of the tens of thousands of people who cross the border every day from France and Germany to work there.
 
I stand corrected as I was involved with the pharma business in and around Berne and should've remembered; plus of course the Schengen deal, which we are not part of.
 
My concern about leaving is the economy. I actually agree with the sovereignty argument. But who will suffer if the economy is damaged? Who has already been worst hit by austerity? I am not interested in lining the pockets of bankers and big business who may want to stay in for their own benefit, BUT I am a tory in do far as you can only distribute the wealth that you CREATE (or the next generation pays for it, as we are now seeing). So national pride should be put to one side for the sake of the weak, vulnerable and less well off in society and we should ensure the best trading partnership we can and even, if it comes to it, the Commons should consider voting down a no deal. If they did, maybe then would be the right time for a second referendum!
 
One of the rare times I agree with everything a Tory says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XPcue_D2f8

Particularly noted the comment about us currently being the EU's biggest export market.

On another Sunday Morning programme (Sunday Politics) was the leader of the CBI from 2012-2016 who is now one of the heads of the Leave Means Leave movement. He actually said that if the EU had not agreed to move on to trade talks by the end of November we should just leave, deal or no deal.

 
Same bloke let slip that we could cut down on regulations so goodbye workers rights and "Elf'n saftee" that people don't seem to want - until they die as in Grenfell Tower of course.

Easy for the Executive to do with the Henry V111th powers that they've got that 99.9% of the population don't understand. They voted for Parliamentary Sovereignty and have just had all the powers passed to the Executive. Another reason why the referendum was a bad idea but the public don't know it (don't blame them as it's specialised and complicated).

Not sure he was the CBI leader though, I think it was another organisation that sacked him as the majority disagreed with his Leave stance - I stand to be corrected.
 
Straightbat - 16/10/2017 14:35

My concern about leaving is the economy. I actually agree with the sovereignty argument. But who will suffer if the economy is damaged? Who has already been worst hit by austerity? I am not interested in lining the pockets of bankers and big business who may want to stay in for their own benefit, BUT I am a tory in do far as you can only distribute the wealth that you CREATE (or the next generation pays for it, as we are now seeing). So national pride should be put to one side for the sake of the weak, vulnerable and less well off in society and we should ensure the best trading partnership we can and even, if it comes to it, the Commons should consider voting down a no deal. If they did, maybe then would be the right time for a second referendum!
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I agree with that straightbat and what you say re creating and distributing wealth does not make you a Tory.

I'm against free movement of Labour when there are vastly differing economies and there is a minor loss of sovereignty (nowhere near as much as is claimed by Leavers). The EU economic policy of austerity is too right wing for me. In spite of all that we are even worse off out than in, hence I voted Remain.

If we have a hard Brexit I'm convinced the economy will take a bit hit. I'm OK but I fear for my kid's future and their generation.
 
Gills1958 - 16/10/2017 16:02

Not sure he was the CBI leader though, I think it was another organisation that sacked him as the majority disagreed with his Leave stance - I stand to be corrected.
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No, apologies - you are right Gills58. I am the one that stands corrected. The info you gave identified him as this guy so I should have said British Chambers of Commerce:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/06/john-longworth-resigns-as-commerce-boss-over-brexit
 
Farage will not like this; the new Austrian Chancellor is very pro EU. He will not like that at all because the young lad had broken ranks.
 
Nobody should be under any illusions that in the short / near term the economy and general business sentiment will be impacted by the vote to leave.

I personally detest the ever increasing power base that the EU bureaucrats are pushing for. I don't believe its healthy or in the best interest of the general European. The mentality displayed by various EU council members towards the UK as a result of the vote, I believe is symptomatic of a power hungry social elite who's agenda seems to be very much protectionist ... at all costs.

Logic would assert that the individual countries of Europe will want to foster good trading relations with the UK... but the EU wants to protect itself and if that means hardship in countries across Europe ... well that will be the cost. The UK is not negotiating with a body that will directly be affected by the end-game of BREXIT, it will be the people within each of the 'lesser' countries that will suffer. The EU will go on paying lavish salaries and expenses, go on purchasing fine art, wine and property all over the Europe with funds gleaned from its members.

This same mentality also manifested itself within the troubles faced by the Greek economy. Greece should never have been allowed to join the EU, how much of that is the Greek Governments fault and how much the EU is up for debate. One thing is for sure, the Greek people are not a priority for the EU; sure, increasing the finance available seems like a good thing ... but its just further hamstringing the long term chances of their economy ever recovering.

I voted Leave, because I dont believe in a body of such power and control, that is not directly accountable to the people. Many countries within the EU, like Greece owe Germany significant amounts of money ... the imbalance across European economies is frightening.

I fundamentally dont believe the EU as is, represents a healthy democracy; as a result, many 'lesser' member states will in the long term restrict their ability to flourish ... all the while paying Germany interest and funding the lavish social elites of the EU bureaucracy.

I would love to be proved wrong, I really would ... because if this is in any way a sign of the future ... it can only mean significant hardship for people across Europe and most probably large conflicts if not war....

What price to have some real leadership within the UK team right now, a Churchill, Thatcher, Lincoln ...


 
'I voted Leave, because I dont believe in a body of such power and control, that is not directly accountable to the people.'

I'm really worried about Google, Amazon and Facebook controlling us, too.
 
Sensible post Strood, but unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears on this site. You will no doubt be told to "get with the programme".
 
Strood, I voted to remain, that said I except the vote and believe we will get through this with or without the help of Europe.
A good post and what you say makes a lot of sense.
 
Strood, you are confusing the EU with the Eurozone. Greece's problem is not its membership of the EU, it was its adoption if the euro. It's an arguable point as to whether it might have been in just as much trouble with the drachma. As a result of being in the Euro, it turned to the European Bank for assistance and the funding for its bail out came largely from Germany amongst the Eurozone states. People might not like the terms imposed and I would be one of those, but it's daft to think of this as a direct EU issue. Of course, in the end, the problems came from a collapse in confidence following the banking crisis rather than any inherent EU issue.

Also, what a weird idea you have as to what goes on in the EU when you talk about lavish lifestyles etc. You are talking about an overall bureaucracy that employs roughly the same as the City of Birmingham. Their pay rates are virtually the same as those in the British Civil Service. If you're not talking about the bureaucrats you must be talking about the politicians who are either individual politicians from each if the respective member states or who hold positions in the EU because they have been selected by the 28 member states. I simply don't recognise the image.

If you wanted true democracy you would believe in a United States of Europe. Only then would it be sensible to have a complete democracy across all issues. As it stands there is a compromise. The 28 states set the general direction through the Council of Ministers. That's just the same as the general direction being set in this country by the Cabinet. Laws are then passed or not through their passage through the European Parliament. So there are elements of direct voting. That's no different from our national system and similar to that operating in most democracies.

The biggest issue I have is the way in which we are withdrawing from the decision making process in Europe. Amongst those with dealings with the EU, there is a general consensus that nothing of significance has been taken forward in the EU over the last 40 years that has not had the approval of the three largest players, the U.K., Germany and France. Now those decisions will be taken by France and Germany alone which is fine if you believe that nothing that happens in mainland Europe has any impact on the UK. 20th century history says otherwise.
 
LSB2 - 16/10/2017 07:43

Well, Brexit meant I keep my job until at least 2024, so it's not all doom and gloom... :-)
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Haha! Do you work in the civil service? Probably take that long to negotiate any kind of deal!
 
SurreyBOB - 16/10/2017 12:36

Gills1958 - 16/10/2017 09:08

SurreyBob was saying how well Switzerland was doing outside the EU but they pay in and have had to accept free movement of Labour, ditto Norway. Is that what Brexiteers want?
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I wouldn't be averse to the UK making contributions as Switzerland does to benefit from certain bilateral agreements as long as we regain the supremacy of the UK Parliament over our own legislative matters and we are free of EU treaty obligations and ECJ rulings which automatically overrule UK law and go the heart of our constitution. That is my "red line".

The big Remain lie was that if you are not fully in the EU you are automatically and totally economically ****ed. The case of Switzerland (and Liechtenstein) prove that this is demonstrably not the case. That is what they have to sort out during the negotiations.

I don't object to being part of a mutually beneficial economic area but I do object to being part of a political area that is slowly grabbing constitutional power over its member states by stealth.
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I do understand Leaver?s concern about losing control. But the fact is that in a global economy, more and more coordination is needed to face global challenges.

For instance, I?m sure that most Leavers would argue against the likes of Google and Amazon moving their profits to low cost jurisdictions. The reason why we?ve been so shit at addressing the issue is because we don?t coordinate enough. If taxes were harmonised across the whole of EU then there would be no financial benefit of locating in Ireland.

It?s also a fallacy that leaving the EU means that we can make all our own laws. Fact is our products will need to comply with EU standards if we wish to export there. So we?ll end up adopting most of their law if we have any intention of trading with the EU.


 
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