GFC to take part in tokenism | Vital Football

GFC to take part in tokenism

wxgill

wxgill

Vital 1st Team Regular
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11694/11057413/birmingham-oldham-gillingham-and-chesterfield-implement-rooney-rule-in-manager-search

Give people interviews based on if you think they would be good for the club - not their colour.

 
"Tokensism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to do a particular thing, especially by recruiting a small number of people from under-represented groups in order to give the appearance of sexual or racial equality within a workforce."

Seeing as we have black players on our books, who are there on merit, and the Rooney Rule has set out to make a positive difference, then it's hardly tokenism is it?
 
I knew I was not feeling well this week as I find myself agreeing with WK.

Amongst those rumoured to be interested in the job is Chris Powell who would be a good choice. Although it is not a reason to employ him it would not do any harm either to our somewhat tarnished image at the moment.
 
"A third of all players who started on the opening day of the Premier League season were from BAME backgrounds, but there are just three BAME managers"

And the overwhelming majority of those BAME players are foreign nationals who will hang around for a few years picking up a sizable salary before going back to wherever they came from... Most of those players who decide to go into management do so in countries where they share a closer culture.

For a country of whom only 2% -10%** of the population identify as BAME according to the last census, is 33% really the target being used to represent equal representation?



** 2% is the figure for Black British, while the higher figure of 10% includes other non-white minorities...
 
Wayne.Kerr - 28/9/2017 15:59

"Tokensism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to do a particular thing, especially by recruiting a small number of people from under-represented groups in order to give the appearance of sexual or racial equality within a workforce."

Seeing as we have black players on our books, who are there on merit, and the Rooney Rule has set out to make a positive difference, then it's hardly tokenism is it?
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The Rooney Rule relates to coaching staff and manager roles and not players... :83:

Basically, every time we have a manager vacancy, we'll interview John Barnes or Carlton Palmer just to claim we interviewed a black person. Of course, this doesn't mean every black person interviewed is the result of tokenism - I think most people would agree that managers like Powell and Hassenbank would be interviewed based upon their manager record.
 
I know what the Rooney Rule refers to and I was making the point about black players in order to demonstrate that we wouldn't be engaging in tokenism. You may be confused but I am not; I'm fully aware of what Wayne Rooney had in mind.
 
Wayne.Kerr - 28/9/2017 16:52

I know what the Rooney Rule refers to and I was making the point about black players in order to demonstrate that we wouldn't be engaging in tokenism. You may be confused but I am not; I'm fully aware of what Wayne Rooney had in mind.
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Erm... I'm pretty certain Wayne Rooney had nothing to do with it (nor did Luke Rooney before you comment)...

The Wayne Rooney rule is where you look good in the easier (pre-tournament) matches but then flatter to deceive when the serious part starts. The Wayne Rooney rule is something completely different to the Rooney rule... :15:
 
John_Knee - 28/9/2017 16:31

"A third of all players who started on the opening day of the Premier League season were from BAME backgrounds, but there are just three BAME managers"

And the overwhelming majority of those BAME players are foreign nationals who will hang around for a few years picking up a sizable salary before going back to wherever they came from... Most of those players who decide to go into management do so in countries where they share a closer culture.

For a country of whom only 2% -10%** of the population identify as BAME according to the last census, is 33% really the target being used to represent equal representation?



** 2% is the figure for Black British, while the higher figure of 10% includes other non-white minorities...
Click to expand...



2%-10% of the UK population is irrelevant, the question is what percentage of British based professional players are of a BAME descent. Though I have no stats, I'd wager it's a lot higher than the proportion in the public in general.

Personally, I'm not keen on tokenism, but what harm can it honestly do when it's an interview only, aside from waste some time?

You draft a shortlist of who you want to speak to, and if there isn't anyone that meets the criteria there (I'd be astonished if that was the case btw) then you interview someone for the sake of it.
 
MedwayModernist - 28/9/2017 18:09

2%-10% of the UK population is irrelevant, the question is what percentage of British based professional players are of a BAME descent. Though I have no stats, I'd wager it's a lot higher than the proportion in the public in general.

Personally, I'm not keen on tokenism, but what harm can it honestly do when it's an interview only, aside from waste some time?

You draft a shortlist of who you want to speak to, and if there isn't anyone that meets the criteria there (I'd be astonished if that was the case btw) then you interview someone for the sake of it.
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The article said a third of players are BAME - does this mean 30 managers need to be black** in order for the leagues to be diversity representative?? If so, considering the smaller % of black players who have ties here, how would you force foreign black people to stay here to take the roles??

I'm not convinced any of the chairman who has signed up for this would refuse to hire a person on the basis of skin colour. If no black manager of note applies and the chairman knows on the basis of the applicant's CV they fall short, it is a complete waste of time interviewing the person. I'm sure the applicant would be insulted to know they are attending an interview they won't get in the first place.

One thing I am curious about but there are no stats, is what percentage of genuine applicants are white, black, other etc (by genuine I mean those with actual experience and not a history of playing football manager). On Talk Sport a few years ago when this was discussed, there were a few calls from coaches who said the higher the grade they were studying the less black people were on the courses.






** i kept writing black but I'm using it as a catch all for all BAME.
 
I'm happy for Chris Powell to get the job as

1. he has a good track record
2. he is a free agent so wont cost the club anything.

With regard to the tokenism/pc brigade i have always believed the best person should get the job - regardless of the colour / creed / religious beliefs etc.

Out of interest in the real world if you do not get a job you can ask questions but i'm sure that happens in the football world.
 
I can't help but think many BAME people could get offended by this policy. Might they not think that "I only got the interview because I am black"?

I remember Mike Fuller being interviewed on Radio 5 live when he became the first Black Chief Constable in the country after going to Kent from The Met. Nikki Campbell had just made about five references to positive discrimination within the police when Fuller got quite curt with him as he was sounding like he had only been promoted to make up quotas. He asked "Don't you think it possible that I got the job because I was the most suitable candidate?" Fair question and one that a lot of Black managers will ask if they are a product of this policy
 
BAME are over represented everywhere. If they were represented proportionately , it would seem a lot fairer. As it stands , there are folk who feel that this might be a deliberate policy to force multicultural acceptance.

Its social engineering.
 
MM well said.

JK just doesn't understand context so I'll give that a miss because he can't help it and as for VG well he's just a troll.

What are white men afraid of? A bit of competition?

I'd be interested in the proportion of black British ex players that get management jobs compared to their % representation.

BTW I don't expect the average chairman thinks "I will not employ a black manager". Racism is more subtle than that. I like to think I'm not racist but I suspect that subliminarly I still am a bit, tbh.
 
Gills1958 - 28/9/2017 22:20

What are white men afraid of? A bit of competition?

I'd be interested in the proportion of black British ex players that get management jobs compared to their % representation.

.
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I don't think any white men are scared of competition providing it is done fairly on the basis of skills without identity factors like race or gender being one of the qualifying factors.

In terms of the second paragraph, it is only useful if you know how many white people who applied in relation to non-white people. If the number of non-white people who apply is under the national average then that could be a part explaination. Unfortunately there are no stats on this.

Could I ask a question: out of 92 league clubs, how many of those clubs need to give a black person before the leagues could claim to be racially diverse?
 
VG: seeing as black people have suffered abhorrent slavery, later segregation while to-day discrimination exists in so many walks of life, then a bit of positive discrimination will go a little way to putting right some of those awful wrongs.

When you visit war graves, is it the graves of Germans and their allies you seek? I ask because you express none of the sentiments that would support why British and Commonwealth forces and their allies gave their lives fighting the evil that was fascism and its hatred of multiculturalism, freedom of speech and thought, which strangely enough are the views you espouse.
 
I disagree , positive discrimination can never be a good thing. It is discriminatory to misrepresent the demographics of a country. People in the West have woken up to the fact that the multicultural eutopia doesnt exist. Hence Brexit , Trump etc.

Lets not forget the AFD in Germany.
 
freedom of speech and thought ? I thought you were reporting me for that ?

Whatever happened to that rather pathetic threat ?
 
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