Creativity problem - work harder says Nuno!? | Page 2 | Vital Football

Creativity problem - work harder says Nuno!?

Barnsleyspur said:
Our identity the season Leicester won it, and arguably the year we played best, was when when we had young, energetic players pressing all over the pitch.

Somewhere along the line, poch lost that and we never regained. I don't understand why because the results and style ticked all boxes. I know players age out but if the don't suit the style, you sell them surely?

If we finish top 6, I feel it will be a success. This squad is really quite poor. We saw warning signs v wolves and palace cashed in.

We have to stop with this negative style of football. And dele cannot play cm again. Try him up top and drop kane. Just something...
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It may be an option, but Alli is a lightweight, with appalling ball retention, not great at shooting and cannot dribble. He might give us better mobility but little else.
 
Critical_Spur said:
No doubt you will have seen the movement of the rest of the Argentine team. There are always options for a pass whilst our statues want pin point passes at their feet only to ping it back to the passer in a crowded area!.
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But is that because Gio (and Paredes) know that when you're playing with Messi, Martinez, Aguero, Icardi, Di Maria etc you are the water carrier? You know your team depends on you to protect the defence and feed the midfield.

In a Spurs shirt, when I see Gio ahead of play and our defence under pressure, it frustrates me. I know he has more about him than that. I think he could be like Eriksen and Dele were when it came to protecting Wanyama and Dembele. All hands to the pump and all that.
 
Matic said:
Creativity is a funny issue in football. We get the idea in our heads that creativity = players like Eriksen, Iniesta, de Bruyne etc. 'Land a pass on a penny' players. When really, creativity is just any form of action that creates a chance. Two seasons ago the PL had Alexander-Arnold as one of the top assisters and his success was down to your typical actions from a wingback - crosses, long balls, cut backs. If he hadnt had the likes of Mane, Firmino and Salah making amazing runs and constantly stretching defenders, would he have had the same stats?

I look in our squad and see creativity. Reggie has shown his crossing can be astonishingly good, Bergwijn, Dele and Ndombele have great vision and can feed players in behind the defensive line very well. Lucas, Ndombele and Gil and excellent at running at players and not only finding more space for themselves but also drag more players in towards them, creating space for their teammates. And then we have Kane who can hit those 'on a penny' passes when he drops deeper.

The off-the-ball movement is the big problem for me, on top of how gutless our CM's can be in avoiding the harder pass (as shown against Palace) and also the tempo. If we sort out those 3 issues I think we will see way more chances created and we may even start to see players like Bergwijn and Dele find their confidence that gives them an edge.
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Crossing, passing are basics in my view; they come from having the right technical grounding. Even movement and working hard off the ball can be described as such i.e. finding pockets of space; running away from play so as to stretch defenders and force them to make a decision - afraid for me whilst there is an element of creativity, it's not what I was focused on - yes you can improve all these things on the training pitch - at least to an extent.

The creativity we still lack (without N'dombele, Gil or Dele back to his best) is stark and in our face i.e. lacking in the ability to simply push and run past a player although Son can do this, he's doing less and less of it, Kane's ability to do so seems to have virtually deserted him.

Bergwijn can do it at times, but his end product is poor, same for Moura - moreoften than not. I'm looking for;

  • originality, individuality and showing off 'unusual' skills
  • being imaginative, and taking risks
  • looking beyond the obvious and trying the more difficult passes/through balls
  • Coming up with set ball routines doing that we haven't done before
  • varying things that have been done before
  • getting our wingbacks to push up and make the press and the overlap and going to the bye line, then crossing
All of the above is what we're really lacking without a system that includes the players I've highlighted, all the above gives the opposition defense problems; in fairness, we're dropping too deep again and that makes a press almost impossible and the midfielders job nigh on impossible unless you once again revert to defending at your 18-yard box and playing on the counter. - And that is supposedly what Nuno was going to change, and that comes from his set-up and tactics first and foremost.

Tactically, you have to be creative to give the opposition problems and to craft opportunities - so far in our first 4 games, I've seen little to not much of this tactical approach or expression in the players.

So it's so much much more than teaching/practicing basic movement and fluidity.

That is what we have to change, or this season will be a huge struggle again.
 
So Nuno has a fully fit squad and everyone firing. Would we be having this conversation?

It seemed to me that what Harry did best is trust his players to figure things out on the pitch. He let the football brains of those players be an extension of himself.

After the AVB / Sherwood mess, what Poch did was rotate to a little more organised team in a high press, but still fully leveraged those football brains of his key men. It was the 3 in the 4-2-3-1 that made it work.

Jose then put everyone into zones and turned them into robots, with the exception of one....Kane. He was allowed to be the creative lynchpin.

Mason tried to unshackle that in 6 games and got somewhere. The undoing of Leicester in the last game of the season was exactly that, and had been weeks and weeks of work and shifting a player mindset.

I have a feeling Nuno knows what he needs to do but is going to need a full compliment of players firing to do it. He will know it's a lost opportunity if he can't leverage the football brains and abilities of Kane, Son, Dele, Tanguy, Gio, Gil etc together.
 
muttley said:
So Nuno has a fully fit squad and everyone firing. Would we be having this conversation?

It seemed to me that what Harry did best is trust his players to figure things out on the pitch. He let the football brains of those players be an extension of himself.

After the AVB / Sherwood mess, what Poch did was rotate to a little more organised team in a high press, but still fully leveraged those football brains of his key men. It was the 3 in the 4-2-3-1 that made it work.

Jose then put everyone into zones and turned them into robots, with the exception of one....Kane. He was allowed to be the creative lynchpin.

Mason tried to unshackle that in 6 games and got somewhere. The undoing of Leicester in the last game of the season was exactly that, and had been weeks and weeks of work and shifting a player mindset.

I have a feeling Nuno knows what he needs to do but is going to need a full compliment of players firing to do it. He will know it's a lost opportunity if he can't leverage the football brains and abilities of Kane, Son, Dele, Tanguy, Gio, Gil etc together.
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He better know it, or both he and we will sink like a stone.
 
muttley said:
But is that because Gio (and Paredes) know that when you're playing with Messi, Martinez, Aguero, Icardi, Di Maria etc you are the water carrier? You know your team depends on you to protect the defence and feed the midfield.

In a Spurs shirt, when I see Gio ahead of play and our defence under pressure, it frustrates me. I know he has more about him than that. I think he could be like Eriksen and Dele were when it came to protecting Wanyama and Dembele. All hands to the pump and all that.
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It's interesting because the season before we signed him he scored 16 goals for Real Betis which I presume was the main reason we signed him. I only really saw goal highlights of that season but he appeared to be playing a more advanced role than his one for Spurs and Argentina.

He's never really struck me as central midfield player so maybe to see the best of him we need to push him further forward?
 
What are the reasons we can't be creative now though? I'm trying to figure out who thinks the tactics are the problem, who thinks the players are the problem or who thinks the training could be a problem. Or even who thinks it is a bit of everything.
 
Matic said:
What are the reasons we can't be creative now though? I'm trying to figure out who thinks the tactics are the problem, who thinks the players are the problem or who thinks the training could be a problem. Or even who thinks it is a bit of everything.
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Unbalanced team. But also three supposedly creative players that are currently not delivering for various reasons.

Ndombele winning the ball and passing forward would solve some of the problem. Especially balanced with Skipp.
 
Matic said:
What are the reasons we can't be creative now though? I'm trying to figure out who thinks the tactics are the problem, who thinks the players are the problem or who thinks the training could be a problem. Or even who thinks it is a bit of everything.
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Am thinking its a bit of everything, but add Fear! of making a mistake!
 
Matic said:
What are the reasons we can't be creative now though? I'm trying to figure out who thinks the tactics are the problem, who thinks the players are the problem or who thinks the training could be a problem. Or even who thinks it is a bit of everything.
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I'll state the obvious answer here. As the cliche goes, working harder?...no!... Work Smarter!.

I was watching the pool game last night. Salah was constantly on the move and the midfielders were looking out for him. As soon as he moved in to a pocket of space, the ball was pinged to him and he knew the space around him and his first instinct was to turnaround and move forward. I guarantee it, our guys barely make it in reachable pocket and they often ping it back to the passer. I'd rather they made mistakes trying to be adventurous and expressive than robots.
 
Matic said:
What are the reasons we can't be creative now though? I'm trying to figure out who thinks the tactics are the problem, who thinks the players are the problem or who thinks the training could be a problem. Or even who thinks it is a bit of everything.
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For me it's entirely down to the fact that the players we spent heavily on to provide the creativity, have failed. Whilst Nuno obviously has a tendency toward conservative set ups, Ndombele and Lo Celso should by now have made themselves automatic selections, whereby the manager should be able to undertake his team selection and setup with far more confidence than is clearly the case.
 
Critical_Spur said:
I'll state the obvious answer here. As the cliche goes, working harder?...no!... Work Smarter!.

I was watching the pool game last night. Salah was constantly on the move and the midfielders were looking out for him. As soon as he moved in to a pocket of space, the ball was pinged to him and he knew the space around him and his first instinct was to turnaround and move forward. I guarantee it, our guys barely make it in reachable pocket and they often ping it back to the passer. I'd rather they made mistakes trying to be adventurous and expressive than robots.
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Yep CS its the fear of making mistakes, as you I would rather a mistake made by at least trying the option.
 
Pompey Yid said:
Yep CS its the fear of making mistakes, as you I would rather a mistake made by at least trying the option.
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Absolutely PY. I truly enjoyed the 1st leg v Pacos, seeing Gil with his 'European' style movement, constantly wanting the ball and trying to do something with it. He was connecting with others around him. Like Xavusch said during the game, it was fun! Seems bloody eons since we last experienced some fun!
 
Barnsleyspur said:
Our identity the season Leicester won it, and arguably the year we played best, was when when we had young, energetic players pressing all over the pitch.

Somewhere along the line, poch lost that and we never regained. I don't understand why because the results and style ticked all boxes. I know players age out but if the don't suit the style, you sell them surely?

If we finish top 6, I feel it will be a success. This squad is really quite poor. We saw warning signs v wolves and palace cashed in.

We have to stop with this negative style of football. And dele cannot play cm again. Try him up top and drop kane. Just something...
Click to expand...

The funny thing is our really isn't 'quite poor', we're just made to believe it is because of how poor we've been performing over the last 2-3 years.

We've actually got a really good squad with 5-6 very good players.

Something is clearly missing though because there's plenty of teams with much worse squads that are playing much better.
 
SmithAndJones said:
For me it's entirely down to the fact that the players we spent heavily on to provide the creativity, have failed. Whilst Nuno obviously has a tendency toward conservative set ups, Ndombele and Lo Celso should by now have made themselves automatic selections, whereby the manager should be able to undertake his team selection and setup with far more confidence than is clearly the case.
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I don't know how you emphasize these two and not mention the common denominator Alli, who arrived before and has been underperforming for longer. Another example of our club being unreactive while hanging on to a player who isn't good enough. Will we ever learn.
 
Needing a player who can pull a worldly pass out of the bag for creativity just covers up players who are not willing to get on the ball in forward areas, and not willing to run off the ball to create space to make passing easier. In the early Poch years we had all of the above. Then in the latter years the movement stopped and it hasn't got going since.
 
RichmondSpur said:
I don't know how you emphasize these two and not mention the common denominator Alli, who arrived before and has been underperforming for longer. Another example of our club being unreactive while hanging on to a player who isn't good enough. Will we ever learn.
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You miss my point which was that both Ndombele and Lo Celso are high priced midfield signings who have failed to establish themselves, and provide what is necessary. If they had it is questionable if Dele would be in the team.
 
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