Cook out or keep faith

[HudWiganFan]

I've not changed my vote, still down as keeping him, but my hand is hovering over the ejector seat button pending the Bolton game just, as I suspect, is Melvin's hand.

I’m not sure even a draw would be enough to ensure Cook’s safety at the weekend - it truly is must win I think.

Our home performances have been lacklustre for a while now, so there’ll have to be a stark improvement otherwise it’ll be curtains.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Even if we scarped a 1-0 win i'd still sack him after the Bolton game at this point.

Even if we somehow beat Bolton there is no way we can bank on even turning up for the following 8 games let alone win another 2 or 3 under him. I'd almost certainly be replacing him in the international break as even if we got another Villa like performance and result it will just be another good blip and we'll be back to being crap next game.

He better drop Evans, Olsson and Robinson too and i don't even want to see Clarke and Gibson polluting the bench. For all their faults Pilkington, Naismith, Kipre are miles better and give MacDonald and Devante Cole a chance to at least be in a match day squad!

 

[Roy Race]

I think, no matter whether you want Cook out or want him to stay or if you're undecided and no matter how shit things may be at the minute, no matter how much you might feel certain players are useless, one thing is for certain we all need to get behind them on Saturday and create a bit of atmosphere from the off.

It's been understandably flat (almost non-existent) recently and ,who knows, it might just give the players a bit of a lift. It might not do anything and we might be losing after 20 minutes and it might turn nasty but at least let's give it a go.

 

[Roy Race]

Even if we scarped a 1-0 win i'd still sack him after the Bolton game at this point.

Even if we somehow beat Bolton there is no way we can bank on even turning up for the following 8 games let alone win another 2 or 3 under him. I'd almost certainly be replacing him in the international break as even if we got another Villa like performance and result it will just be another good blip and we'll be back to being crap next game.

He better drop Evans, Olsson and Robinson too and i don't even want to see Clarke and Gibson polluting the bench. For all their faults Pilkington, Naismith, Kipre are miles better and give MacDonald and Devante Cole a chance to at least be in a match day squad!

Arguably though King we only need a couple 'good blips' and we'll be safe. So if we do have a 'good blip on Saturday what's the point of getting rid?

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Arguably though King we only need a couple 'good blips' and we'll be safe. So if we do have a 'good blip on Saturday what's the point of getting rid?

You are right but since Bristol at home in September (our 10th game) we have 4 wins / good blips in 29 games. That averages out at 1 good blip every 7 games or so and we only have 9 games left. Every time we have a good performance and win normal service is resumed immedietely after so why pretend this time would be turning the corner when we've had so many false dawns.

We probably need 3 wins in the next 9 to keep us up for certain, if we did that it would be 1 short of what we did in the previous 6 months combined and considering we couldn't get that in the easy run we just had i can't see how we will do it with the harder games we have coming up - it's just not going to happen without major change.

 

[OnLoanfromEnfield]

Not that it matters... but my vote for Paul Cook to stay remains.
Nothing to do with the FA Cup run last season or winning League 1.

I feel he can be a decent manager in the Championship ,for us, in time.

There is still time to move away from the current gaffe crazy football and show some real fight
He and his team have to get the players performing for the last few games.
Plus I also still think we will not be relegated.

(No alcohol or substances consumed prior to this post).

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Even if we scarped a 1-0 win i'd still sack him after the Bolton game at this point.

Even if we somehow beat Bolton there is no way we can bank on even turning up for the following 8 games let alone win another 2 or 3 under him. I'd almost certainly be replacing him in the international break as even if we got another Villa like performance and result it will just be another good blip and we'll be back to being crap next game.

He better drop Evans, Olsson and Robinson too and i don't even want to see Clarke and Gibson polluting the bench. For all their faults Pilkington, Naismith, Kipre are miles better and give MacDonald and Devante Cole a chance to at least be in a match day squad!

Once again I will make the same point, the results last night have left us no better or no worse off than we were before kick off. If the games tonight go the same way then the status quo has been kept.

You are saying we need to win another 2-3 games, but surely this is dependant on how other results go. If we equal or better the results of three teams below us we will survive and that is the only certainty. We may or may not do this but given the performance of the teams below us over the season there is more chance of that happening than not. I know this is not what we would choose and we would all like to see us safe sooner rather than later, but I will take safety whichever way it comes and I believe PC still gives us the best option.

Swapping and changing players is a desperation response. Callum Mac was brought on last night and despite being much called for by many on here failed to have any serious impact. There was a distinct upturn in the performance on Saturday and other than the injury/illness to Byrne I suspect we would have kept the same team. I cannot see how any blame can be attached to the manager for at least two of the goals last night. Did he instruct James to kick their player, did he tell Dunckley to completely misread a hopeful long ball, I think not. It is easy to blame the manager for the performance but last nights defeat was down to the players and no one else.

I still stand by my vote that Cook should stay and finish the job he started.

 

[Made in Wigan]

Once again I will make the same point, the results last night have left us no better or no worse off than we were before kick off. If the games tonight go the same way then the status quo has been kept.

You are saying we need to win another 2-3 games, but surely this is dependant on how other results go. If we equal or better the results of three teams below us we will survive and that is the only certainty. We may or may not do this but given the performance of the teams below us over the season there is more chance of that happening than not. I know this is not what we would choose and we would all like to see us safe sooner rather than later, but I will take safety whichever way it comes and I believe PC still gives us the best option.

Swapping and changing players is a desperation response. Callum Mac was brought on last night and despite being much called for by many on here failed to have any serious impact. There was a distinct upturn in the performance on Saturday and other than the injury/illness to Byrne I suspect we would have kept the same team. I cannot see how any blame can be attached to the manager for at least two of the goals last night. Did he instruct James to kick their player, did he tell Dunckley to completely misread a hopeful long ball, I think not. It is easy to blame the manager for the performance but last nights defeat was down to the players and no one else.

I still stand by my vote that Cook should stay and finish the job he started.

To lay the blame solely at the door of the players is ludicrous - though they were shite and gave in. We couldn't put any pressure on a makeshift defence and were like a hookers legs at the back. There clearly was no motivation and I've no idea what the game plan was, in fact given his comments about tactics I wonder if there was one.

You can't base retaining a manager on the premise there are three worse teams than us. It's a ludicrous justification. For what it's worth I believe there are 3 worst teams than us, in fact I think there are 5 worst teams than us and I genuinely wouldn't swap our first 11 or indeed squad for any of theirs. However given our manager doesn't appear to know his arse from his elbow at present it doesn't necessarily mean we'll stay up.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

That's my opinion MiW and yours is different. I didn't see PC kick their player in the box or let the ball go over him for their second goal, however I saw two horrendous mistakes by players picked by him. Players that have been praised by you and others on here over the season. Other than the three goals conceded Blackburn had little else to offer, we gave them the goals due to the poor play by the eleven players we had on the pitch. I cant lay this defeat at PC's door it was down to the players who let him and us down last night. Their poor play was punished.

As for my reasons for retaining the current manager I have given details of my reasons in the other thread. I am not solely basing my reasons on the fact that there are worse teams than us. My main reason is economics, as I believe that changing the manager now would cost us far more than the 500k that you suggest on the other thread. Money we will need to rebuild next season. You and others are basing your reasoning on the new manager bounce that may or may not happen. The economic difference between the income from TV in the Championship and League one is about 5 million, it could cost us as much as 3 million to enable the change you suggest, therefore in my eyes we could stand to gain 2 million or lose 3 million. If I were a betting man I think the odds are not worth it.

 

[Made in Wigan]

That's my opinion MiW and yours is different. I didn't see PC kick their player in the box or let the ball go over him for their second goal, however I saw two horrendous mistakes by players picked by him. Players that have been praised by you and others on here over the season. Other than the three goals conceded Blackburn had little else to offer, we gave them the goals due to the poor play by the eleven players we had on the pitch. I cant lay this defeat at PC's door it was down to the players who let him and us down last night. Their poor play was punished.

As for my reasons for retaining the current manager I have given details of my reasons in the other thread. I am not solely basing my reasons on the fact that there are worse teams than us. My main reason is economics, as I believe that changing the manager now would cost us far more than the 500k that you suggest on the other thread. Money we will need to rebuild next season. You and others are basing your reasoning on the new manager bounce that may or may not happen. The economic difference between the income from TV in the Championship and League one is about 5 million, it could cost us as much as 3 million to enable the change you suggest, therefore in my eyes we could stand to gain 2 million or lose 3 million. If I were a betting man I think the odds are not worth it.

So you want to retain him for economic reasons not ability reasons? That's hardly a ringing endorsement of his credentials.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Once again I will make the same point, the results last night have left us no better or no worse off than we were before kick off. If the games tonight go the same way then the status quo has been kept.

You are saying we need to win another 2-3 games, but surely this is dependant on how other results go. If we equal or better the results of three teams below us we will survive and that is the only certainty. We may or may not do this but given the performance of the teams below us over the season there is more chance of that happening than not. I know this is not what we would choose and we would all like to see us safe sooner rather than later, but I will take safety whichever way it comes and I believe PC still gives us the best option.

Swapping and changing players is a desperation response. Callum Mac was brought on last night and despite being much called for by many on here failed to have any serious impact. There was a distinct upturn in the performance on Saturday and other than the injury/illness to Byrne I suspect we would have kept the same team. I cannot see how any blame can be attached to the manager for at least two of the goals last night. Did he instruct James to kick their player, did he tell Dunckley to completely misread a hopeful long ball, I think not. It is easy to blame the manager for the performance but last nights defeat was down to the players and no one else.

I still stand by my vote that Cook should stay and finish the job he started.

I understand your argument but I don't think it's prudent to pretty much hope the others do worse than us, i don't think surviving by default is something we can rely on and therefore should try and do whatever it takes to ensure we get the 3 wins or so to stay up - they aren't coming under Cook by the looks of it. Like i said earlier in the thread come the last day of the season i don't want to be sitting there relegated thinking 'the writing was on the wall and we didn't even try to change our fate when we had a chance' - i think you are better going down knowing you at least tried to improve things rather than regretting never trying to save ourselves.

I've made this point before that I look at the other teams they have worse squads than us but they are more up for the fight than us. They all seem to be fighting for their lives while we seem to be casually sleep walking towards relegation and have been for months - we havent got an ounce of urgency or real heart in us and I think the other 3 will give you some blood and thunder and we've not got that in us. For all of their failings and they will all have some trouncings between now and the end of the season due to a pure lack of quality i think they will grind out 2 or 3 of wins a piece between now and the end of the season when they need a win to save themselves - i don't think we are capable of grinding out results. We havent shown the stomach for the battle, we can't manage a winning position, we often are cowardly in our approach, capitulate in high pressure scenarios and utterly fragile - there's nothing left to hang your hat on.

To me it looks like the Titanic is going to hit the iceberg, maybe it will and it's too late to avoid it or maybe it wont and everything will work out ok - but for me you grab the wheel and try and be proactive avoid the potential disaster, the risk of steering wrong is at this point is no greater than keeping on what looks like a critical course.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

So you want to retain him for economic reasons not ability reasons? That's hardly a ringing endorsement of his credentials.

No, as I said, I gave my reasons on another thread. I am not saying that we shouldn't sack him, I am saying that the time is not right. I am sure that if we did get rid and spent half of our transfer budget for next year on removing him and bringing in a successor you would be leading the pack bemoaning our next poor transfer window and accusing the board of wasting money. My point is that there is still room for us to get the points necessary to stay in this division and given that those below us are also blowing their chances we should hold our nerve instead of pushing the panic button. As I have said there is no certainty that a new manager would do any better, there is however the certainty that it would cost us a large percentage of next years transfer budget to make the change. I am sure any incoming replacement will want as big a transfer pot as possible. That's my reason for quoting the economic reasoning. His credentials are not in doubt to me, he is a proven league winning manager having a difficult season and I am prepared to stick with him at present.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

I understand your argument but I don't think it's prudent to pretty much hope the others do worse than us, i don't think surviving by default it something we can rely on and therefore should try and do something about it. Like i said earlier in the thread come the last day of the season i don't want to be sitting there relegated thinking 'the writing was on the wall and we didn't even try to change our fate when we had a chance' - i think you go down knowing you tried rather than regretting never trying to save ourselves.

I've made this point before that I look at the other teams they have worse squads than us but they are more up for the fight than us. They all seem to be fighting for their lives while we seem to be casually sleep walking towards relegation and have been for months - we havent got an ounce of urgency or real heart in us and I think the other 3 will give you some blood and thunder and we've not got that in us. For all of their failings and lack of quality they will grind out 2 or 3 of wins a piece between now and the end of the season - i don't think we are capable of grinding out results. We havent shown the stomach for the battle, we can't manage a winning position, we often are cowardly in our approach, capitulate in high pressure scenarios and utterly fragile - there's nothing left to hang your hat on.

I wouldn't argue against any of that KDZ, however it doesn't alter my opinion. I am sure if you listen to the fans of the other clubs around us there will be similar debates taking place. The difference for me is the points accumulated, whether they be from the beginning of the season or recent we are still three points clear with games running down, there is still more than a 50/50 chance of us staying up with Cook in charge. In this instance I am looking purely at the cost to us to change the manager and the impact that could have on next seasons recruitment budget and it doesn't stack up imo. If you could guarantee that a new manager would keep us up then I might be tempted to change my views.

 

[Made in Wigan]

No, as I said, I gave my reasons on another thread. I am not saying that we shouldn't sack him, I am saying that the time is not right. I am sure that if we did get rid and spent half of our transfer budget for next year on removing him and bringing in a successor you would be leading the pack bemoaning our next poor transfer window and accusing the board of wasting money. My point is that there is still room for us to get the points necessary to stay in this division and given that those below us are also blowing their chances we should hold our nerve instead of pushing the panic button. As I have said there is no certainty that a new manager would do any better, there is however the certainty that it would cost us a large percentage of next years transfer budget to make the change. I am sure any incoming replacement will want as big a transfer pot as possible. That's my reason for quoting the economic reasoning. His credentials are not in doubt to me, he is a proven league winning manager having a difficult season and I am prepared to stick with him at present.

Well we wasted enough of our transfer budget already this season so to be honest we would struggle to do worse. I guess that's another reason to dispense with him - for next season if not now. If we went down the budget would be out of the window anyway, we must do whatever is necessary and do whatever we need to to survive this season. If that costs money that affects next years budget then so be it, it would be a price worth paying.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I wouldn't argue against any of that KDZ, however it doesn't alter my opinion. I am sure if you listen to the fans of the other clubs around us there will be similar debates taking place. The difference for me is the points accumulated, whether they be from the beginning of the season or recent we are still three points clear with games running down, there is still more than a 50/50 chance of us staying up with Cook in charge. In this instance I am looking purely at the cost to us to change the manager and the impact that could have on next seasons recruitment budget and it doesn't stack up imo. If you could guarantee that a new manager would keep us up then I might be tempted to change my views.

That's perfectly fair, but do you want to keep Cook next season if we stay up or go down? As if you do then it makes more sense, if you've seen enough and believe that come the end of the season it's time for a change regardless the cost issue becomes irrelevent as you'd make the change anyway.

The next argument is how the money has been wasted on signings under Cooks regime do you think that a transfer budget being larger and used by him would be most likely wasted anyway?

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Well we wasted enough of our transfer budget already this season so to be honest we would struggle to do worse. I guess that's another reason to dispense with him - for next season if not now. If we went down the budget would be out of the window anyway, we must do whatever is necessary and do whatever we need to to survive this season. If that costs money that affects next years budget then so be it, it would be a price worth paying.

As I said before the economics don't make sense. We would be gambling on the new manager bounce that may or may not happen. I do see your point and I actually agree that performances are not what they should be, I don't think anyone could argue that point, however the timing is wrong for me. I see it as screwing up two seasons instead of one by destroying our ability to recruit in the next window. The cash paid out to release Cook and induce someone to replace him would probably get us a couple of decent players in. You and others obviously see it differently and I respect that.

 

[Arthur_Itis]

As I said before the economics don't make sense.

I was with you TB, they didn't make sense to me either, until MiW pointed out that if we sack him at the end of the season rather than now then we still have to pay him out anyway, so the only way economics makes sense at all is if we stick with Cook, he keeps us up and then we stick with him again next season.
Is that what you are proposing ?

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

That's perfectly fair, but do you want to keep Cook next season if we stay up or go down? As if you do then it makes more sense, if you've seen enough and believe that come the end of the season it's time for a change regardless the cost issue becomes irrelevent as you'd make the change anyway.

The next argument is how the money has been wasted on signings under Cooks regime do you think that a transfer budget being larger and used by him would be most likely wasted anyway?

To be honest and fair, I don't really know. My thoughts at the moment are that if we retain our place then he should be given the chance to continue on. His task this season was to keep us in the Championship and he will have achieved that. It will be up to Cook then to push for the money to make improvement to the squad.

As far as wasting money goes, how much has he actually wasted. Most of the signings made have been frees or loans. There is some debate about who actually made the costly signings and whether they were Cooks first choice. The two signings that are mostly questioned are Naismith and Lopes, one of whom is now being touted by some as better than Robinson and the other is a player who is talked about as one for the future. Windass has shown brief spells of potential and was the costliest of his signings. Could it be that what was said at the forum, that we couldn't afford ready made Championship players is true and that we have been forced to take chances on average players developing. Much like taking a chance on the new manager bounce that is being advocated.

It looks like we all have our opinions on his ability to get the best out of players and this debate is set to go on, at least as long as Brexit.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

I was with you TB, they didn't make sense to me either, until MiW pointed out that if we sack him at the end of the season rather than now then we still have to pay him out anyway, so the only way economics makes sense at all is if we stick with Cook, he keeps us up and then we stick with him again next season.
Is that what you are proposing ?

The way I make sense of it Arthur is that if we go down then we wont need as much to spend on replacements as if we stay in the Championship and we wont need to pay an inducement for a short term manager to come in as MiW suggested. Personally as I have said to KDZ I would be tempted to keep him for the foreseeable and give him the chance to improve next season.

 

[craig214]

Attention seeking bellend.

Who?