Bolton /Bury

[Therealwaldo]

Such a shame that any club should go to the wall; especially with the amount of money sloshing around in the top two divisions. It remains to be seen what will be left of the club and where they will resurface. I wish them well and hope they are able to return to league football as soon as possible.
A sad day for all of Bury's fans.
I suspect Bolton will follow suit unfortunately.

In both cases, should they fold, their future will very much depend on their grounds. I can’t see Bolton starting out at the bottom of the pyramid in their current ground. They wouldn’t be able to afford to run it. Bury would probably be ok. However, I think in both cases the ownership of the ground is part of the financial tangle they are in.

 

[rambolerambole]

Sorry this needs to happen

People cannot takeover clubs run up huge debts and expect to get away with it.

The system is broken and needs to be put back on a stable footing.

Bolton in particular are a club that have caused major player transfer inflation and wage inflation.

If you want league football to end let these clubs carry on moving from admin to admin.

The first cut is the deepest but usually the most necessary. Its asd for their fans but there is a bigger issue here than these two clubs who used their financial position to great effect in the past. I feel no sympathy.

If it were Gillingham they would sell us down the river without a second look.

 

[alphabet_king]

Sorry this needs to happen

People cannot takeover clubs run up huge debts and expect to get away with it.

The system is broken and needs to be put back on a stable footing.

Bolton in particular are a club that have caused major player transfer inflation and wage inflation.

If you want league football to end let these clubs carry on moving from admin to admin.

The first cut is the deepest but usually the most necessary. Its asd for their fans but there is a bigger issue here than these two clubs who used their financial position to great effect in the past. I feel no sympathy.

If it were Gillingham they would sell us down the river without a second look.

As much as i do feel sorry for any true fans who simply wont have a club to follow and i wouldnt wish it on anyone, i am struggling to feel complete sympathy. Although i am not sure who to aim that at...

Bury got promoted last year when others didnt. They couldn't afford it so basically they cheated their way to it. Other clubs lost out on their promotion season because of their cheating. Imagine not having our league title winning season because another club decided to spend money they didnt have, to buy promotion.

Likewise with bolton. Remember 2 years ago when they absolutely blew us away. I remember them being so far better than us it was nearly embarrassing.they got promotion that season too i think. Now we know their promotion was also based on spending money they didnt have and never were going to get.

And you can bet their fans urged them to spend it. You can bet their fans didnt complain they were spending beyond their means.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

Now it turns out that the EFL did not do a fit-for-purpose test on Dale because he had come in to save Bury.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

Likewise with bolton. Remember 2 years ago when they absolutely blew us away. I remember them being so far better than us it was nearly embarrassing.they got promotion that season too i think. Now we know their promotion was also based on spending money they didnt have and never were going to get.

It goes deeper than that in terms of the debt build up.

And you can bet their fans urged them to spend it. You can bet their fans didnt complain they were spending beyond their means.

And you don't think Gills fans would be any different - even now we don't know if Scally is spending beyond the Club's means. It happened before.

 

[jokerman]

"Imagine not having our league title winning season because another club decided to spend money they didnt have, to buy promotion."

Swindon, Macari, grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[SE1_Gills]

What a mess

 

[Trev_GFC]

Horrible, horrible news. Should never happen to any of the 92 given the level of governance. The tough thing is these are actually the right decisions for me.

The footballing authorities (including Premier League) need to start realising that football clubs are more than just businesses, and don’t be scared to start bringing in laws aimed at blocking certain business decisions e.g.:

- Far greater due diligence to deny fraudsters, asset-strippers and other individuals getting anywhere near a boardroom. Perhaps control their salaries or ‘consultancy fees’.

- All football clubs should own at least 1/2 of their stadium/holding company, and block any Coventry-style hostage situations.

- Rip up FFP (Financial Fair Play) and start again with proper salary caps implemented from the Prem down over a 3-5 year period from next Summer then that’s it. No more spreading your misplay over 3 seasons or whatever.

We need to ensure British football gets away from the “You can only get success with a sugar daddy“ philosophy which thinks the likes of Bournemouth and Salford are “romance stories” while Bury, Rushden & Diamonds etc “get what they deserve for taking a gamble”.

Similarly, no SME should go bust because Portsmouth decided to spend over 100% of their previous turnover on footballers before lucking out on repeated piss-take CVAs.

 

[jogills]

I feel sorry for myself. Sorry that our table changed without a ball being kicked, sorry that I may never go to Gigg Lane again, sorry that I don't know if our game on Saturday will go ahead, sorrier still that I don't know whether any result would matter, or not. Be as ruthless and clear headed as you like but the foundations are crumbling.

All clubs cheat, nearly every player cheats but we should concentrate on the biggest cheats. We don't.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

The footballing authorities (including Premier League) need to start realising that football clubs are more than just businesses, and don’t be scared to start bringing in laws aimed at blocking certain business decisions e.g.:

I agree but you can't impose rules on a company that are beyond provisions of the Companies Act but you can make membership of the EFL far more stringent.

The sort of suggestions you're talking about would be contrary to what Scally has done/doing

Far greater due diligence to deny fraudsters, asset-strippers and other individuals getting anywhere near a boardroom.

An asset stripping owner doesn't need to sit on the board of directors - he can put a puppet there

Perhaps control their salaries or ‘consultancy fees’.

How? Only by having rules for EFL membership

All football clubs should own at least 1/2 of their stadium/holding company, and block any Coventry-style hostage situations.

Like GFC you mean where the ground is owned by Scally apart from the minority interest [the other shareholders in GFC]. How do we know if there's a secret deal out there made in exchange for £9m of debt disappearing off the books

Rip up FFP (Financial Fair Play) and start again with proper salary caps implemented from the Prem down over a 3-5 year period from next Summer then that’s it. No more spreading your misplay over 3 seasons or whatever.

There has to be a cushion - you do deals with players that are fixed for the duration and then gates drop and the capping ratio goes out of the window - what then?

We need to ensure British football gets away from the “You can only get success with a sugar daddy“ philosophy which thinks the likes of Bournemouth and Salford are “romance stories” while Bury, Rushden & Diamonds etc “get what they deserve for taking a gamble”.

Half the time the fans and the EFL are in the dark. Forcing a company to disclose more than is required under the Companies Act could be difficult to enforce.

Perhaps the EFL should be a truly independent body rather than an association formed by its 72 members [or fewer now]. We all know what happens when organisation do self-policing, eg the press, the banks

 

[Vambogills]

The EFL must have enough money floating around to invest in a right and proper test for potential owners of its clubs. Too many of the 72 current football clubs have ended up with serial bankrupts and asset strippers creaming off the cash.
There has been an unprecedented spell of fan protests against owners over recent years including, Charlton, Southend, Orient, Blackburn, Blackpool, Coventry, Macclesfield, Bury and Bolton to name a few.
I fear it will get worse before it gets any better.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

The EFL must have enough money floating around to invest in a right and proper test for potential owners of its clubs. Too many of the 72 current football clubs have ended up with serial bankrupts and asset strippers creaming off the cash.
There has been an unprecedented spell of fan protests against owners over recent years including, Charlton, Southend, Orient, Blackburn, Blackpool, Coventry, Macclesfield, Bury and Bolton to name a few.
I fear it will get worse before it gets any better.

You have not included GFC in that list - it was up against it several times and escaped. The EFL needs to be independent.

 

[Tarian]

The footballing authorities (including Premier League) need to start realising that football clubs are more than just businesses, and don’t be scared to start bringing in laws aimed at blocking certain business decisions e.g.:

A couple of months ago MPs debated whether a statutory football body should be created if the FA / EFL didn't act to protect communities & fans.
MPs on all sides expressed the view that FCs were not merely businesses that could "live" anywhere (e.g. Wimbledon to MK) but assets of their particular community.

- Far greater due diligence to deny fraudsters, asset-strippers and other individuals getting anywhere near a boardroom. Perhaps control their salaries or ‘consultancy fees’.

- All football clubs should own at least 1/2 of their stadium/holding company, and block any Coventry-style hostage situations.

- Rip up FFP (Financial Fair Play) and start again with proper salary caps implemented from the Prem down over a 3-5 year period from next Summer then that’s it. No more spreading your misplay over 3 seasons or whatever.

That MP debate went on to say that Company Law for FC's should be reviewed - with the sort of issues you mention being considered.

We have differerent corporate arrangements for Mutual (Co-op / Building) Societies and for Charities - so why not "Community Assets"?
Presumably a FC could in theory be a hybrid of Corporate and Mutual with its own set of Rules?

We need to ensure British football gets away from the “You can only get success with a sugar daddy“ philosophy which thinks the likes of Bournemouth and Salford are “romance stories” while Bury, Rushden & Diamonds etc “get what they deserve for taking a gamble”.

One thing Paul Scally did (which rarely gets a mention) .....
At every Shareholders AGM his 76% (IIRC) votes passed a motion entitling the Club to issue 60,000,000 shares to whoever the club (i.e. PS) liked - which would dwarf the 46,000,000 shares in existence, thus diluting even more what little influence the 24% (?) fan shareholders might have had.

Most big Corporates give their Board the right ot issue (say) 5% of new shares for (e.g.) Staff bonuses - but I've never seen 130% !!!

Similarly, no SME should go bust because Portsmouth decided to spend over 100% of their previous turnover on footballers before lucking out on repeated piss-take CVAs.

As above .... Company Law for FCs needs changing.

Lets hope that the Bury / Bolton problems gives MPs new impetus to review the legal framework for FCs - before another Club goes.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

As above .... Company Law for FCs needs changing.

If the EFL's conditions for membership were tightened, company law would not need to be changed. For example, EFL membership could be conditional upon a debt to assets ratio, ie a formula for the FC [company] borrowing powers and so on.

What I find really bad is the woman from the EFL accepting no responsibility, ie everyone else's fault

 

[Gilles Lingam]

Mirror's Chief Football Writer John Cross sat down with Gillingham chairman Paul Scally to discuss Bury's expulsion from the EFL
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/bury-demise-could-just-start-19023478

 

[chris who]

Mirror's Chief Football Writer John Cross sat down with Gillingham chairman Paul Scally to discuss Bury's expulsion from the EFL
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/bury-demise-could-just-start-19023478

The fact that Scally is quoted as saying this.

“At the moment, anyone could be sent to prison for fraud but still be able somehow to take over a football club as long as he has not had an insolvency in football".

And then still employs Steve Evans who was found guilty of fraud while manager of Boston says it all.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

And then still employs Steve Evans who was found guilty of fraud while manager of Boston says it all.

Not really, he's not an owner/officer of the limited company

 

[chris who]

Not really, he's not an owner/officer of the limited company

Whatever actually happened Evans must have known of what was happening and my point stands if Scally thinks the owners have to be of a higher standard.So do management at all levels.No point in one without the other in my view.

 

[ian08040]

BOLTON SAVED

 

[nitram77]

That means we will have a different team to play on Saturday, can we up our game before the new players have a chance to settle.