27 Passes | Page 2 | Vital Football

27 Passes

I think the point that people are trying to make is a simple one. We didn't hoof the ball forward hopefully, we built up from the back, slowly at first, but built the tempo as we moved further forward.

Years ago I remember watching Spain do similar and everyone saying how wonderful it was, slow patient passing across the back line lulling the opposition into a false sense of security, then a sudden injection of pace and incisive passing to open up an opportunity.

Hopefully we will see more of this as the season goes on and less of the high hopeful stuff of the past few games. This will all depend of course on whether the opposition allow us to play with this style or if they push up on us and close the play down as unfortunately I don't feel that Dunkley is comfortable with the ball at his feet and under pressure just hoofs the ball forward.
 
I'm not convinced the "hoofball" is a tactic, I think it's a symptom. A symptom of players playing with zero confidence. There's little movement off the ball, there's little responsibility taken, the easy option is the default position (watch Nathan Byrne, I reckon he cuts back and plays sideways / backwards 95% of the time now - a shadow of the lad who ripped up league one). This lack of options and risk taking often ends up with a long aimless punt forward and I reckon it frustrates Cook and the rest of the management team just as much as it does the rest of us.
 
It was a good team goal Exiled, not a ‘simple’ one so plenty to dissect - which has been done well. Regardless of ones views on the build up, young Joe had a lot to do to finish that and should rightly get the plaudits, it was a sublime turn and decisive finish. There was none of this indecision and lack of confidence in front of goal, he created a chance for himself and smashed it in. He looked decent when I saw him on his debut as a 16 year old at Birmingham and there is no doubt we have a player here.

For me it begs the question if we are capable of passing a football then why are lumping it long all the time? It happened for long spells last season and it seems the Moore signing was to continue this tactic. Personally I think he is being under utilised, is a better player than that and it is not working - as it didn’t predominantly last. I’m not suggesting we try and be as elaborate as 27 passes all the time but surely to Christ we have players capable of passing it, finding space and indeed in the case of some beating a man. You need to be flexible with tactics in a game so being able to play long is fine, but it shouldn’t be the default tactic.
 
Arthur_Itis said:
I'm not convinced the "hoofball" is a tactic, I think it's a symptom. A symptom of players playing with zero confidence. There's little movement off the ball, there's little responsibility taken, the easy option is the default position (watch Nathan Byrne, I reckon he cuts back and plays sideways / backwards 95% of the time now - a shadow of the lad who ripped up league one). This lack of options and risk taking often ends up with a long aimless punt forward and I reckon it frustrates Cook and the rest of the management team just as much as it does the rest of us.
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Football is all about confidence. Having Kieffer now gives our players who still have this away hangover from last season an out ball. As has been pointed out by others we are better than that. This is not the way our manager wants to play because if you wanted to deliberately go direct you’d play two up top like some on here are suggesting. We need to have a right go at the opposition away from home and get a confidence boosting away win or two to get the belief back into the lads. I must say though that I think some players are not up to the job and need to make way for a couple of others who need to be given a chance.
 
Arthur_Itis said:
I'm not convinced the "hoofball" is a tactic, I think it's a symptom. A symptom of players playing with zero confidence. There's little movement off the ball, there's little responsibility taken, the easy option is the default position (watch Nathan Byrne, I reckon he cuts back and plays sideways / backwards 95% of the time now - a shadow of the lad who ripped up league one). This lack of options and risk taking often ends up with a long aimless punt forward and I reckon it frustrates Cook and the rest of the management team just as much as it does the rest of us.
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Well put ?
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
I think the point that people are trying to make is a simple one. We didn't hoof the ball forward hopefully, we built up from the back, slowly at first, but built the tempo as we moved further forward.

Years ago I remember watching Spain do similar and everyone saying how wonderful it was, slow patient passing across the back line lulling the opposition into a false sense of security, then a sudden injection of pace and incisive passing to open up an opportunity.

Hopefully we will see more of this as the season goes on and less of the high hopeful stuff of the past few games. This will all depend of course on whether the opposition allow us to play with this style or if they push up on us and close the play down as unfortunately I don't feel that Dunkley is comfortable with the ball at his feet and under pressure just hoofs the ball forward.
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Not just dunkley all back four . No confidence
 
rumjocky said:
Not just dunkley all back four . No confidence
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My point about Dunkley is that he has never been comfortable with the ball and is always looking to pump it long even when there is a simple pass to midfield available. At least with the rest of our back four they will look for the short pass or to play it out. Robinson and Byrne will both run with the ball, although at the moment neither seem happy to try and take the opposition defence on and turn back on themselves to pass inside. Cant comment on Mulgrew as I haven't seen enough of him but Fox is quite happy to play the ball out and Kipre at least tries to at times.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
Robinson and Byrne will both run with the ball, although at the moment neither seem happy to try and take the opposition defence on.
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Agree about Byrne at the moment but I actually thought Robinson played very well at Hull, yes a couple of mistakes but he's only human, but he demonstrated great attacking intent and was close to my MOM. Complete contrast to Byrne.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
My point about Dunkley is that he has never been comfortable with the ball and is always looking to pump it long even when there is a simple pass to midfield available. At least with the rest of our back four they will look for the short pass or to play it out. Robinson and Byrne will both run with the ball, although at the moment neither seem happy to try and take the opposition defence on and turn back on themselves to pass inside. Cant comment on Mulgrew as I haven't seen enough of him but Fox is quite happy to play the ball out and Kipre at least tries to at times.
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Fed up with reading your comments at the moment TB ! ... I am reading them and agreeing with pretty much all of them.

Chey Dunkley is an interesting one.
Very dangerous for set pieces and corners and a real attacking threat at times.
He actually does appear to have a nice touch (of the ball) when going forward.
Anyone who watched the Hull City game might remember him high up the pitch with the ball at his feet.
Pretty good defending with his head too.
What he appears to revert to is the really simple pass (mostly to Nathan Byrne), the diagonal pass out to the left or ice on the ball hoof.
Cedric at least will look to bring the ball out and push forward whereas CD appears to get a nose bleed if he moves towards the half way line, with the ball at his feet.

Is that a) A confidence thing b) Coaching that doesn't / not good enough to develop the player c) The player will never change his game.

Emmerson Boyce coaches at Christopher Park and was smooth talked into changing his game by Roberto.
Am I totally niave in suggesting that a former player can pass on his experience to younger centre backs / defenders ... to help improve their game ?
 
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Arthur_Itis said:
Agree about Byrne at the moment but I actually thought Robinson played very well at Hull, yes a couple of mistakes but he's only human, but he demonstrated great attacking intent and was close to my MOM. Complete contrast to Byrne.
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To be honest Arthur, my comments were a generalisation based on the performances I have seen so far. I can't comment on the Hull game as I couldn't attend, so I will take your word for it.
 
OnLoanfromEnfield said:
Fed up with reading your comments at the moment TB ! ... I am reading them and agreeing with pretty much all of them.

Chey Dunkley is an interesting one.
Very dangerous for set pieces and corners and a real attacking threat at times.
He actually does appear to have a nice touch (of the ball) when going forward.
Anyone who watched the Hull City game might remember him high up the pitch with the ball at his feet.
Pretty good defending with his head too.
What he appears to revert to is the really simple pass (mostly to Nathan Byrne), the diagonal pass out to the left or ice on the ball hoof.
Cedric at least will look to bring the ball out and push forward whereas CD appears to get a nose bleed if he moves towards the half way line, with the ball at his feet.

Is that a) A confidence thing b) Coaching that doesn't / not good enough to develop the player c) The player will never change his game.

Emmerson Boyce coaches at Christopher Park and was smooth talked into changing his game by Roberto.
Am I totally niave in suggesting that a former player can pass on his experience to younger centre backs / defenders ... to help improve their game ?
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I like Dunkley and am not happy criticising him. I just believe it is a limitation in his game at present. He is still young in terms of his playing career and with the right coaching and encouragement will no doubt turn into a very reliable centre back.

I am sure what you are suggesting would help him.

I would be chuffed to see him develop into a good ball playing footballer with the composure to hold onto and bring the ball forward, however I don't think it is absolutely necessary. As long as we have someone alongside him who is able to carry out those tasks and the defensive mids give him a simple out ball they can do the fetching and carrying whilst he concentrates on what he is good at.

We seem to forget that both he and Cedric are still very young and learning their trade. We need the likes of Mulgrew and Fox to pass on their experience to them to improve their games. Both Mulgrew and Fox are able to play the ball out and make a pass and if Chey and Cedric play alongside either of these for any length of time I am sure this will rub off on them. Patience is the key.
 
I don't think at the moment Kipre or Dunkley are quite up to Championship standard but I think if someone like Steve Bruce got hold of them they'd be moulded into top defenders at this level at least.

I think both have all the tools but they havent developed much beyond the level they arrived at. Our defending is all over the place organisationally so it's no suprise. I believe strong defensively astute coach could likely take them to the next level. So I think TB was right to question that aspect although I dont know if Boyce is the answer - he could be but good players aren't always able to be good coaches. But if he's working for the club anyway id certainly draft him in for some sessions to help and see if he can help. He has more recent top flight experience than possibly the rest of the coaching staff combined so he could be a rich source of untapped potential himself.

I think a few players are in a similar boat to our 2 centre backs and have unfulfilled potential we are not tapping into currently.
 
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