MATCH THREAD v Wolves 17th Feb 3 pm | Page 20 | Vital Football

MATCH THREAD v Wolves 17th Feb 3 pm

muttley said:
I didn't see either of the last 2 games, and probably don't need to based on everyones analyses. I just hope this is just a flat period and not a case that Ange isn't going to adapt.

When you're Celtic, you let the opposition worry about you. When you're Celtic playing in the CL, you need to worry about your opposition. I don't know whether Ange did or didn't use those games to find a plan B, but I'm sensing not. There were no expectations to do well in that comp anyway.

Obviously, when you're Spurs and in the PL, there really are few games where you can just get on with your own tactics and let the opposition worry about you. I doubt even Pep or Klopp does that in the top of the table clashes. They tweak things appropriately.

Quite worryingly, the fingers will be pointing at Ange for his inflexibilities. He is a lot more likeable than Eddie Jones but if he doesn't adapt then he will start getting the Eddie Jones treatment from the fans.

As I say, I haven't seen the games but do believe that, like Conte, Ange needs that midfield pivot to be on fire to make the system work well. It hasn't been for a long time now and the defence are having too much work to do.

I'm also sensing that instead of having these short, intense training sessions Ange should consider switching things up tactically. The newest pattern is seeing players not even making the weekend fixture because he's broke them during the week. Then the boys turn up, look less than 100% intense on the pitch and get outplayed. That's not a good look for Ange.
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Good point regarding training.
 
muttley said:
I actually think Kante took the Makalele role to a new level. I couldn't see Sarr as a deep lying Makalele. I can see him as the all action Kante type though. Perhaps Bentancur might have to think about adapting his game to Makakele's if he can't get back to the all action approach he had before the injuries.
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Benty can fulfill that role but since his return he hasn't looked nearly as sharp. Could just be a case of time.

Yves looks like an accident waiting to happen. If he doesn't fall over himself he's getting himself booked for reckless challenges. He was an outstanding prospect when he arrived. If anything he's only gone backwards.

This position will be key moving forward so if neither of these chaps can cope with the role we'll need a new face brought in. I'd be looking to do just that anyway.
 
One thing has been very telling to me the last run of games....everyone regardless of position...excluding Romero/VdV....are so focused on the attack, when we eventually lose the ball due to a horrible pass or decision...we are WAY out of position and extremely vulnerable to a counter.

I can't count how many times I saw Davies and Royal and Biss and Sarr farther forward than some of our attacking players! I was like...."well I hope we don't lose....FUCK WE LOST THE BALL....and we are in danger of conceding very quickly.
I get playing attack minded football...I am all for it...but the guys need to be smart and be ready to defend as a team the moment we lose the ball.
 
Interesting point by Danny Kelly, no team in any country has EVER qualified for the Champions League conceding 1.5 goals a game, just as we are doing.

I like Ange and don't want him out but if he only has this one, solitary way of playing then he will be found out, he might have been already.

He has a lot to sort out, and without a flexible approach, I'm not sure he will. Set pieces, when the smallest guy on the pitch can score, unchallenged. Breaks against our two at the back because they sit on the halfway line. (One of those is a bit lunatic, so just wait for him to over commit and those two CBs covering, become just one. Playing average fullbacks as attacking midfielders etc.

If he just sticks with the same, over and over again, we might as well put our tactics folder into the opposition changing room.
 
sukhothai said:
Interesting point by Danny Kelly, no team in any country has EVER qualified for the Champions League conceding 1.5 goals a game, just as we are doing.

I like Ange and don't want him out but if he only has this one, solitary way of playing then he will be found out, he might have been already.

He has a lot to sort out, and without a flexible approach, I'm not sure he will. Set pieces, when the smallest guy on the pitch can score, unchallenged. Breaks against our two at the back because they sit on the halfway line. (One of those is a bit lunatic, so just wait for him to over commit and those two CBs covering, become just one. Playing average fullbacks as attacking midfielders etc.

If he just sticks with the same, over and over again, we might as well put our tactics folder into the opposition changing room.
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Our defending is actually shocking now, even with our starting back 4....at set pieces our marking is diabolical; we have none to little screening ahead of the back two, and a propensity to give away range finding silly fouls that pile on the pressure or give away chances and goals, and we're now suffering from a complete absence of footballing intelligence and direction in our defending, we're giving goals away for fun now and unfortunately, not scoring for fun..

Defensive wise, as a team discipline our midfield back to the keeper it's a mess, unless we rethink what we do, and we don't have our midfield and back 4 first choices ready and able, a thumping is coming our way..
 
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Charlie sums it up better than I can, an extract:

theathletic.com

Stand-in full-backs show Spurs and Postecoglou need fewer square pegs in round holes

With usual inverted full-backs Pedro Porro and Destiny Udogie both injured, Spurs turned to two more orthodox full-backs against Wolves
theathletic.com theathletic.com

When asked on Friday if the absence of his first-choice full-backs Pedro Porro and Destiny Udogie would alter his team’s approach, Ange said

“It doesn’t change the way we play,” he said, “but a player brings their own unique ability to each position. The structure won’t change and the way we set up won’t change but different players bring different attributes.”

Postecoglou’s full-backs do not operate as conventional defenders. They are asked to ‘invert’ into central midfield and, in Porro’s case, almost act as the team’s playmaker.

This is especially key against low blocks that are designed to shackle Spurs’ creative options further forward — low blocks like the one Wolves used on Saturday, which meant plenty of touches for Royal in central positions.

The result wasn’t pretty. Royal lost the ball in dangerous areas twice in the first half and when he tried to be more expansive, he clipped a crossfield pass over to Davies straight out of play. Wolves scored their opening goal soon after.

Davies had a better time of it on the left, but that was largely because he got to do more conventional full-back things. Davies’ best moment of the game came just before half-time when he made an overlapping run beyond Son Heung-min and put in a dangerous cross that Wolves bundled out of play for a corner.

Both full-backs spent less time centrally than Porro and Udogie normally do, but they were still out of their comfort zones.

But other than telling us that Royal isn’t comfortable playing as a Postecoglou right-back (this was his first league start in that position since the opening weekend), which we knew already, what can we conclude from how the Spurs head coach used his two full-backs against Wolves on Saturday?

The first is that he’s not going to take the short-term option and tweak the full-back roles to suit Royal or Davies. He could have asked one or both of them to play a more conventional up-and-down role, but that sort of compromise is not in his make-up.

The second is that for Royal to be a part of Postecoglou’s long-term plans, he will have to adapt his game and improve — something Porro has done to an immeasurable degree this season.

That kind of transformation is possible, but what tends to happen in the kind of rebuild Postecoglou is attempting is that the first season is about seeing which players can cope with the head coach’s demands, and which can’t.

We’re only two transfer windows into Postecoglou’s reign, and it’s fair to assume that plenty of players from this first season will be upgraded and moved on this summer and beyond. Royal is solid, but along with Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg, he could be one of those players who, in years to come, it feels hard to believe played under Postecoglou.

Given Postecoglou won’t change how he asks his team to play, the reality — as frustrating as it might be for some Spurs fans — is that if players are missing there are going to be some games like this. Trying to play ‘Ange-ball’ without Ange players won’t always work. This begs the question of whether Postecoglou should be more adaptable. But we know the answer to that question.

After the game, Postecoglou refused to blame the defeat on Spurs missing their first-choice full-backs.“We’ve had a lot of injuries this year, we’ve certainly performed better than that when we have had injuries,” Postecoglou said. “So I don’t think that’s the reason. Like I said our general level of performance wasn’t where it should be.”

The good news is that with no game this weekend, Porro and Udogie are expected to be back for Spurs’ next game — at home to Crystal Palace on March 2. While Spurs have absorbed a lot of injuries this season, being without both of their full-backs again would be a worry. This early into Postecoglou’s time at Spurs, this is a team, not a squad, built to play his football.

And as disheartening as that can be on days like this, one has to trust that there’ll be fewer round pegs in square holes as the Postecoglou project evolves.
 
As I have just been reminded, Ange is breaking heads and moulds internally, it is his first season, and he is testing everyone to see who can and cannot step up their game or generally improve; in the next two windows will address our inherent weaknesses. The budgets are going to be sorely tested to get the sort of players Ange will be after.

I've just been told the atmosphere in the dressing room isn't a particularly good one as it become increasingly clear that the herd is going to be culled come the summer.

Perhaps we should simply forget CL qualification, let the season play out as some players cut their Spurs futures short; I guess we ALL know who's lined up for the exit, just as they do.

It's going to be hard to stomach Ange's 'the man is not for turning' stance, I'm not convinced by it at all, it feels and looks illogical to me. Hopefully, he knows what he's doing, and we should perhaps all accept that this season is now almost certainly a write-off as far as the CL is concerned.

All I think we can do this season now is still get over the line for the Europa, it feels like a missed opportunity, but perhaps the longer term plan is rightly Ange's focus., I hope he's given the opportunity to see it through.
 
Spursex said:
Our defending is actually shocking now, even with our starting back 4....at set pieces our marking is diabolical; we have none to little screening ahead of the back two, and a propensity to give away range finding silly fouls that pile on the pressure or give away chances and goals, and we're now suffering from a complete absence of footballing intelligence and direction in our defending, we're giving goals away for fun now and unfortunately, not scoring for fun..

Defensive wise, as a team discipline our midfield back to the keeper it's a mess, unless we rethink what we do, and we don't have our midfield and back 4 first choices ready and able, a thumping is coming our way..
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We've already been on the end of a thumping at Brighton & Hove Albion.
 
Spursex said:
As I have just been reminded, Ange is breaking heads and moulds internally, it is his first season, and he is testing everyone to see who can and cannot step up their game or generally improve; in the next two windows will address our inherent weaknesses. The budgets are going to be sorely tested to get the sort of players Ange will be after.

I've just been told the atmosphere in the dressing room isn't a particularly good one as it become increasingly clear that the herd is going to be culled come the summer.

Perhaps we should simply forget CL qualification, let the season play out as some players cut their Spurs futures short; I guess we ALL know who's lined up for the exit, just as they do.

It's going to be hard to stomach Ange's 'the man is not for turning' stance, I'm not convinced by it at all, it feels and looks illogical to me. Hopefully, he knows what he's doing, and we should perhaps all accept that this season is now almost certainly a write-off as far as the CL is concerned.

All I think we can do this season now is still get over the line for the Europa, it feels like a missed opportunity, but perhaps the longer term plan is rightly Ange's focus., I hope he's given the opportunity to see it through.
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Can we afford the absolute top tier he will require for the system to work?

Seems to me its like Conte/Jose wanting ready made players for the system.
 
Sockspurs said:
Can we afford the absolute top tier he will require for the system to work?

Seems to me its like Conte/Jose wanting ready made players for the system.
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I've said this on a different thread, but the biggest worry for me at the moment is that the players who are most integral to the team are the ones who can be trusted least with either fitness or discipline. VdV, Romero, Madds, Biss and Rodney. How many games have that lost missed this season alone? If that doesn't improve I can't see how it can work.
 
Spursex said:
As I have just been reminded, Ange is breaking heads and moulds internally, it is his first season, and he is testing everyone to see who can and cannot step up their game or generally improve; in the next two windows will address our inherent weaknesses. The budgets are going to be sorely tested to get the sort of players Ange will be after.

I've just been told the atmosphere in the dressing room isn't a particularly good one as it become increasingly clear that the herd is going to be culled come the summer.

Perhaps we should simply forget CL qualification, let the season play out as some players cut their Spurs futures short; I guess we ALL know who's lined up for the exit, just as they do.

It's going to be hard to stomach Ange's 'the man is not for turning' stance, I'm not convinced by it at all, it feels and looks illogical to me. Hopefully, he knows what he's doing, and we should perhaps all accept that this season is now almost certainly a write-off as far as the CL is concerned.

All I think we can do this season now is still get over the line for the Europa, it feels like a missed opportunity, but perhaps the longer term plan is rightly Ange's focus., I hope he's given the opportunity to see it through.
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You have put that as in "breaking heads and moulds" how I have been thinking, he to me is looking at what he has, thus knowing who will make it with him.

This points to me, that Angie knows what he wants, as in player's n attitude wise, so this season is basically a "look see" season.

We fans will have to put up with it, as the old saying goes "Rome wasn't built in a day" please be patient my fellow Yids, ok! I know we have already had years of being patient, so a little bit longer will not hurt.

I think I predicted finishing 4th this season, did I really believe that? NO! I bloody didn't, but am ever the optimist lol!
I find negativity for my beloved Spurs to hard a thing to do or say lol!

So saying again our Cobber will know who he wants and does not want, so over to Spurs to get em for him where possible.

Lets just enjoy this Rollercoaster of a season, and just wait n see, we might be pleasantly surprised or will not be! simple as that. COYS
 
Spursex said:
As I have just been reminded, Ange is breaking heads and moulds internally, it is his first season, and he is testing everyone to see who can and cannot step up their game or generally improve; in the next two windows will address our inherent weaknesses. The budgets are going to be sorely tested to get the sort of players Ange will be after.

I've just been told the atmosphere in the dressing room isn't a particularly good one as it become increasingly clear that the herd is going to be culled come the summer.

Perhaps we should simply forget CL qualification, let the season play out as some players cut their Spurs futures short; I guess we ALL know who's lined up for the exit, just as they do.

It's going to be hard to stomach Ange's 'the man is not for turning' stance, I'm not convinced by it at all, it feels and looks illogical to me. Hopefully, he knows what he's doing, and we should perhaps all accept that this season is now almost certainly a write-off as far as the CL is concerned.

All I think we can do this season now is still get over the line for the Europa, it feels like a missed opportunity, but perhaps the longer term plan is rightly Ange's focus., I hope he's given the opportunity to see it through.
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It's tough to swallow because there have been games where we've defended resolutely and showed some real grit, other games it's worse than watching us under Ossie (at least we had some attacking flair, half the time I have no idea what we're trying to do!)

Besides Porro against Burnley or Emerson against Brentford, have we scored outside of the box this season? Have we even had a shot in anger?

Klopp had a torrid time in his first season, Arteta faired poorly too and ended up in a title race the next season so I'm not going to cry yet, but the gloss is starting to peel away a bit now.
 
Spursex said:
I hate to write the man off, but I think he's reached the end of the road - A year off in some sunny climes somewhere rebuilding his body is perhaps the only hope he has left.

This is what all too often happens when young players are chucked in at the deep end of top level professional football.
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I agree and respect how slow we're going with our young talent.
 
Sockspurs said:
Can we afford the absolute top tier he will require for the system to work?

Seems to me its like Conte/Jose wanting ready made players for the system.
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I suspect we'll be buying 'potential' players in their very early 20's and then he'll try and develop them - which I'm told is why he's working Dragu so hard in training and why he has so far not get committed him except for a few minutes here and there, having played as a 'traditional' CB, I'm told he's struggling to get to grips with the high-line/pressing approach., so may yet be a "Rodon' who might yet get sold if he can't step up...buying 'potential' players is always a high risk, even if their attitude and effort is exemplary.
 
Spursex said:
I suspect we'll be buying 'potential' players in their very early 20's and then he'll try and develop them - which I'm told is why he's working Dragu so hard in training and why he has so far not get committed him except for a few minutes here and there, having played as a 'traditional' CB, I'm told he's struggling to get to grips with the high-line/pressing approach., so may yet be a "Rodon' who might yet get sold if he can't step up...buying 'potential' players is always a high risk, even if their attitude and effort is exemplary.
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Biss?

I've been utterly bemused by some of his performances. He's clearly struggling & that's just with the basics. I'm not entirely sure what the problem is but he's looking an awful lot like the square peg that Charlie was describing.
 
He's right, we must stick to Ange plan and have faith that the 2nd season will show the benefit. Last August most of us expressed the opinion that a more enjoyable style with a secure mid-table finish would be a satisfactory first season for Ange. What we didn't expect however that half way through it, the door to a top 4/5 finish was ajar with MU, Chelsea, Brighton and Newcastle all having struggled. That has changed the mood hugely and if we miss our because of a perceived naivity or stubbornness to not play the percentages, that patience to wait for the second season will wear thin, but must be resisted. He deserves that, if only for the feel good factor he has brought back to the club.
 
As I said I another post , I came very very close to not watching us at all last season .. I was not seeing anything to like in our play , even in games that we won , the football was awful, listening to the man in charge was purgatory, team selection was a joke .

I didn’t expect to have enjoyed this season as much as I have , some of our football
has been magical .

Not all of it I know .
 
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