The Grim vs the Grecians | Page 13 | Vital Football

The Grim vs the Grecians

moonay said:
As you say, it feels as though that should be a fundamental skill, but I suppose if it were really that simple, then every player in every team would be doing this, competently, all of the time in every game ... at speed.
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I think movement is a fundamental, but of course some players / teams do it better than others. I just don't understand considering the style we want to play is based completely on movement we seem so void of it so often - especially when some weeks we do it effortlessly.

It's not so much the case we try it every game and some weeks we get it right and others wrong. It feels like some weeks we forget how to do it altogether which is so strange.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I think it is a fundamental, some players / teams do it better than others. I just don't understand considering the style we want to play is based on movement we seem so void of it so often - especially when some weeks we do it effortlessly.

It's not so much the case we try it and some weeks we get it right and others wrong, it feels like some weeks we forget how to do it altogether which is so strange.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head ... some weeks we do it effortlessly (for some parts of some games).

However, it's clearly not a natural thing for them to do ... yet. That's why I think (like TB) we just need to show a little patience.
 
moonay said:
We were relegated ... who cares ... what he gave us will live in our memories forever ... and not just the FAC Cup win, but wins over all the top 4, ... summat that no other manager had managed to do (not a single win win before Bob).
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And a relegation on his cv couldn’t wait to get out door fast enough. That’s how loyal he was. Fa cup was one brilliant day the best.
 
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moonay said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head ... some weeks we do it effortlessly (for some parts of some games).

However, it's clearly not a natural thing for them to do ... yet. That's why I think (like TB) we just need to show a little patience.
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As I say it's not so much that you see them trying to do the same things every week and it just not coming off. It's like they don't even attempt to do things they did well the week before that is bizarre.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
As I said, isn't this something that comes with time. Time spent in games rather than time spent on the training ground.

I don't believe you can replicate match conditions in training, you can set up drills and training exercises but you can't replicate how opposition players will react to any given situation, you can only guess.

That is why I think there are times when the younger players are confused as this was not what was predicted in training and can only be experienced in match conditions.

Which takes time.

There is also the issue of how much actual time can be spent during the season to spend on the type of drills and exercises to instil the basics into players. Time is at a premium with games coming thick and fast for most of the season, particularly if you get through a couple of cup rounds in the various competitions. Most weeks will see the team playing two games which will be followed by strength and fitness sessions, warm downs and planning sessions. It doesn't leave a lot of time to spend on actually teaching players new skills.

The time for that is during breaks in the schedule, international breaks and such like, but our problem is that we have a number of first team regulars who are away at that time with their countries.

A victim of our own success I suppose.

Therefore, as I see it, the only time that the type of intense instruction needed to learn those skills can be given is in pre season, hence my call for patience.
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this is a grate reminder mate that its not all about what we see in the 100 mins on the pich. its what we dont see. and somtimes forget (well were all geting older😉). but. (here it comes again) i dont think you can put it all down to "doesn't leave a lot of time" ect for them to do other than the basic fitnes an all that. as we used to sey. theres no such thing as bad roads just bad planing.

i meen i get it. its the modern game. eleet athleets. watch out for injurys and all that. but surly theyve got to put into there trg the ol clasroom work. i meen whats the point of all them stats peeple. vids. data. computor models ect if the pleyers are not given all the info the trg staff have. i mite be a milleon miles awey but if they sacrefice class work for trg ground work then. for me. its not compleet.

i no the days of a blackbord and chalk just before the game are well gone. (give me the ball and i will do this. this. this. this and then this. goal. Pele😉) but if the pleyers are geting it so rong then time has to be made to to show them. or are they to delecate to be told of theese deys.
also. and i no there young. but we realy shuldnt be teeching them new skils. there profeseonal footbalers on a nice little erner and even at this level (and age) i wuld expect. nay demand. that they have them skils alredy. what i wuld expect are pleyers to do is invest in there career them selfs. practice. practice. practice. i remember watching a prog about beckham were it showed he steyed. sometimes up to 2 hours. after traning to practice his dead ball kicks from all over the park. he sed other pleyers did sommart similar.

so maybe beter time planing on the staff part. maybe more class work looking at were it went rong (and were it went rite) and more investment of there own time honing there own skills when there told to brush them up. fooks sake we pey em enuf. if some pleyers dont want to do this and just put in a normal shift then go home. then there not the profeseonals we want at are club and they can feck of.

but to finish mate. im reely glad you rote about this.its gonna give me sommart to look into and bring meself up to speed now ive plenty time on me hands.😉
 
BrickLatic said:
...also. and i no there young. but we realy shuldnt be teeching them new skils. there profeseonal footbalers on a nice little erner and even at this level (and age) i wuld expect. nay demand. that they have them skils alredy. ...........

......... fooks sake we pey em enuf. if some pleyers dont want to do this and just put in a normal shift then go home. then there not the profeseonals we want at are club and they can feck of. ...😉
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You make some good points Brick, and maybe in an ideal world, you're right ... but in the world of inheriting a squad of the high earners we couldn't get rid of, together with the best remaining in the academy (complemented of course by various frees and loanees) the manager and coaching staff are having to work with what they've got.

Performance wise, sometimes they've got it right, and admittedly, at least as often, they've been less successful.

Results-wise though, they're probably doing what most fans wanted/expected of them.

Most likely (as has already been said by others ... repeatedly !) a significant number will indeed be fecking off in the summer. These will be replace by other frees, loanees and maybe even a purchase or two, but they will all be Maloney's signings. I expect him to be bringing in the type of player he wants ... the type who can play in the style he wants, they type who'll be comfortable fulfilling the riles he wants.

If we're still playing dirge-like football next Autumn, then I'll fully understand fans being critical of him (and will maybe even join in a little myself), but until then, I see a mid table position, a form table that shows 3 wins in the last 5 and a points target that's almost in reach.

Mid table mediocrity almost achieved !
 
BrickLatic said:
this is a grate reminder mate that its not all about what we see in the 100 mins on the pich. its what we dont see. and somtimes forget (well were all geting older😉). but. (here it comes again) i dont think you can put it all down to "doesn't leave a lot of time" ect for them to do other than the basic fitnes an all that. as we used to sey. theres no such thing as bad roads just bad planing.

i meen i get it. its the modern game. eleet athleets. watch out for injurys and all that. but surly theyve got to put into there trg the ol clasroom work. i meen whats the point of all them stats peeple. vids. data. computor models ect if the pleyers are not given all the info the trg staff have. i mite be a milleon miles awey but if they sacrefice class work for trg ground work then. for me. its not compleet.

i no the days of a blackbord and chalk just before the game are well gone. (give me the ball and i will do this. this. this. this and then this. goal. Pele😉) but if the pleyers are geting it so rong then time has to be made to to show them. or are they to delecate to be told of theese deys.
also. and i no there young. but we realy shuldnt be teeching them new skils. there profeseonal footbalers on a nice little erner and even at this level (and age) i wuld expect. nay demand. that they have them skils alredy. what i wuld expect are pleyers to do is invest in there career them selfs. practice. practice. practice. i remember watching a prog about beckham were it showed he steyed. sometimes up to 2 hours. after traning to practice his dead ball kicks from all over the park. he sed other pleyers did sommart similar.

so maybe beter time planing on the staff part. maybe more class work looking at were it went rong (and were it went rite) and more investment of there own time honing there own skills when there told to brush them up. fooks sake we pey em enuf. if some pleyers dont want to do this and just put in a normal shift then go home. then there not the profeseonals we want at are club and they can feck of.

but to finish mate. im reely glad you rote about this.its gonna give me sommart to look into and bring meself up to speed now ive plenty time on me hands.😉
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Once again I agree with almost everything you say, were I disagree is in the planning. We have to remember that the club is working with a skeleton staff this season, having lost many of the staff due to the antics of the last owners, and this must have an impact on training sessions with coaching staff having to fulfil different roles.

I don't know who we have replaced or in fact how many coaches are actually in place but I suspect that we are still in the process of filling some roles. This is surely having an effect on the work done on the training pitch in relation to what could be accomplished if all the coaches were in place.

You mention players staying behind after training and I seem to remember an article a few months ago about this in particular. Both Lang and Aasgaard were known to be spending extra time after the normal sessions practising free kicks and it was also said that other players were putting in extra sessions to increase their fitness, whilst some were doing the extra work to get back from injury.

I know all this seems to be excusing the faults that are evident in the way we play this season, but in my opinion it is relevant to understand the legacy problems that the previous ownership left.

We are well aware of how many players tore up their contracts but less is known about how many of the backroom staff did the same and once again it takes time to bring in the experienced coaching staff needed to guide the young players we have in the squad. There is no doubt in my mind that there would have been little or no chance to bring in the necessary staff to have an effect in pre season, the time when all the basic stuff is done in detail, so in effect the players are learning on the job and will have good days and bad days.

As i said earlier, I agree with you that movement and pace is lacking from the way we play, but in my opinion and I am sure that not everyone will agree, time and patience is need to allow the squad to build up to what both you and KDZ are expecting from them.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
As I say it's not so much that you see them trying to do the same things every week and it just not coming off. It's like they don't even attempt to do things they did well the week before that is bizarre.
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Once again I agree that we are inconsistent, and maybe sometimes there is a feeling that they aren't attempting to do the things they did well in previous games, but all this can be explained by the lack of experience and playing a different way to the way they were coached by previous regimes.

I would also give credit to opposition teams who are equally coached by their clubs to close down space and prevent the things that you are calling for from happening.

There are times that I think people forget that the opposition are on the pitch and are determined to stop us playing. Could it be that the opposition manager has done his homework and coached his players to counteract the movement and close down the space required by our players, causing the inexperienced players we have to perhaps panic a little and freeze.

I don't know if that is correct, but many experienced managers have previously said that inconsistency is always there in youthful squads and that there is no coaching that can make up for match experience.

Time and patience.
 
moonay said:
You make some good points Brick, and maybe in an ideal world, you're right ... but in the world of inheriting a squad of the high earners we couldn't get rid of, together with the best remaining in the academy (complemented of course by various frees and loanees) the manager and coaching staff are having to work with what they've got.

Performance wise, sometimes they've got it right, and admittedly, at least as often, they've been less successful.

Results-wise though, they're probably doing what most fans wanted/expected of them.

Most likely (as has already been said by others ... repeatedly !) a significant number will indeed be fecking off in the summer. These will be replace by other frees, loanees and maybe even a purchase or two, but they will all be Maloney's signings. I expect him to be bringing in the type of player he wants ... the type who can play in the style he wants, they type who'll be comfortable fulfilling the riles he wants.

If we're still playing dirge-like football next Autumn, then I'll fully understand fans being critical of him (and will maybe even join in a little myself), but until then, I see a mid table position, a form table that shows 3 wins in the last 5 and a points target that's almost in reach.

Mid table mediocrity almost achieved !
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i meen your rite in what you sey about trg staff having to work with what theyve got. i think what i were trying to sey is 'how' they work with what theyve got mite need looking at.
agen your rite about him not having his own tools to work with and having to mold them but sommarts missing in his mesages to them. weve both sed in are coments before about what we want is more of the same (after the posh game) then we get the shambels the game after. its as if only sean new what the game plan was and didnt give his pleyers the low down of his tactics. this were ovious by his 3 pleyer subs at half time. 2 things happen. the crowd get on his back and then the pleyers feel it. this then makes them nervy (as sombody else pointed out) mistakes hapen. confedence falls. pleyers revert to keep ball.

the other thing is. as youve sed before. we see that sean is jumping up and down shouting orders. so he is animated like youve sed. but then the pleyers seem to ether not heer or ignore it. so what is this conflict. do the pleyers not understand. dont have the confedence. or are they they mixed with pleying to the crowds frustrateon and just doing the basics.

theres one thing we'll not (sort of) agree on and that is how you alweys see are positeon. dont take umbridge now. your black and white. its a reults based game to you (and in the reel world me an all). you alweys (somtimes ritely so) refer to the form table of the last 5 games or so. but. theres to many of us who want us to pley footy the proper wey. by that i meen not by some diegram sean has seen or been coached or lernt from his past master. a lot of us part with quite a bit for are tix and not all of us have 2 or 3 penseons to rely on. its a results based game but if theres no fans turning up to watch them then theres no game at all.

upft
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
Once again I agree with almost everything you say, were I disagree is in the planning. We have to remember that the club is working with a skeleton staff this season, having lost many of the staff due to the antics of the last owners, and this must have an impact on training sessions with coaching staff having to fulfil different roles.

I don't know who we have replaced or in fact how many coaches are actually in place but I suspect that we are still in the process of filling some roles. This is surely having an effect on the work done on the training pitch in relation to what could be accomplished if all the coaches were in place.

You mention players staying behind after training and I seem to remember an article a few months ago about this in particular. Both Lang and Aasgaard were known to be spending extra time after the normal sessions practising free kicks and it was also said that other players were putting in extra sessions to increase their fitness, whilst some were doing the extra work to get back from injury.

I know all this seems to be excusing the faults that are evident in the way we play this season, but in my opinion it is relevant to understand the legacy problems that the previous ownership left.

We are well aware of how many players tore up their contracts but less is known about how many of the backroom staff did the same and once again it takes time to bring in the experienced coaching staff needed to guide the young players we have in the squad. There is no doubt in my mind that there would have been little or no chance to bring in the necessary staff to have an effect in pre season, the time when all the basic stuff is done in detail, so in effect the players are learning on the job and will have good days and bad days.

As i said earlier, I agree with you that movement and pace is lacking from the way we play, but in my opinion and I am sure that not everyone will agree, time and patience is need to allow the squad to build up to what both you and KDZ are expecting from them.
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this.
this tb is exactly what i were on about when i sed i needed to get more info. gently reminded that its not just pleyers that weve lost but the backroomers an all. this helps to join the dots when looking at the big picture.

and i no we have to disagree at times (if we didnt we wuld be putting are joint apps into the happy clapper club together😉) so my disagreement is about the paitience bit.

we have alredy seen what the teem can do. weve alredy seen that (most of them) the teem are hungry to pleese. weve alredy seen pressing moves. good attaking pley. long cross ball pley. opening up defences. proper footy at times. we saw it at the posh game.

my questeon is. what changes
 
I don't think I've been accused of being black or white before Brick, so there's a first !

I recall during the tenure of previous managers pointing to the performance in games when results weren't going our way. I could see that playing well in a game we lost was at least a positive we could take, yet was very often shouted down that it's a results game ... often by the people arguing the opposite way now.

Given our recent churn in managers, I'm more than happy to go through a season where we don't always play great, but we occasionally show signs of doing so as long as we're getting the points to keep us safe in this league, ready to hopefully improve (in all aspects) next season.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
Once again I agree that we are inconsistent, and maybe sometimes there is a feeling that they aren't attempting to do the things they did well in previous games, but all this can be explained by the lack of experience and playing a different way to the way they were coached by previous regimes.

I would also give credit to opposition teams who are equally coached by their clubs to close down space and prevent the things that you are calling for from happening.

There are times that I think people forget that the opposition are on the pitch and are determined to stop us playing. Could it be that the opposition manager has done his homework and coached his players to counteract the movement and close down the space required by our players, causing the inexperienced players we have to perhaps panic a little and freeze.

I don't know if that is correct, but many experienced managers have previously said that inconsistency is always there in youthful squads and that there is no coaching that can make up for match experience.

Time and patience.
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Inconsistency in doing things well is understandable, inconsistency in attempting them is my concern.

Against Exeter, us not pressing as aggressively with 5 men like we did at Peterbourough was very frustrating, but it was clearly tactical based on how we set up, so that is down to managerial choices.

If our players were moving but Exeter had committed more men to the press and were pressing us much higher that would be down to the opposition.

But Peterbough and Exeter lined up to press us on goal kicks about the same, but in one game everyone was active, moving, pulling into spaces to give each other a better chance to pass and receive the ball. While against Exeter everyone was so much more static - the opposition was behaving in pretty much the same way but we were drastically less active off the ball.

I know Matt Smith wasn't playing both games and that will make some difference. But his absence shouldn't have stopped everyone else individually showing for the ball so much less. I would accept that as a team we wont be as good without him, but i wouldn't expect everyone to seemingly forget how to do what they did the week before.
 
It feels like you've made a rod for your own back KDZ. Cos you've said how highly you rate the players, you seem compelled to attribute their failures to the manager and his tactical choices ... even though that doesn't really make sense ... certainly not re the defensive shortfalls and lack of movement.

Maybe we as fans should try and analyse each performance a little less, and enjoy (or not) each game as it comes.

We play well, we play poorly, we win, we lose, we comment, we move on. :shrug:
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
Inconsistency in doing things well is understandable, inconsistency in attempting them is my concern.

Against Exeter, us not pressing as aggressively with 5 men like we did at Peterbourough was very frustrating, but it was clearly tactical based on how we set up, so that is down to managerial choices.

If our players were moving but Exeter had committed more men to the press and were pressing us much higher that would be down to the opposition.

But Peterbough and Exeter lined up to press us on goal kicks about the same, but in one game everyone was active, moving, pulling into spaces to give each other a better chance to pass and receive the ball. While against Exeter everyone was so much more static - the opposition was behaving in pretty much the same way but we were drastically less active off the ball.

I know Matt Smith wasn't playing both games and that will make some difference. But his absence shouldn't have stopped everyone else individually showing for the ball so much less. I would accept that as a team we wont be as good without him, but i wouldn't expect everyone to seemingly forget how to do what they did the week before.
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corect
and this king adresses my questeon above. key word is inconsistancy.

and also your closing line. "but i wouldn't expect everyone to seemingly forget how to do what they did the week before". comes back to my points about get em of the trg feeld and into the clasroom.
 
BrickLatic said:
i dont get how you can ask us fans to do this

but still want us fans to do this. 🤔
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Quite simple ... analyse and comment are two different words, with totally different meanings ... though maybe I should have said "over-analyse", which makes the difference even greater.
 
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