The Grim vs the Grecians | Page 12 | Vital Football

The Grim vs the Grecians

BrickLatic said:
theese are all valid points king. but. theres alweys a but. if there that nervy not to advance with the ball then there in the rong job.

if a center defender gets the ball and moves with it then it wuld follow that he draws there midfeeld to him. theres then space behind them. pley the ball into that space. at a bit of pace if nececesary. for are midfeeld to run onto without being crowded out.

if are rite or left defendece gets the ball. it then brings in there wing pleyers leeving space behind them agen.

it dont matter to me who gets the ball. whats important is for them to carry it a few yards. bring in there pleyers and create that space behind them. a good defender shuld be able to reed the movement of his midfeeld and put the ball into the space created.

i think most agree that its not rong to pley out from the back. but. the clue is in the words PLEY OUT as oposed to stop. hold. pass sideweys out.
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Yes, exactly....

Too often the ball is played out to the side with zero gain ... there players have not moved forward and the wingers are closed down, however making that 2 -3yrd move forward has to have the opposition moving to close him down which in its own right creates space... as a side issue if the ball is then played BEHIND the wingers which also so often happens then the whole move breaks down and we are back regurgitating the whole move again??? If as you say the pass after the move forward is made AHEAD of the wingers or No10's then we have momentum which so often gives decent chances ... couple that with the movement from Jordan, Martial or Jonny Smith coupled with No9's and real danger is made...
 
BrickLatic said:
theese are all valid points king. but. theres alweys a but. if there that nervy not to advance with the ball then there in the rong job.

if a center defender gets the ball and moves with it then it wuld follow that he draws there midfeeld to him. theres then space behind them. pley the ball into that space. at a bit of pace if nececesary. for are midfeeld to run onto without being crowded out.

if are rite or left defendece gets the ball. it then brings in there wing pleyers leeving space behind them agen.

it dont matter to me who gets the ball. whats important is for them to carry it a few yards. bring in there pleyers and create that space behind them. a good defender shuld be able to reed the movement of his midfeeld and put the ball into the space created.

i think most agree that its not rong to pley out from the back. but. the clue is in the words PLEY OUT as oposed to stop. hold. pass sideweys out.
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I agree but I think the thing you said there is exactly the issue

'a good defender shuld be able to reed the movement of his midfeeld and put the ball into the space created.'

Too often there is zero movement to read and that is the problem.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I agree but I think the thing you said there is exactly the issue

'a good defender shuld be able to reed the movement of his midfeeld and put the ball into the space created.'

Too often there is zero movement to read and that is the problem.
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i supose thats the point i were making in my post king.
if the defenders are holding the ball and the opositeon is marking the midfeeld tite then theres no place to pass into. there not all just standing still theyve got man on. the opositeon will let us have the ball all dey if were doing nowt with it.

when i sed reeding the movement of his midfeeld. that wuld be draw the opositeon onto the ball. create space behind them. then know wich wey the midfeeld would like to receive it. ether at pace into space. at feet. or ahead of them to run into that new space. midfeelders cant run into space thats not there. the only other opteon is the ol hospital pass and hope are lads get it furst. but they wont do that ether.

but if the defenders just stop with the ball and wate for some sort of magic to happen then its sideweys back sideweys till somebody makes an error. more often than not us.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I agree but I think the thing you said there is exactly the issue

'a good defender shuld be able to reed the movement of his midfeeld and put the ball into the space created.'

Too often there is zero movement to read and that is the problem.
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I agree totally with everything you and Brick are saying, however I am sure that you have said in other posts that this is not something that can be instilled into players in a single season.

I understand the point being made that these are basic requirements that should be drilled into players and be replicated on a regular basis but to be honest I wouldn't expect young players in their first season of L1 football to be consistent.

If they were academy players from a PL team at the same stage then that expectancy would be valid, however most of these players were let go by PL academies as they didn't meet their standards, Matt Smith being the exception who to all intents and purposes is capable of that consistency. If they were able to show that consistency then I doubt they would be with us long as teams further up the food chain would be looking to sign them.

Personally I think people are expecting too much of players like Adeeko and Scott Smith. It is after all their first taste of a full league season in L1 and if it were not for our current situation with the embargo would probably be out on loan at other clubs to gain the experience they are now getting at their home club instead.

As I said, I agree with both you and Brick and would expect that next season will bring that consistency after the young players that have stepped up this season have a full seasons experience to draw on. Patience and lower expectations are what is needed, survival is key this season and that is what everyone should be concentrating on,
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
I agree totally with everything you and Brick are saying, however I am sure that you have said in other posts that this is not something that can be instilled into players in a single season.

I understand the point being made that these are basic requirements that should be drilled into players and be replicated on a regular basis but to be honest I wouldn't expect young players in their first season of L1 football to be consistent.

If they were academy players from a PL team at the same stage then that expectancy would be valid, however most of these players were let go by PL academies as they didn't meet their standards, Matt Smith being the exception who to all intents and purposes is capable of that consistency. If they were able to show that consistency then I doubt they would be with us long as teams further up the food chain would be looking to sign them.

Personally I think people are expecting too much of players like Adeeko and Scott Smith. It is after all their first taste of a full league season in L1 and if it were not for our current situation with the embargo would probably be out on loan at other clubs to gain the experience they are now getting at their home club instead.

As I said, I agree with both you and Brick and would expect that next season will bring that consistency after the young players that have stepped up this season have a full seasons experience to draw on. Patience and lower expectations are what is needed, survival is key this season and that is what everyone should be concentrating on,
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I think it's just basic football, if your team mate has the ball you try and move into a better position to receive it. Some players will naturally be better or worse than it than others, some teams will be cleverer than others with how they train for it and some opposition will press you to make it more difficult - but i think basic movement is just part of any footballers normal game. Which is why it confuses me how static we often are, and how reluctant players are to show for each other considering the style we want to play.
 
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BrickLatic said:
i supose thats the point i were making in my post king.
if the defenders are holding the ball and the opositeon is marking the midfeeld tite then theres no place to pass into. there not all just standing still theyve got man on. the opositeon will let us have the ball all dey if were doing nowt with it.

when i sed reeding the movement of his midfeeld. that wuld be draw the opositeon onto the ball. create space behind them. then know wich wey the midfeeld would like to receive it. ether at pace into space. at feet. or ahead of them to run into that new space. midfeelders cant run into space thats not there. the only other opteon is the ol hospital pass and hope are lads get it furst. but they wont do that ether.

but if the defenders just stop with the ball and wate for some sort of magic to happen then its sideweys back sideweys till somebody makes an error. more often than not us.
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I think there are quite a lot of times when a defender (Hughes in particular) is trying to bring the ball out and draw the opposition player to the ball as you say but our midfielders stay behind the opposition player and don't move to either side to create an angle for the pass that they could. You sometimes even see our player gesturing to his team mates to show for them.
 
I’m hoping we see J Smith and Jones play as wingbacks as they can both run with the ball and get us up the pitch. If we just have one of them playing it becomes predictable and easier to cut out. I’d also like to see them playing on the side of their stronger foot (Jones on the right, J Smith on the left) so that they can get crosses in easier rather than having to cut inside or go back. With that threat either side you’d hope that if we do pass the ball across the back once we find the space out wide we’ll be able to get forward quickly.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I think it's just basic football, if your team mate has the ball you try and move into a better position to receive it. Some players will naturally be better or worse than it than others, some teams will be cleverer than others with how they train for it and some opposition will press you to make it more difficult - but i think basic movement is just part of any footballers normal game. Which is why it confuses me how static we often are, and how reluctant players are to show for each other considering the style we want to play.
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As I said, isn't this something that comes with time. Time spent in games rather than time spent on the training ground.

I don't believe you can replicate match conditions in training, you can set up drills and training exercises but you can't replicate how opposition players will react to any given situation, you can only guess.

That is why I think there are times when the younger players are confused as this was not what was predicted in training and can only be experienced in match conditions.

Which takes time.

There is also the issue of how much actual time can be spent during the season to spend on the type of drills and exercises to instil the basics into players. Time is at a premium with games coming thick and fast for most of the season, particularly if you get through a couple of cup rounds in the various competitions. Most weeks will see the team playing two games which will be followed by strength and fitness sessions, warm downs and planning sessions. It doesn't leave a lot of time to spend on actually teaching players new skills.

The time for that is during breaks in the schedule, international breaks and such like, but our problem is that we have a number of first team regulars who are away at that time with their countries.

A victim of our own success I suppose.

Therefore, as I see it, the only time that the type of intense instruction needed to learn those skills can be given is in pre season, hence my call for patience.
 
Back to the Drawing board. The old saying is the most important man is the man without the ball. Without those men moving and finding space it will never work. Of course it must be done with pace, for pace is king in the modern game. Many a game under Roberto our players seemed to be moving at a snails pace, but he got it right at the end.
 
It's against my nature to be too critical because I don't profess to be a student of the finer points of the game. I have only logic and common sense in my armoury (Open goal for someone!) but here goes:

Speed is of the essence - if Godo's and McManaman's step-overs and trickery were done in slow motion then even I could take the ball off them. It's the same with passing the ball around at the back, we do it so slowly that defenders have all the time in the world to adjust and "plug the gaps".

We have to earn that space, they wont give it to us. Only Matt Smith seems capable of creating that space in the middle of the pitch but it is much harder for him when the opposition is aware of this.

To play Shaun Maloney's system we need more than one centre back capable of bringing the ball out and picking a pass.

In mitigation, I suppose Shaun Maloney knows all this but he has to play the cards he has been dealt and his selections are made with one eye on next season. That is to say that he will have a preference for the players who will be here next season.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
As I said, isn't this something that comes with time. Time spent in games rather than time spent on the training ground.

I don't believe you can replicate match conditions in training, you can set up drills and training exercises but you can't replicate how opposition players will react to any given situation, you can only guess.

That is why I think there are times when the younger players are confused as this was not what was predicted in training and can only be experienced in match conditions.

Which takes time.

There is also the issue of how much actual time can be spent during the season to spend on the type of drills and exercises to instil the basics into players. Time is at a premium with games coming thick and fast for most of the season, particularly if you get through a couple of cup rounds in the various competitions. Most weeks will see the team playing two games which will be followed by strength and fitness sessions, warm downs and planning sessions. It doesn't leave a lot of time to spend on actually teaching players new skills.

The time for that is during breaks in the schedule, international breaks and such like, but our problem is that we have a number of first team regulars who are away at that time with their countries.

A victim of our own success I suppose.

Therefore, as I see it, the only time that the type of intense instruction needed to learn those skills can be given is in pre season, hence my call for patience.
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I really don't think it's that complicated, I think moving off the ball is just a basic fundamental of the game.

I'm not expecting every player to be Thomas Muller, but they should be making more attempts to show for the ball.
 
Watching Monday night football. Neville is co commentator. Says it’s driving him mad watching Chelsea being so slow passing it amongst the defenders and not progressing forward with tempo. ‘Sick of watching defenders pontificate on it at the back, move it forward quicker’. I can only suggest he doesn’t visit the DW anytime soon.

I said watching. I’ve had enough of this crap turgid football so will be finding summat else to watch- albeit Palace have just scored a cracker.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I really don't think it's that complicated, I think moving off the ball is just a basic fundamental of the game.

I'm not expecting every player to be Thomas Muller, but they should be making more attempts to show for the ball.
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That, as a simple starting point, would see us producing more front-foot performances (which we know we're capable of), than we are at the moment, especially at home
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I really don't think it's that complicated, I think moving off the ball is just a basic fundamental of the game.
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As you say, it feels as though that should be a fundamental skill, but I suppose if it were really that simple, then every player in every team would be doing this, competently, all of the time in every game ... at speed.
 
DRAGNET said:
Back to the Drawing board. The old saying is the most important man is the man without the ball. Without those men moving and finding space it will never work. Of course it must be done with pace, for pace is king in the modern game. Many a game under Roberto our players seemed to be moving at a snails pace, but he got it right at the end.
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We were relegated at the end. His football was dull as dishwater too.
 
daleks.at.the.monaco said:
Thought the basketball comment was about the game going attack, defend, attack, defend, attack, defend (repeat)
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Well thats football and a sight more interesting than the utter shite this fella promotes.
The tide will turn and the more I speak to fans from other clubs the more frustrated they are themselves with this style of football.
 
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