Luke Chadwick and Jason Lee

[Detritus]

Did anyone watch BBC Breakfast today and the item on Luke Chadwick? They were talking about the amount of abuse he used to get about his looks and the fact it extended from the football grounds to mainstream telly (They think it's all over). Luke is using his experience to encourage people to talk about their worries and insecurities. They then interviewed Nick Hancock, who used to present They think it's all over, and Jason Lee. Lee was talking about the abuse he used to get about his hair (again, on the Fantasy Football show on TV) and how, apparently, it fired him up and, in fact, he kept the style longer rather than look like the abuse had got to him. I can remember him playing at Priestfield for Forest and the RE singing the pineapple song at him. He just grinned and gave the thumbs up. Interesting to hear him now saying it was over the top and did have an effect on him. The main point is that the constant abuse does affect players. Chadwick said it made him, already a shy person, even more insecure. Now I know some people will say "oh, they get well paid so should be able to take a bit of stick" but when it's every game and even outside of a football stadium, is it acceptable? Is it bullying? Is there a line that should be observed when trying to put an opposing player off? I used to heckle players from the GRS but never just by being abusive (well, once, to Jason Price for winding up a ball boy after he'd scored). That said I didn't use to think the pineapple on his head song was abusive. I also have no problem with a player who has been getting stick cupping his ear/making a sshhh gesture after scoring. Thoughts?

 

[SE1_Gills]

Chadwick was best man at my mate's wedding - good guy.

 

[GillsBluenose]

I have sympathy for Chadwick but not for Lee, for the simple reason that Chadwick could not do a lot about his general appearance (acne, protruding teeth) whereas Lee chose his hairstyle, presumably as a visual statement. He could have changed it with 20 minutes in the barber if he wished but chose not to do so, which was his prerogative.

I knew he didn't like the "pineapple on his head" chants but I am not quite sure what was offensive about it. I doubt that his hairstyle was linked to his religion, for instance.

To be fair to Nick Hancock, he said he felt bad about Chadwick but assured him that if he had contacted the BBC to protest, the comments would have been dropped. A fine line between leg pulling and bullying, I suppose.

I suffered badly from Acne and one of my friends nicknamed me Herman (hence my avatar) due to my build and awkward gait but I have always embraced it and realised that people have much worse problems and challenges in life.

 

[chris who]

I have suffered from bullying like this all of my life.But these days I honestly find it a lot easier as I have found that it is largely a English thing. The eastern European staff at my work have never ever joined in the so called banter .So I spend more and more time with them.They are the ones I will miss when I am finally able to move.But it does make you better able to understand. Both my wife and a previous girlfriend had far more severe problems. The girlfriend because she was a different race having been adopted. And the wife being short and spending with unbelievably years in a boys school with about 4 other girls in a rural part of the country. She also finds is easier to make friends with those of other nations. A very sad part of our society.
My son had learning difficulties fortunately he is a really good looking lad and has grown into a fine youth man.As he has found that he can master a lot of stuff with his hands.He is a wonderful cook and is shown great talent in carpentry that he is going to pursue more after we move.He is still terribly poor at writing. So as a result of being on the short side and bottom of the class also a bit of a loner he had such serious issues.They had to expel one lad as a direct result of continued severe bullying.My son had to spent all during break times with adult members of staff in the end.For his own safety. Again it was English lads that were the guilty ones in a school with many other races.
I love my country but genuinely are very ashamed of what a fair percentage of our society find acceptable to do this.I am glad that perhaps finally Luke Chadwick might be able to start finally get it removed in part from our society in the same way race hate behaviour because of colour is slowly becoming less acceptable.
So I do totally get where Luke Chadwick is coming from and can start to understand how difficult it is for Buddha for example not because of his looks but because he chooses and clearly enjoys a different life style.In this country a lot seem to find it easy to attack those that are different.Maybe the eastern European people are different in the main because of the fact as a race many have been bullied by the Germans and Russians over the years.

 

[Buddha]

I have suffered from bullying like this all of my life.But these days I honestly find it a lot easier as I have found that it is largely a English thing. The eastern European staff at my work have never ever joined in the so called banter .So I spend more and more time with them.They are the ones I will miss when I am finally able to move.But it does make you better able to understand. Both my wife and a previous girlfriend had far more severe problems. The girlfriend because she was a different race having been adopted. And the wife being short and spending with unbelievably years in a boys school with about 4 other girls in a rural part of the country. She also finds is easier to make friends with those of other nations. A very sad part of our society.
My son had learning difficulties fortunately he is a really good looking lad and has grown into a fine youth man.As he has found that he can master a lot of stuff with his hands.He is a wonderful cook and is shown great talent in carpentry that he is going to pursue more after we move.He is still terribly poor at writing. So as a result of being on the short side and bottom of the class also a bit of a loner he had such serious issues.They had to expel one lad as a direct result of continued severe bullying.My son had to spent all during break times with adult members of staff in the end.For his own safety. Again it was English lads that were the guilty ones in a school with many other races.
I love my country but genuinely are very ashamed of what a fair percentage of our society find acceptable to do this.I am glad that perhaps finally Luke Chadwick might be able to start finally get it removed in part from our society in the same way race hate behaviour because of colour is slowly becoming less acceptable.

Sorry to hear that you, your son, your wife and ex-girlfriend have all suffered from bullying, Chris.

I am also very often embarrassed and ashamed of my fellow English people. Obviously there are loads of really decent English people but there does seem to be something a little bit 'nasty' in the character of many English people.

I too usually make friends with the East Europeans. Not sure why by they often seem much friendlier and if I'm working at a new place I tend to gravitate towards them more than I do the English. Sometimes the other English workers don't like this. One place I worked they started calling me a, "Bul-ghee lover"!

 

[SE1_Gills]

I have suffered from bullying like this all of my life.But these days I honestly find it a lot easier as I have found that it is largely a English thing. The eastern European staff at my work have never ever joined in the so called banter .So I spend more and more time with them.They are the ones I will miss when I am finally able to move.But it does make you better able to understand. Both my wife and a previous girlfriend had far more severe problems. The girlfriend because she was a different race having been adopted. And the wife being short and spending with unbelievably years in a boys school with about 4 other girls in a rural part of the country. She also finds is easier to make friends with those of other nations. A very sad part of our society.
My son had learning difficulties fortunately he is a really good looking lad and has grown into a fine youth man.As he has found that he can master a lot of stuff with his hands.He is a wonderful cook and is shown great talent in carpentry that he is going to pursue more after we move.He is still terribly poor at writing. So as a result of being on the short side and bottom of the class also a bit of a loner he had such serious issues.They had to expel one lad as a direct result of continued severe bullying.My son had to spent all during break times with adult members of staff in the end.For his own safety. Again it was English lads that were the guilty ones in a school with many other races.
I love my country but genuinely are very ashamed of what a fair percentage of our society find acceptable to do this.I am glad that perhaps finally Luke Chadwick might be able to start finally get it removed in part from our society in the same way race hate behaviour because of colour is slowly becoming less acceptable.
So I do totally get where Luke Chadwick is coming from and can start to understand how difficult it is for Buddha for example not because of his looks but because he chooses and clearly enjoys a different life style.In this country a lot seem to find it easy to attack those that are different.Maybe the eastern European people are different in the main because of the fact as a race many have been bullied by the Germans and Russians over the years.

Tell your son that Bullies are cowards and they usually behave like they do (complete pricks) because they are scared that their own insecurities might be noticed. The parents of the kid who got expelled should be ashamed of themselves.

I've got no time for bullies. None. Zip. Nada.

 

[chris who]

Sorry to hear that you, your son, your wife and ex-girlfriend have all suffered from bullying, Chris.

I am also very often embarrassed and ashamed of my fellow English people. Obviously there are loads of really decent English people but there does seem to be something a little bit 'nasty' in the character of many English people.

I too usually make friends with the East Europeans. Not sure why by they often seem much friendlier and if I'm working at a new place I tend to gravitate towards them more than I do the English. Sometimes the other English workers don't like this. One place I worked they started calling me a, "Bul-ghee lover"!

Stay safe mate .I have no experience of your life but I know my whole family would not have had to deal with even a tiny amount of what you have let alone the rest of your family and friends.
Just hope for everyone's sake that government can start to turn the tide on this and it is a tiny bit easier for the next generation.

 

[chris who]

Tell your son that Bullies are cowards and they usually behave like they do (complete pricks) because they are scared that their own insecurities might be noticed. The parents of the kid who got expelled should be ashamed of themselves.

I've got no time for bullies. None. Zip. Nada.

Thanks he is now able to deal with stuff .But I can't pretend it has been easy. He shuts himself away too much which is a shame. He is very physically strong these days and I certainly would not want to take him on one to one.He found that kick boxing was of great help although he would never attack anyone in or out of the ring.But doing the training gave him confidence. I wish we had done it earlier. I have seen him walk away from things that would make us normal people snap.He actually has stopped me fighting back verbally on more than one occasion while at the school gates. That to me shows incredible strength and maturity.

 

[chris who]

Sorry to hear that you, your son, your wife and ex-girlfriend have all suffered from bullying, Chris.

I am also very often embarrassed and ashamed of my fellow English people. Obviously there are loads of really decent English people but there does seem to be something a little bit 'nasty' in the character of many English people.

I too usually make friends with the East Europeans. Not sure why by they often seem much friendlier and if I'm working at a new place I tend to gravitate towards them more than I do the English. Sometimes the other English workers don't like this. One place I worked they started calling me a, "Bul-ghee lover"!

Strangle you say that I find the Bulgarian and Polish are the best .But also must mention the Danish worked with a few in London.Also most of the Irish and Scottish win my heart.
I can't stand people who attack people because of where they were born.
IT IS WHO YOU ARE THAT COUNTS .
if everyone dealt with the real person and not the image in their own head the world would be a better place.

 

[jokerman]

It's nothing special about the English. I'm guessing most people living and working abroad, wherever they are from, are better behaved, more polite, and all round more cautious compared to the local average for obvious reasons. It's when people are feeling comfortable and powerful, yet miserable for reasons good and bad, that they are more likely to give others a hard time.

 

[GillsBluenose]

I have suffered from bullying like this all of my life.
My son had learning difficulties fortunately he is a really good looking lad and has grown into a fine youth man. As he has found that he can master a lot of stuff with his hands. He is a wonderful cook and is shown great talent in carpentry that he is going to pursue more after we move. He is still terribly poor at writing. So as a result of being on the short side and bottom of the class also a bit of a loner he had such serious issues. They had to expel one lad as a direct result of continued severe bullying. My son had to spent all during break times with adult members of staff in the end. For his own safety. Again it was English lads that were the guilty ones in a school with many other races.

That sounds like a horrible experience for your son but give yourself credit as it seems that you keep his spirits up and I am sure that your encouragement is helping him to prove what he is good at and what a wonderful young man he is. It is so important to focus on the positives when you are first making your way in the world.

Regarding the original subject, both "They think it is all over" and "Fantasy Football" were shown at prime time and were very popular for many years. Many players were the butt of the humour, including the late Jeff Astle who used to appear at the end of Fantasy Football to sing a song. I never regarded it as bullying like lads ganging up on a vulnerable boy at School. I suppose it is all about perception until someone makes it clear that they do not appreciate the joke and do not want it to carry on.

 

[Buddha]

It's nothing special about the English. I'm guessing most people living and working abroad, wherever they are from, are better behaved, more polite, and all round more cautious compared to the local average for obvious reasons. It's when people are feeling comfortable and powerful, yet miserable for reasons good and bad, that they are more likely to give others a hard time.

That's fair enough, jokerman, but how do you explain the behaviour of the English abroad? That's often when they're (we're) at their (our) worst!

Football fans are a good example. Contrast how the English behave with how the Scots behave, for instance. The English get pissed and are rude, obnoxious and then violent. The Scots get pissed and make friends. They're welcome back, the English often are not.

But it's not just football fans. I'm generalising, obviously, and there is good and bad everywhere, but the behaviour of English people when abroad so often makes me cringe. Expecting everyone else to speak English when they themselves know, if you're lucky, only a few foreign words. Expecting egg and chips and not willing to even try. 'that foreign muck'. Basically expecting everything to be English, only with sunshine!

I think many English people think they're somehow better than people from other countries, and I reckon it's got something to do with our history.

Here in England I've often experienced people being rude and xenophobic to those from other countries but when I'm abroad people seem more friendly. I understand that this is just a perception but there's something in it. Sometimes, when I'm abroad, I choose to tell people that I am from Wales because I'm too embarrassed to tell them I'm English!

 

[chris who]

That's fair enough, jokerman, but how do you explain the behaviour of the English abroad? That's often when they're (we're) at their (our) worst!

Football fans are a good example. Contrast how the English behave with how the Scots behave, for instance. The English get pissed and are rude, obnoxious and then violent. The Scots get pissed and make friends. They're welcome back, the English often are not.

But it's not just football fans. I'm generalising, obviously, and there is good and bad everywhere, but the behaviour of English people when abroad so often makes me cringe. Expecting everyone else to speak English when they themselves know, if you're lucky, only a few foreign words. Expecting egg and chips and not willing to even try. 'that foreign muck'. Basically expecting everything to be English, only with sunshine!

I think many English people think they're somehow better than people from other countries, and I reckon it's got something to do with our history.

Here in England I've often experienced people being rude and xenophobic to those from other countries but when I'm abroad people seem more friendly. I understand that this is just a perception but there's something in it. Sometimes, when I'm abroad, I choose to tell people that I am from Wales because I'm too embarrassed to tell them I'm English!

Spot on mate 100%.Unless we can stop this happening we will very shortly find we are the the odd looking little boy in the corner .With every other country making jokes at our expense.I am glad that many people are starting to realise what I have been thinking is true.
We are a great country with a fantastic history but it is about time we started rightly the wrongs not bragging about them.Every country has is bad eggs it is just ours are some how given a crown and we treat them like kings .They get a following even like that Dick head Robinson.

 

[jokerman]

That's fair enough, jokerman, but how do you explain the behaviour of the English abroad? That's often when they're (we're) at their (our) worst!

Football fans are a good example. Contrast how the English behave with how the Scots behave, for instance. The English get pissed and are rude, obnoxious and then violent. The Scots get pissed and make friends. They're welcome back, the English often are not.

But it's not just football fans. I'm generalising, obviously, and there is good and bad everywhere, but the behaviour of English people when abroad so often makes me cringe. Expecting everyone else to speak English when they themselves know, if you're lucky, only a few foreign words. Expecting egg and chips and not willing to even try. 'that foreign muck'. Basically expecting everything to be English, only with sunshine!

I think many English people think they're somehow better than people from other countries, and I reckon it's got something to do with our history.

Here in England I've often experienced people being rude and xenophobic to those from other countries but when I'm abroad people seem more friendly. I understand that this is just a perception but there's something in it. Sometimes, when I'm abroad, I choose to tell people that I am from Wales because I'm too embarrassed to tell them I'm English!

I would never pretend not to be English. I'm happy to take credit when we get it right, and I'll take the stick, try to explain, or push back, when people think we've got it wrong. That's the deal.

I think people from all countries lurch back and forth between why are we/they so great and why are we/they so awful. I've sat around the table over beers with American, Irish, and English relatives doing this to themselves. And each nation thinks itself exceptional in these terms as well. Why are we so useless? Why are we always running ourselves down? Why do we do this more than anyone else?

I think there is a measure of self-hate in the way the English press covers our own "scum," although the England football supporter phenomenon has fed itself on that and is real. Some of it might be post-imperial arrogance, but the English were always known as fierce, simple batterers, whatever way they were pointed. We didn't just talk our way into an Empire and we didn't just talk our way out of others taking us over. Look at how most of us on here enjoy a hint of the hoolie in supporting our own team.

Where I live, people assume the English to be clever, reliable, polite, shrewd, cynical, and not quite serious. They are puzzled by how hung up on class we seem to be -and to be fair- we often do tend to talk in terms of a natural aristocracy of the right sort of people and the wrong sort of people along all sorts of social dimensions -just look at how we praise and rubbish on the 1960 music thread.

My American friends traveling in Britain are invariably impressed by how friendly and helpful the locals are. Some, despite their antecedents, quietly say they had a better time in England than in Scotland and Ireland. The horror!

And, of course, to balance every few weeks of English embarrassment around international football, there is a world of power, wealth, culture both high and low, and innovation into which the English have disproportionately inserted themselves.

We're ok, and it's ok to like ourselves.

 

[Detritus]

Regarding the original subject, both "They think it is all over" and "Fantasy Football" were shown at prime time and were very popular for many years. Many players were the butt of the humour, including the late Jeff Astle who used to appear at the end of Fantasy Football to sing a song. I never regarded it as bullying like lads ganging up on a vulnerable boy at School. I suppose it is all about perception until someone makes it clear that they do not appreciate the joke and do not want it to carry on.

Think the difference is that Jeff Astle was happy to play along with a joke. Chadwick was never consulted about his "treatment" which was merciless and aimed at the way he looked.

 

[chris who]

Think the difference is that Jeff Astle was happy to play along with a joke. Chadwick was never consulted about his "treatment" which was merciless and aimed at the way he looked.

And it would go without saying that Frank Skinner is a massive fan of the guy as a footballer .I don't need to look that up.

 

[Buddha]

I would never pretend not to be English. I'm happy to take credit when we get it right, and I'll take the stick, try to explain, or push back, when people think we've got it wrong. That's the deal.

I think people from all countries lurch back and forth between why are we/they so great and why are we/they so awful. I've sat around the table over beers with American, Irish, and English relatives doing this to themselves. And each nation thinks itself exceptional in these terms as well. Why are we so useless? Why are we always running ourselves down? Why do we do this more than anyone else?

I think there is a measure of self-hate in the way the English press covers our own "scum," although the England football supporter phenomenon has fed itself on that and is real. Some of it might be post-imperial arrogance, but the English were always known as fierce, simple batterers, whatever way they were pointed. We didn't just talk our way into an Empire and we didn't just talk our way out of others taking us over. Look at how most of us on here enjoy a hint of the hoolie in supporting our own team.

Where I live, people assume the English to be clever, reliable, polite, shrewd, cynical, and not quite serious. They are puzzled by how hung up on class we seem to be -and to be fair- we often do tend to talk in terms of a natural aristocracy of the right sort of people and the wrong sort of people along all sorts of social dimensions -just look at how we praise and rubbish on the 1960 music thread.

My American friends traveling in Britain are invariably impressed by how friendly and helpful the locals are. Some, despite their antecedents, quietly say they had a better time in England than in Scotland and Ireland. The horror!

And, of course, to balance every few weeks of English embarrassment around international football, there is a world of power, wealth, culture both high and low, and innovation into which the English have disproportionately inserted themselves.

We're ok, and it's ok to like ourselves.

I don't pretend I'm not English, I just sometimes choose to tell people I'm Welsh! Ok, it's not strictly true, but there is truth in it. If I had been good enough I could have played football for the Welsh because I am a quarter Welsh. (And that's why I support the Welsh in rugby, I'm sure I've explained that one before!)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The point that you make about people from all countries lurching back and forth between why they're great and why they're awful is almost certainly true.

And yes, there are most definitely things about being English which fill me with pride. However, that doesn't prevent me from also feeling shame and embarrassment about other aspects of being English. The things that Chris spoke of in his post did definitely strike a chord with me. I've often thought that there is something about the English character that is a bit fucked up; an air of arrogance and superiority that isn't so apparent on the continent (apart from perhaps the French!).

I think you American friends are right about us being obsessed with the class system. We are, and understandably so, imo anyway. It's fashionable these days for people to dismiss the importance of the class system - and it's certainly true that class is n't so easily defined or immediately obvious as it once was - but it's still there and it is pretty much pervasive no matter how much anyone tries to deny it.

You know that I'm no fan of nationalism but I've no problem with patriotism so long as it doesn't veer into jingoism or xenophobia. I'm English working class and proud of that. But I'm also often embarrassed and ashamed by the way in which the English working class behave, especially when they're guests in another country. I really honestly do believe that this has much to do with our imperial past.

For too long the English working class were completely shat upon (you only have to read Engels to get an idea of the hideous conditions in which the working class were formed) and all they ever really had was this spurious notion that England (or Britain, if you prefer) is the greatest nation on earth. A belief (based upon a lie) that even if you're at the very bottom of the social scale here, you're still better, just by virtue of birthplace, than johnny bloody foreigner. It was this notion, I think, that created your archetypal right-wing racist that was so wonderfully mocked by Warren Mitchell when playing Alf Garnett. The most revealing thing of all was that Mitchell so often received adoration from working class people because they loved everything Alf stood for. This was something that depressed both Mitchell and Speight deeply. The fact that the objects of the piss take didn't even realise they were having the piss taken out of them, they just thought he was great because he said it how it was!

There is definitely something a bit nasty about us. But we can't help it. And, as you rightly say, it isn't all bad, we do have some redeeming qualities.

 

[jokerman]

Co

I don't pretend I'm not English, I just sometimes choose to tell people I'm Welsh! Ok, it's not strictly true, but there is truth in it. If I had been good enough I could have played football for the Welsh because I am a quarter Welsh. (And that's why I support the Welsh in rugby, I'm sure I've explained that one before!)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The point that you make about people from all countries lurching back and forth between why they're great and why they're awful is almost certainly true.

And yes, there are most definitely things about being English which fill me with pride. However, that doesn't prevent me from also feeling shame and embarrassment about other aspects of being English. The things that Chris spoke of in his post did definitely strike a chord with me. I've often thought that there is something about the English character that is a bit fucked up; an air of arrogance and superiority that isn't so apparent on the continent (apart from perhaps the French!).

I think you American friends are right about us being obsessed with the class system. We are, and understandably so, imo anyway. It's fashionable these days for people to dismiss the importance of the class system - and it's certainly true that class is n't so easily defined or immediately obvious as it once was - but it's still there and it is pretty much pervasive no matter how much anyone tries to deny it.

You know that I'm no fan of nationalism but I've no problem with patriotism so long as it doesn't veer into jingoism or xenophobia. I'm English working class and proud of that. But I'm also often embarrassed and ashamed by the way in which the English working class behave, especially when they're guests in another country. I really honestly do believe that this has much to do with our imperial past.

For too long the English working class were completely shat upon (you only have to read Engels to get an idea of the hideous conditions in which the working class were formed) and all they ever really had was this spurious notion that England (or Britain, if you prefer) is the greatest nation on earth. A belief (based upon a lie) that even if you're at the very bottom of the social scale here, your still better, just by virtue of birthplace, than johnny bloody foreigner. It was this notion, I think, that created your archetypal right-wing racist that was so wonderfully mocked by Warren Mitchell when playing Alf Garnett. The most revealing thing of all was that Mitchell so often received adoration from working class people because they loved everything Alf stood for. This was something that depressed both Mitchell and Speight deeply. The fact that the objects of the piss take didn't even realise they were having the piss taken out of them, they just thought he was great because he said it how it was!

There is definitely something a bit nasty about us. But we can't help it. And, as you rightly say, it isn't all bad, we do have some redeeming qualities.

Conor Cruise O'Brien divided the nations into gloaters and brooders. The English, the Poles, the Hungarians, and the Serbs as gloaters eg, seeing themselves a cut above and born to rule, the Irish, Welsh, Mexicans, and Jews as brooders eg, seeing themselves as put upon, pushed around and not feeling obliged to play to the same rules and keep their end up. This is an oversimplification, of course. The same people can be brooders in one context and gloaters in another. The Serbs played ball with us in the Balkans because they wanted to be treated as part of the club, but they treated their neighbors as cowards (Croats), traitors (Bosniacs), and not really existing (Macedonians).
The Chinese are currently experiencing a return to their historic role as gloaters after a brief interlude (by their standards) as brooders. It's really tricky when a people see themselves as gloaters, born to rule, and everyone else sees them as brooders. That's what annoys the Poles about the Germans -don't you dare treat us like Cezchs and Slovaks. The Americans are gloaters so long as its easy.

You can do it with football teams, as well. Gillingham, obviously, are gloaters......

 

[chris who]

I don't pretend I'm not English, I just sometimes choose to tell people I'm Welsh! Ok, it's not strictly true, but there is truth in it. If I had been good enough I could have played football for the Welsh because I am a quarter Welsh. (And that's why I support the Welsh in rugby, I'm sure I've explained that one before!)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The point that you make about people from all countries lurching back and forth between why they're great and why they're awful is almost certainly true.

And yes, there are most definitely things about being English which fill me with pride. However, that doesn't prevent me from also feeling shame and embarrassment about other aspects of being English. The things that Chris spoke of in his post did definitely strike a chord with me. I've often thought that there is something about the English character that is a bit fucked up; an air of arrogance and superiority that isn't so apparent on the continent (apart from perhaps the French!).

I think you American friends are right about us being obsessed with the class system. We are, and understandably so, imo anyway. It's fashionable these days for people to dismiss the importance of the class system - and it's certainly true that class is n't so easily defined or immediately obvious as it once was - but it's still there and it is pretty much pervasive no matter how much anyone tries to deny it.

You know that I'm no fan of nationalism but I've no problem with patriotism so long as it doesn't veer into jingoism or xenophobia. I'm English working class and proud of that. But I'm also often embarrassed and ashamed by the way in which the English working class behave, especially when they're guests in another country. I really honestly do believe that this has much to do with our imperial past.

For too long the English working class were completely shat upon (you only have to read Engels to get an idea of the hideous conditions in which the working class were formed) and all they ever really had was this spurious notion that England (or Britain, if you prefer) is the greatest nation on earth. A belief (based upon a lie) that even if you're at the very bottom of the social scale here, you're still better, just by virtue of birthplace, than johnny bloody foreigner. It was this notion, I think, that created your archetypal right-wing racist that was so wonderfully mocked by Warren Mitchell when playing Alf Garnett. The most revealing thing of all was that Mitchell so often received adoration from working class people because they loved everything Alf stood for. This was something that depressed both Mitchell and Speight deeply. The fact that the objects of the piss take didn't even realise they were having the piss taken out of them, they just thought he was great because he said it how it was!

There is definitely something a bit nasty about us. But we can't help it. And, as you rightly say, it isn't all bad, we do have some redeeming qualities.

Spot on again mate.My wife revealed this evening that her and her sister who both travelled widely (hence the tanned look that my sister in law still has) as youngsters often convinced other people when travelling they were french as they both speak it fluently. Such was the shame. I think this mainly happened during Spain's world cup tournament.

 

[timnolongerinbrisban]

I don't pretend I'm not English, I just sometimes choose to tell people I'm Welsh! Ok, it's not strictly true, but there is truth in it. If I had been good enough I could have played football for the Welsh because I am a quarter Welsh. (And that's why I support the Welsh in rugby, I'm sure I've explained that one before!)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The point that you make about people from all countries lurching back and forth between why they're great and why they're awful is almost certainly true.

And yes, there are most definitely things about being English which fill me with pride. However, that doesn't prevent me from also feeling shame and embarrassment about other aspects of being English. The things that Chris spoke of in his post did definitely strike a chord with me. I've often thought that there is something about the English character that is a bit fucked up; an air of arrogance and superiority that isn't so apparent on the continent (apart from perhaps the French!).

I think you American friends are right about us being obsessed with the class system. We are, and understandably so, imo anyway. It's fashionable these days for people to dismiss the importance of the class system - and it's certainly true that class is n't so easily defined or immediately obvious as it once was - but it's still there and it is pretty much pervasive no matter how much anyone tries to deny it.

You know that I'm no fan of nationalism but I've no problem with patriotism so long as it doesn't veer into jingoism or xenophobia. I'm English working class and proud of that. But I'm also often embarrassed and ashamed by the way in which the English working class behave, especially when they're guests in another country. I really honestly do believe that this has much to do with our imperial past.

For too long the English working class were completely shat upon (you only have to read Engels to get an idea of the hideous conditions in which the working class were formed) and all they ever really had was this spurious notion that England (or Britain, if you prefer) is the greatest nation on earth. A belief (based upon a lie) that even if you're at the very bottom of the social scale here, you're still better, just by virtue of birthplace, than johnny bloody foreigner. It was this notion, I think, that created your archetypal right-wing racist that was so wonderfully mocked by Warren Mitchell when playing Alf Garnett. The most revealing thing of all was that Mitchell so often received adoration from working class people because they loved everything Alf stood for. This was something that depressed both Mitchell and Speight deeply. The fact that the objects of the piss take didn't even realise they were having the piss taken out of them, they just thought he was great because he said it how it was!

There is definitely something a bit nasty about us. But we can't help it. And, as you rightly say, it isn't all bad, we do have some redeeming qualities.

I rarely post on anything other than football, but this post summed up pretty much everything I think and feel about being British.

Apart from the Welsh bit....