Covid, Phase II. Commonsense is the order of the day.

[Spursex]

We truly did everything we could ?

I'm not having that.

Not many are.

Many didn't believe the dire warnings at the start of this thing, and there were many many here who thought we were over-reacting and was 'no worse than flu' - Big Chiv and Hari Kari led that charge and even when the deaths were emerging, they and others poo-poo'd them as 'exaggerated' and 'not real' then it was and that any restrictions were OTT and not necessary...and on and on...

The funny thing now all those who opposed the original lockdown or thought it was panic-measures, are now the ones accusing the government of acting too slow or making too many wrong decisions - even if they were led by scientists.

Some things the government were warned that if they didn't do in respect of freedoms, then half the country would go into a mental breakdown, parents and half the political classes were screaming for a return of schooling - they exact same ones who now don't want to see them returned..

The eat out to help out, I enjoyed it and interestingly were one of the safest outlets statistically you could attend. But the rules were flaunted more and more, track and trace when it did come was purposely ignored in the hospitality centres, i.e. pubs etc as they didn't want their businesses closed down - after a lot of investigation it's now estimated that less than 1:20 establishments made clients check-in., but that's businesses for you, I understand why they put their own needs first, but of course can't agree with it.

So track and trace simply didn't take into account the behaviour of the majority of businesses and people ..and all choose to cheat.

And all while this was going on, business groups were screaming at the government that without a return to work, the end of the world was at hand.

The government in all this time have tried to keep as much of the economy open as they cam, some would say recklessly so with tools that weren't strong enough or rigidly enforced enough.

So I still believe that hindsight is a poweful tool and only when we start heading out of this once and for all should a royal commission sit to investigate all that went right all that went wrong.

And it needs to utterly comprehensive with interim reports.

 

[Spursex]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but surely as an island we could have followed Australia and New Zealand and locked it all down last year .....100k deaths is beyond belief!

It really isn't. It was also possible, the first-ever forecast was 500,000 deaths, then 250,000 and then 100k and then some who believed 20,000 would be the limit.

 

[Greavswasthegreatest]

Ist is. Predictions v actiual eh! So what was the prediction v actuals for Australia and New Zealand then? Deaths to date are 909 and 5 respectively for A and N tells a story about approach.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

It really isn't. It was also possible, the first-ever forecast was 500,000 deaths, then 250,000 and then 100k and then some who believed 20,000 would be the limit.

Boris could have looked at the lockdowns in other countries like China etc and gone down the extreme route. I would have. We were even told masks made no difference basically because the nhs didnt have any.

So his statement was a lie, not even close, he couldn't justify . Workplaces, public transport, pubs, clubs and restaurants, non essential shops, schools and so on, all allowed to carry on. Travel freedom by road, airports open etc.

We did everything we could, come on Boris, that's not true. In a court of law , I wonder how some individuals stand on this. ?

 

[Spursex]

Boris could have looked at the lockdowns in other countries like China etc and gone down the extreme route. I would have. We were even told masks made no difference basically because the nhs didnt have any.

So his statement was a lie, not even close, he couldn't justify . Workplaces, public transport, pubs, clubs and restaurants, non essential shops, schools and so on, all allowed to carry on. Travel freedom by road, airports open etc.

We did everything we could, come on Boris, that's not true. In a court of law , I wonder how some individuals stand on this. ?

No that's not true; the prevailing scientific evidence hadn't found any support in science up to that point for the efficacy of wearing masks - it was the WHO report that was an amalgam and study of 20 different reports that changed that advice - this was some considerable time after this all started, it had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever if the NHS did or didn't have masks, the advice changed when the WHO changed their stance.

I'm glad you're not prosecuting him as he'd get dismissed and found not guilty on a statement of fact before you started!!

Remember the government was being led by scientific advice, even if people like I you or anyone else believed it could make a difference, we had no empirical evidence, just a suspicion., when the scientific community changed its view, everyone else did.

There's plenty of other decisions we can question without having to make stuff up to hang him.

 

[Spursex]

here's a reference to the changed advice and when:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/52200989

Coronavirus: What's the latest advice about wearing masks?

31 Jul 202031 July 2020
Last updated at 13:28


View Comments (178)

Alamy
People in England and Scotland now have to wear face coverings if they are travelling on public transport or going into shops.
In Wales and Northern Ireland, they must be worn on public transport.
People who don't do this could be fined.
It doesn't have to be a medical mask - they should be for health workers who are dealing with patients. Health experts say a fabric covering, like a scarf, can be used by the general public.
Advice from the World Health Organization (WHO), which is in charge of spreading health information around the globe, is that face coverings should be worn in busy areas if social distancing is not possible.
That's because the latest scientific studies show face coverings can help to reduce the spread of coronavirus.

No 10
Tips
How to make your own face covering

Getty Images
WHO and PHE are always investigating whether wearing faces masks is useful

WHO advice has changed
The WHO had previously said there was no evidence to suggest masks could help stop coronavirus spreading.
It had claimed people wearing masks would take less care of other important measures to combat the virus, such as washing hands.
But it changed its advice in early June because there was newer evidence which showed covering your face can help provide a barrier to "infectious droplets" passing from person to person in busy areas.
The organisation now recommends that people wear non-medical face coverings on public transport and in work environments where space is limited, making it more difficult to social distance.
Those over 60 with underlying health conditions are also being encouraged to wear masks if they're unable to social distance.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

No that's not true; the prevailing scientific evidence hadn't found any support in science up to that point for the efficacy of wearing masks - it was the WHO report that was an amalgam and study of 20 different reports that changed that advice - this was some considerable time after this all started, it had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever if the NHS did or didn't have masks, the advice changed when the WHO changed their stance.

I'm glad you're not prosecuting him as he'd get dismissed and found not guilty on a statement of fact before you started!!

Remember the government was being led by scientific advice, even if people like I you or anyone else believed it could make a difference, we had no empirical evidence, just a suspicion., when the scientific community changed its view, everyone else did.

There's plenty of other decisions we can question without having to make stuff up to hang him.

So why did I go out immediately and buy the best masks available within days of learning of the virus. ? Because I saw other countries wearing them and I couldnt understand why they had no benefit, they are a barrier, mine in particular being about as good as you can get.

I didnt mention taking Boris to court. I asked how some individuals stood, like those who said masks didnt work , be they scientists or govt advisors.

 

[Spursex]

So why did I go out immediately and buy the best masks available within days of learning of the virus. ? Because I saw other countries wearing them and I couldnt understand why they had no benefit, they are a barrier, mine in particular being about as good as you can get.

I didnt mention taking Boris to court. I asked how some individuals stood, like those who said masks didnt work , be they scientists or govt advisors.

You did because you took a personal decision, just as I urged people to do here.

The government was being told by SAGE that maks made no difference because that what the WHO was telling them, until they didn't and the advice changed and so we did to.

You implied directly that he'd made a wrong decision, he didn't, he was following the advice he was being given, which we all now know was wrong.

"So his statement was a lie, not even close, he couldn't justify ."


Clearly, you owe him an apology over this issue, he didn't lie.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

You did because you took a personal decision, just as I urged people to do here.

The government was being told by SAGE that maks made no difference because that what the WHO was telling them, until they didn't and the advice changed and so we did to.

You implied directly that he'd made a wrong decision, he didn't, he was following the advice he was being given, which we all now know was wrong.

"So his statement was a lie, not even close, he couldn't justify ."


Clearly, you owe him an apology over this issue, he didn't lie.

His lie statement encompasses many failed attempts at curbing the virus. We did everything we could is clearly a lie. He knows damn well the govt could have done more. I am saying as a whole the statement is a lie. Not the mask issue. Although I still suspect the mask issue was because we didnt have enough at the time for the NHS or care homes. If the public had clamoured for masks at that time , it would have made the situation worse.
I am prepared to accept the accusation of a conspiracy theory on the mask issue.

We did everything we could....eat out to help out....case closed, it's a lie just based on that. Better would have been...clearly we could have taken tougher measures but the economy was a consideration and we tried to balance the economy against the virus.
.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

I took a personal decision based on the specifications of the mask I bought which have filters, are multi layered and stop aerosol droplets. I could not accept that my masks offered no protection, it doesn't make sense and I am certainly not a scientist.
So the countries wearing masks were wasting their time and resources in doing so. ?
Now they say any kind of face covering helps. How can you go from a high protection industrial moisture particle filter mask down to a scarf as a spectrum and get it so wrong. ?
My brother told me my masks were useless, 3 weeks later he gets issued with 6 lesser models in Portugal and got told its mandatory. I rubbed his nose in it and he conceded he was going by the scientific advise. If scientists are wrong and thousands of people die as a result, who is culpable ?

 

[Spursex]

His lie statement encompasses many failed attempts at curbing the virus. We did everything we could is clearly a lie. He knows damn well the govt could have done more. I am saying as a whole the statement is a lie. Not the mask issue. Although I still suspect the mask issue was because we didnt have enough at the time for the NHS or care homes. If the public had clamoured for masks at that time , it would have made the situation worse.
I am prepared to accept the accusation of a conspiracy theory on the mask issue.

We did everything we could....eat out to help out....case closed, it's a lie just based on that. Better would have been...clearly we could have taken tougher measures but the economy was a consideration and we tried to balance the economy against the virus.
.

Nick,

I've posted the evidence about mask adoption - it was a globally led WHO response, so come on don't start with the conspiracy wackjob stuff. You can read the SAGE minutes and see the moment the WHO mask advice was issued how the opposition scientists amongst sage changed their advice - conjoining one issue with another is the conspiracy nutters methodology, please don't be one of them.

No one has proved there was a mask issue, from direct personal experience I know with at my NHS trust we never had any shortages, ever - of course, that doesn't mean that 100% of all clinics got what they wanted when they wanted it as post the first wave, it became crystal clear clinics were hoarding PPE and ordering far more than they could have hoped to use in a year!

PHE and the government panicked, that must is clear, it's also clear that the supplies needed to be outstripped i.e. what was in storage and they had to act fast - which I also think they managed badly, as the press was desperately trying to find examples and found very little.

Accusing him of lying where it's specilifically clear he didn't, is simply silly.

Accusing him/the government of not doing enough, may well be true (as I said those with hindsight can always make an easy call post event) but that's yet to be proved - that said he said 'he did all he could' he didn't say 'we did get every decision right' because clearly as events have unfolded, it's clear they should have made different decisions, often earlier and got many wrong from my point of view.

I think you'd do well to dismiss this mask conspiracy (as there is not a single shed of evidence for it anywhere, except what you've settled on in your mind) and understand other decisions by reading the SAGE reports, which will help show what they really got wrong is an over-reliance on their advice and should have taken greater note of those dissenting voices with the sub-groups who disagreed.

Nick I was importing Masks by the container loads, there was plenty to go around once production levels were raised, which admittedly took a couple of months,

 

[Spursex]

I took a personal decision based on the specifications of the mask I bought which have filters, are multi layered and stop aerosol droplets. I could not accept that my masks offered no protection, it doesn't make sense and I am certainly not a scientist.
So the countries wearing masks were wasting their time and resources in doing so. ?
Now they say any kind of face covering helps. How can you go from a high protection industrial moisture particle filter mask down to a scarf as a spectrum and get it so wrong. ?
My brother told me my masks were useless, 3 weeks later he gets issued with 6 lesser models in Portugal and got told its mandatory. I rubbed his nose in it and he conceded he was going by the scientific advise. If scientists are wrong and thousands of people die as a result, who is culpable ?

That's the beauty / curse of science - they won't recommend anything whilst they 'hold the do no harm' / safety first principle as their guides.

Whilst I was in Hong Kong and China and SARs was speading, at first the authority was worried it would kick start respiratory diseases and there was some significant emerging evidence of that because of the lack of (subsequently proved) hygiene by the locals and so scientists were actually advising against them for a long time - until they didn/t /// then it became a habitual ritual to wear one, which was odd when all the local scientists said it would make no difference....

 

[Nick Real Deal]

Nick,

I've posted the evidence about mask adoption - it was a globally led WHO response, so come on don't start with the conspiracy wackjob stuff. You can read the SAGE minutes and see the moment the WHO mask advice was issued how the opposition scientists amongst sage changed their advice - conjoining one issue with another is the conspiracy nutters methodology, please don't be one of them.

No one has proved there was a mask issue, from direct personal experience I know with at my NHS trust we never had any shortages, ever - of course, that doesn't mean that 100% of all clinics got what they wanted when they wanted it as post the first wave, it became crystal clear clinics were hoarding PPE and ordering far more than they could have hoped to use in a year!

PHE and the government panicked, that must is clear, it's also clear that the supplies needed to be outstripped i.e. what was in storage and they had to act fast - which I also think they managed badly, as the press was desperately trying to find examples and found very little.

Accusing him of lying where it's specilifically clear he didn't, is simply silly.

Accusing him/the government of not doing enough, may well be true (as I said those with hindsight can always make an easy call post event) but that's yet to be proved - that said he said 'he did all he could' he didn't say 'we did get every decision right' because clearly as events have unfolded, it's clear they should have made different decisions, often earlier and got many wrong from my point of view.

I think you'd do well to dismiss this mask conspiracy (as there is not a single shed of evidence for it anywhere, except what you've settled on in your mind) and understand other decisions by reading the SAGE reports, which will help show what they really got wrong is an over-reliance on their advice and should have taken greater note of those dissenting voices with the sub-groups who disagreed.

Nick I was importing Masks by the container loads, there was plenty to go around once production levels were raised, which admittedly took a couple of months,

The govt resorted to a special airlift from Turkey at one point and the masks were shite and got dumped in a warehouse. That's how desperate they were.

I'm not getting hung up on the mask issue. Boris said he genuinely believed the govt had done all they could. He is either stupid or lying. I am talking all measures, not just masks. I like Boris, I have no agenda against him.
Do you believe the govt did all they could to prevent 100,000 plus people dying ?
If not , you cant defend Boris for saying he believed they had.

 

[Spursex]

The govt resorted to a special airlift from Turkey at one point and the masks were shite and got dumped in a warehouse. That's how desperate they were.

I'm not getting hung up on the mask issue. Boris said he genuinely believed the govt had done all they could. He is either stupid or lying. I am talking all measures, not just masks. I like Boris, I have no agenda against him.
Do you believe the govt did all they could to prevent 100,000 plus people dying ?
If not , you cant defend Boris for saying he believed they had.

Nick,

that was one importer who managed to lie through his teeth, and subsequently pay the price for it - they were substandard masks.

The mask issue is important, if you start believeing in one conspiracy theory, in minutes you'll be gulping them all down - re-examine the facts, please don't let yourself slip down that rabbit hole.

Read carefully what I have said, I am NOT defending him, but nor will I accuse him of lying, the two are mutually exclusive, give the advice he got and when he got it, he may well he thinks he did all he could - but that doesn't mean he got iit ALL right - as I've said far from it, and that doesn't mean he's lying.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

Nick,

that was one importer who managed to lie through his teeth, and subsequently pay the price for it - they were substandard masks.

The mask issue is important, if you start believeing in one conspiracy theory, in minutes you'll be gulping them all down - re-examine the facts, please don't let yourself slip down that rabbit hole.

Read carefully what I have said, I am NOT defending him, but nor will I accuse him of lying, the two are mutually exclusive, give the advice he got and when he got it, he may well he thinks he did all he could - but that doesn't mean he got iit ALL right - as I've said far from it, and that doesn't mean he's lying.

Dont worry about me and conspiracy theories. I know you hate them .
The ingredients for the mask one are...

Some countries were wearing them but most thought they didnt need to.

Scientists saying they gave no protection yet hospital staff needed them.

Did we have sufficient supplies for the public to have them early on ?

Were the NHS struggling at the time the govt said the public did not need them. ?

This must be a common scenario ....a family member dies from Covid after not wearing a mask due to being advised masks were of no use. Who is culpable ? The scientists or the government for believing it ?
The family or person that died or is suffering long covid was wrongly advised. Someone has to be accountable.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

Nick,

that was one importer who managed to lie through his teeth, and subsequently pay the price for it - they were substandard masks.

The mask issue is important, if you start believeing in one conspiracy theory, in minutes you'll be gulping them all down - re-examine the facts, please don't let yourself slip down that rabbit hole.

Read carefully what I have said, I am NOT defending him, but nor will I accuse him of lying, the two are mutually exclusive, give the advice he got and when he got it, he may well he thinks he did all he could - but that doesn't mean he got iit ALL right - as I've said far from it, and that doesn't mean he's lying.

So do you think Boris is stupid to think the govt could not have done anymore than they did. ? Whatever measures were taken, there was probably a tougher option .
But so often the economy lessened the severity of measures.
We have the worst death rate in the world , did we have the toughest measures ? No, far from it.
Therefore the govt did not do all they could. Boris said he genuinely believed they had. Its either dumb or a lie. Boris is super intelligent by the way.

 

[Spursex]

Dont worry about me and conspiracy theories. I know you hate them .
The ingredients for the mask one are...

Some countries were wearing them but most thought they didnt need to.

Scientists saying they gave no protection yet hospital staff needed them.

Did we have sufficient supplies for the public to have them early on ?

Were the NHS struggling at the time the govt said the public did not need them. ?

This must be a common scenario ....a family member dies from Covid after not wearing a mask due to being advised masks were of no use. Who is culpable ? The scientists or the government for believing it ?
The family or person that died or is suffering long covid was wrongly advised. Someone has to be accountable.

It's still no grounds for dreaming up a conspiracy theory.

Just make a list of all the UN organisations, all the countries all the worlds media, all the worlds health and Politicial leaders who would have to have been 'in on it'

Seriously - the whole fcuking globe followed the same rules as the WHO was pumping out, until of course good old Trump pulled them out, but that was about money and influence .


I'll leave you to it, sorry I can't cope with this utter nonsense anymore.

 

[Spursex]

So do you think Boris is stupid to think the govt could not have done anymore than they did. ? Whatever measures were taken, there was probably a tougher option .
But so often the economy lessened the severity of measures.
We have the worst death rate in the world , did we have the toughest measures ? No, far from it.
Therefore the govt did not do all they could. Boris said he genuinely believed they had. Its either dumb or a lie. Boris is super intelligent by the way.

You really need to read /hear what he said, he did NOT lie. But there is plenty to disagree about, you're just being pedantic now Nick, so I'll leave you to stew in it.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

Boris said...I can truly tell you we did everything we could.

Does everyone agree with this statement ?

 

[Greavswasthegreatest]

Its a bit like saying best endeavours..

When I was in business I never ever said those words because it meant everything you could possibly do over and above . whatever it takes to get it done, no stone left unturned no excuses no reason for failure.....impossible.....

I always used the phrase reasonable endeavours...for obvious reasons that it is achievable as some things simply are not reasonable to achieve..