EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

[LancsGordoRoad]

Now, that’s a whole different issue.
Let’s hope that the next few years brings independence to Scotland, should the majority wish, and a united Ireland, should the majority wish.
A crazy little thing called democracy.

Difficult to argue any point against democracy but, whilst a transition to independence could pass off in Scotland without too much fuss or disturbance, it would be a very different story in Ireland. Having said that, the problem would be owned by Dublin who would probably need a (American) peacekeeping force in the North-East. Thankfully, the UK would not be invited to be part of it !

 

[Tarian]

...and under that umbrella we went from being the "sick man" of Europe to the 5th biggest global economy, but time will tell if our politicians have the ability to keep us there or make us sick again.

Economists - or more likely commentators can present data selectively.

So how about this.....(to show that EU membership provided no clear benefit.)

UK GDP Growth per person, before accession to the EEC/Common Market (1950-73) was about 2.42% p.a.

From 1973 to 2014, UK GDP per person was 1.69% p.a.
Presumably a slow-down after post war recovery.

For the USA, same period, GDP/Head was 2.45% before 1973 - and 1.65% p.a. after.
So the same slow-down,

But France + Germany from 1973 to 2014 was 1.48% p.a - so noticeably behind the UK and USA.

The "sick man of Europe" tag stemmed from a combination of:
- Faster growth in France & Germany from 1950-73 (~4.% and 5%) as they rebuilt from much greater war damage
- A climate of strikes in the 1970s
- Financial and political instability (oil-price hikes, double-digit inflation, UK hung-parliaments.)

https://www.socialeurope.eu/eu-membership-accelerate-uk-economic-growth

 

[Tarian]

I`m not knocking you, Tarian. Just cheekily implying that you could be the very man himself, by virtue of your tenacious and pertinent expression of Brexit benefits. Also, that you dropped (into a thread) your home area recently and I am aware (think i`m right) that it`s the same small area in which Mr Farage lives.

Personally, I wasn`t too bothered one way or the other about Brexit, but will admit that over time, and observing more and more of the negotiations, my views changed and had their been a second referendum i`d have voted to Leave.

And for the record, whilst I might not support things he says, if anyone in the UK deserved a gong for Achievement in the latest back-scratching awards list - it was Nigel Farage. It`s quite astonishing how one man`s conviction, fortitude and effective communication led to a referendum and ultimately political change of colossal proportions.

Anyway, Happy New Year to you.

No probs.
As I indicated, NF lives about 4 miles from me.
(Along with Gills 58), NF and I have the same MP.

We have been at the same Brexit events in Orpington, Bromley, Biggin Hill, Maidstone and a Brexit dinner at his Golf Club....
..... but that shouldn't explain what either of us has said about the EU / Brexit.

Many, (I would say most) Brexit campaigners are well-researched - but you wouldn't think it from some of the dismissive attitudes around !

None of us can predict the future with certainty.
The best we can say is "probably" (or "probably not")

Happy New Year

 

[mehmets_curlies]

Economists - or more likely commentators can present data selectively.

So how about this.....(to show that EU membership provided no clear benefit.)

UK GDP Growth per person, before accession to the EEC/Common Market (1950-73) was about 2.42% p.a.

From 1973 to 2014, UK GDP per person was 1.69% p.a.
Presumably a slow-down after post war recovery.

For the USA, same period, GDP/Head was 2.45% before 1973 - and 1.65% p.a. after.
So the same slow-down,

But France + Germany from 1973 to 2014 was 1.48% p.a - so noticeably behind the UK and USA.

The "sick man of Europe" tag stemmed from a combination of:
- Faster growth in France & Germany from 1950-73 (~4.% and 5%) as they rebuilt from much greater war damage
- A climate of strikes in the 1970s
- Financial and political instability (oil-price hikes, double-digit inflation, UK hung-parliaments.) Good

https://www.socialeurope.eu/eu-membership-accelerate-uk-economic-growth

Very good and I am sure if I found an EU supporter they could present counter arguments

 

[Tarian]

Difficult to argue any point against democracy but, whilst a transition to independence could pass off in Scotland without too much fuss or disturbance, it would be a very different story in Ireland. Having said that, the problem would be owned by Dublin who would probably need a (American) peacekeeping force in the North-East. Thankfully, the UK would not be invited to be part of it !

Agreed. Democracy is key.

If I was a Scot, I would be minded to vote for Independence......

....but as long as the SNP continue to campaign to cede any independence back to the EU (along with fishing grounds etc), it would be a huge dilemma.

As for N.I..... is the border on the wrong place ??

 

[Tarian]

Very good and I am sure if I found an EU supporter they could present counter arguments

Why do you think I prefaced with:
"Economists - or more likely commentators can present data selectively."

Euroscepticism gained traction with the Maastricht "Rebels" around 1992.

Despite growing criticism (and in the late 90's "Keep the Pound" campaign), EU-fans never bothered to commission any sort of evidential case for EU membership.
They relied on warm, fuzzy appeals like Major's nebulous "Heart of Europe" along with an establishment bias and complacency.

Meanwhile serious academic research was commissioned by the likes of the Bruges Group - and presented at their annual conference.#

Many of us would have loved to attend similar pro-EU events to try and understand their arguments - but I cannot recall any.

#
Institute for Economic Affairs
Centre for Policy Studies
Members of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee
International Lawyers
etc, etc...
Experts from Germany, Ireland, Norway, Netherlands, Denmark Czech Republic, Slovakia etc, etc .....for different perspectives.

 

[shotshy]

Difficult to argue any point against democracy but, whilst a transition to independence could pass off in Scotland without too much fuss or disturbance, it would be a very different story in Ireland. Having said that, the problem would be owned by Dublin who would probably need a (American) peacekeeping force in the North-East. Thankfully, the UK would not be invited to be part of it !

I think it fair that if both Scotland and NI decide their future lies outside of the U.K, we should overlook any leaving fee.
They should be allowed to start from fresh with our blessings.
The only reason that England and Scotland joined was because The Queen died without an heir and James vi was in line.
It should not be forever, should the people decide.
A major benefit would be not having to see Big Fat Ian Blackford on the tv.

 

[The Roone]

They should be allowed to start from fresh with our blessings.
The only reason that England and Scotland joined was because The Queen died without an heir and James vi was in line.
It should not be forever, should the people decide.
A major benefit would be not having to see Big Fat Ian Blackford on the tv.[/QUOTE]

The Act of Union was actually 1707at the initial request of the Scottish Parliament. Queen Elizabeth died in 1603 without an heir, and the thrones of England and Scotland were united, but not the countries.
The union was a financially driven act as Scotland was broke and needed assistance from England.

 

[mehmets_curlies]

Why do you think I prefaced with:
"Economists - or more likely commentators can present data selectively."

Euroscepticism gained traction with the Maastricht "Rebels" around 1992.

Despite growing criticism (and in the late 90's "Keep the Pound" campaign), EU-fans never bothered to commission any sort of evidential case for EU membership.
They relied on warm, fuzzy appeals like Major's nebulous "Heart of Europe" along with an establishment bias and complacency.

Meanwhile serious academic research was commissioned by the likes of the Bruges Group - and presented at their annual conference.#

Many of us would have loved to attend similar pro-EU events to try and understand their arguments - but I cannot recall any.

#
Institute for Economic Affairs
Centre for Policy Studies
Members of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee
International Lawyers
etc, etc...
Experts from Germany, Ireland, Norway, Netherlands, Denmark Czech Republic, Slovakia etc, etc .....for different perspectives.

Fair dos. I spent ages before the referendum tryng to make sense of the economic implications of leaving vs remaining and I struggled, tbh. I was still undecided until Farage put up his goebellesque poster. From that point on I couldn't side with leave. To this day, I despise him for sinking so low, imo.

 

[Gills 58]

Fair dos. I spent ages before the referendum tryng to make sense of the economic implications of leaving vs remaining and I struggled, tbh. I was still undecided until Farage put up his goebellesque poster. From that point on I couldn't side with leave. To this day, I despise him for sinking so low, imo.

Ditto.
Could see good arguments on both sides but when I saw who the main proponents of Leave were then it made my mind up for me.

 

[nitram77]

before Sturgeon worries about breaking from the UK, she needs to talk to the Orkney and Shetland people who are upset with Holyrood, and want to break from Scotland and become independent UK dependencies.

 

[jokerman]

Damned funny if it turns out that the patriots have opened the door to delivering a United Ireland and Gib to Spain. Takes a Nixon and that sort of thing. I do think Ireland is going to start feeling its old island behind an island syndrome again more than it’s letting on.

Ireland into the Commonwealth would smooth a path.

Just wait for the next existential EU crisis. 48 hours to save the Euro etc. It’ll be business as usual on here again. Likewise if the EU’s ever closer momentum gets going again.

 

[mehmets_curlies]

before Sturgeon worries about breaking from the UK, she needs to talk to the Orkney and Shetland people who are upset with Holyrood, and want to break from Scotland and become independent UK dependencies.

I wouldn't be so cocksure about that. The last I saw there was some saying about either becoming completely independent, joining Norway in some way or, as you say, becoming a UK dependency. The latter seemed to be the least favourite from the bits I saw. IiRC, Salmond actually guaranted them devolved status before the 2014 referendum. Perhaps Sturgeon will do the same.

 

[markinkent]

And for the record, whilst I might not support things he says, if anyone in the UK deserved a gong for Achievement in the latest back-scratching awards list - it was Nigel Farage. It`s quite astonishing how one man`s conviction, fortitude and effective communication led to a referendum and ultimately political change of colossal proportions.

Anyway, Happy New Year to you.

For full disclosure I absolutely detest Farage and all the division and hate that he stands for and promotes. However, you are absolutely correct that he deserves the plaudits for making Brexit happen not Bozo the clown. Infact the only thing that makes me smile about this whole affair is that the political establishment have completely side tracked Farage. The one thing he desperately wants is to be part of the political establishment and they have completely shunned him. I hope he feels that rejection and bitterness for the rest of his days,

 

[Jerryattrick]

I agree with many of your arguments, but a lot of what you quote has been under the umbrella of the E.U.

Name one thing i listed as being due to being in the EU. All carried out by our own government under both partys.

 

[mehmets_curlies]

For full disclosure I absolutely detest Farage and all the division and hate that he stands for and promotes. However, you are absolutely correct that he deserves the plaudits for making Brexit happen not Bozo the clown. Infact the only thing that makes me smile about this whole affair is that the political establishment have completely side tracked Farage. The one thing he desperately wants is to be part of the political establishment and they have completely shunned him. I hope he feels that rejection and bitterness for the rest of his days,

I am with you with regards to Farage. However, I think it strange that he is so on board with this deal. Makes we wonder if he's been offered something like a peerage to get him on board, but then again I can imagine Johnson wanting to sideline him even more to ensure that any "glory" sits with Johnson.

 

[valenciagill]

I absolutely detest Farage and all the division and hate that he stands for and promotes

Can you provide examples ?

I hope he feels that rejection and bitterness for the rest of his days,

From these comments Mark , I'd say you were far more at risk of 'bitterness and hatred'.
If you were to follow NF's YouTube channel , you would see he's a rather jovial chap.
He's rather enjoying Brexit too.

 

[markinkent]

I liken Farage to those people you meet in life who moan about everything but when you ask for their suggestion they respond with "thats for the management to identify".

He was an MEP for years and had the opportunity to help change it but instead was just "difficult". Some of his actions in thevEU parliament embarrassed us as a nation in my opinion. Of course to some he was a legend who stood up for little England.

We all see things differently but to me he represents the worst of what little england represents, to others he's a hero.

That's just they way it is.

We should do a house swap VG. You can come home to little england and I can live in Moraira:-)


In terms of his bitterness I was referring to the fact that the political establishment has rejected him and not recognised his significance contribution to Brexit. Similarly the electorate has rejected his desire to be a UK MP many times. That must hurt.

 

[Vambogills]

This made me chuckle from the Brexit campaigning Daily Mail.
Christ! If the EU had threatened to do all this to UK citizens, I would have campaigned to leave!!

 

[shotshy]

That’s what it means to be a normal country.
None of that is any big deal unless you are extremely hard of thinking.
After 2022, if you can’t manage to get a visa waiver, then maybe you should not be travelling abroad.
People voted for change so why should anyone be surprised by the change?