Brexit rolls on... | Page 35 | Vital Football

Brexit rolls on...

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Lienking said:
Teresa May voted Remain and certainly didn't go for a hard Brexit. She attempted to negotiate BRINO.

As for freedom of movement, there are many complexities of Brexit, but stopping freedom of movement was clearly the main motive for voting Brexit. The EU have taken a wholesale take it or leave it approach, and now don't seem to understand that the government are happy to leave it. Brexiteers have now had to win THREE elections to get this far, 2016,2017 and 2019. There was a clear party who stood on a mandate to stop Brexit in 2019, along with the likes of Soubry, and they were nearly all wiped out at the election. In Broxtowe Soubry took 4.6 thousand votes , but the Tory vote went up, and Labour lost an almost identical number of votes.
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Labour lost more remain votes than leave votes, I think I read recently.

You know as well as I do that Corbyn was a bigger issue than Brexit for labour.

Was stopping freedom of movement your main motive for voting Brexit?
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Labour lost more remain votes than leave votes, I think I read recently.

You know as well as I do that Corbyn was a bigger issue than Brexit for labour.

Was stopping freedom of movement your main motive for voting Brexit?
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I don't pretend to have studied Labour, but the Labour vote fell by 2.5 million from 2017 to 2019. Looks like the Liberal vote did actually go up by 1.2 million, but hardly a massive vote for the party who said they would definitely reverse the referendum result (a referendum they had campaigned for!) .

The ability to have our own border controls was certainly one of the main reasons I voted for Brexit. The middle class Labour ideologists are happy to state that the mass migration has no effect on zero hours workers and the low paid, but it's clear that the people actually suffering the low pay don't see things the same way, both regarding wages and housing costs.
 
i am a tree said:
Just because there are multiple different models for measuring QoL, it doesn't make the measurement useless or subjective. All the different models are quantitative and factual. Running multiple models simultaneously allows you to come to robust, scientific conclusions.

Also, I wasn't saying the definition of QoL changes over time, I was saying that a population's measured QoL changes over time in response to policy and circumstance.



There are massive differences between morals and politics. Moral judgements have little to do with whether or not something works or is effective. They simply say what an individual believes is morally right and wrong, nothing more.

I'll admit i may have overstated it, but moral judgements should be one part of decision making, and usually turn out to be counterproductive if overused.
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Didnt say they were useless but mutiple models means there is a large dollop of subjectivity.

Running multiple models only works if they are genuinely inclusive- all but impossible in practice. In any case quantitative analysis is exactly that and one should be careful about considering it as an undisputable fact.

Ultimately moral judgements can be made with regards to what is effective but people take different views. The same is true of politics- what works for you is likely to be informed by your political beliefs.

However, making moral judgements clearly have political consequences, probably the reason why jc21 considers moral and politics to be different sides of the same thing.
 
Lienking said:
I don't pretend to have studied Labour, but the Labour vote fell by 2.5 million from 2017 to 2019. Looks like the Liberal vote did actually go up by 1.2 million, but hardly a massive vote for the party who said they would definitely reverse the referendum result (a referendum they had campaigned for!) .

The ability to have our own border controls was certainly one of the main reasons I voted for Brexit. The middle class Labour ideologists are happy to state that the mass migration has no effect on zero hours workers and the low paid, but it's clear that the people actually suffering the low pay don't see things the same way, both regarding wages and housing costs.
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So in your book then, brexit success can be measured by reducing house costs and increasing wages as all the bloody foreigners go home.

Not looking good so far is it?
 
radfordinlondon said:
So in your book then, brexit success can be measured by reducing house costs and increasing wages as all the bloody foreigners go home.

Not looking good so far is it?
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What, things aren't looking good while we're still under EU rules. You can't beat giving things a chance !
 
Lienking said:
What, things aren't looking good while we're still under EU rules. You can't beat giving things a chance !
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That's funny

Whenever someone talks about any of the negative effects you say the opposite; demanding that these things haven't happened yet (like the EHIC cards for example) when when people point out that we have not actually left yet.

So which is it?
 
Pope John XXIII said:
That's funny

Whenever someone talks about any of the negative effects you say the opposite; demanding that these things haven't happened yet (like the EHIC cards for example) when when people point out that we have not actually left yet.

So which is it?
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Pope John XXIII said:
That's funny

Whenever someone talks about any of the negative effects you say the opposite; demanding that these things haven't happened yet (like the EHIC cards for example) when when people point out that we have not actually left yet.

So which is it?
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Not entirely sure what you're saying on this. We are still under EU rules and the EHIC cards are still valid. We have been through this before . They are financed by the UK not the EU. Anyone with any sense has to buy insurance anyway, so makes little diifference. Certainly doesn't stop you going anywhere. Costs the NHS a small fortune. £674 million in 2015.

https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/
 
Lienking said:
Not entirely sure what you're saying on this. We are still under EU rules and the EHIC cards are still valid. We have been through this before anyhow. They are financed by the UK not the EU. Anyone with any sense has to buy insurance anyway, so makes little diifference. Certainly doesn't stop you going anywhere. Costs the NHS a small fortune. £674 million in 2015.

https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/
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Actually, if you read up on it the loss of the EHIC cards makes quite a lot of difference.

But you can't have it both ways. You can't cry that we haven't seen the positive effects yet because we haven't left, while dismissing the negative effects as having not happened when the same reasoning applies.
 
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