Luke Chadwick and Jason Lee | Page 2 | Vital Football

Luke Chadwick and Jason Lee

Buddha said:
I don't pretend I'm not English, I just sometimes choose to tell people I'm Welsh! Ok, it's not strictly true, but there is truth in it. If I had been good enough I could have played football for the Welsh because I am a quarter Welsh. (And that's why I support the Welsh in rugby, I'm sure I've explained that one before!)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The point that you make about people from all countries lurching back and forth between why they're great and why they're awful is almost certainly true.

And yes, there are most definitely things about being English which fill me with pride. However, that doesn't prevent me from also feeling shame and embarrassment about other aspects of being English. The things that Chris spoke of in his post did definitely strike a chord with me. I've often thought that there is something about the English character that is a bit fucked up; an air of arrogance and superiority that isn't so apparent on the continent (apart from perhaps the French!).

I think you American friends are right about us being obsessed with the class system. We are, and understandably so, imo anyway. It's fashionable these days for people to dismiss the importance of the class system - and it's certainly true that class is n't so easily defined or immediately obvious as it once was - but it's still there and it is pretty much pervasive no matter how much anyone tries to deny it.

You know that I'm no fan of nationalism but I've no problem with patriotism so long as it doesn't veer into jingoism or xenophobia. I'm English working class and proud of that. But I'm also often embarrassed and ashamed by the way in which the English working class behave, especially when they're guests in another country. I really honestly do believe that this has much to do with our imperial past.

For too long the English working class were completely shat upon (you only have to read Engels to get an idea of the hideous conditions in which the working class were formed) and all they ever really had was this spurious notion that England (or Britain, if you prefer) is the greatest nation on earth. A belief (based upon a lie) that even if you're at the very bottom of the social scale here, you're still better, just by virtue of birthplace, than johnny bloody foreigner. It was this notion, I think, that created your archetypal right-wing racist that was so wonderfully mocked by Warren Mitchell when playing Alf Garnett. The most revealing thing of all was that Mitchell so often received adoration from working class people because they loved everything Alf stood for. This was something that depressed both Mitchell and Speight deeply. The fact that the objects of the piss take didn't even realise they were having the piss taken out of them, they just thought he was great because he said it how it was!

There is definitely something a bit nasty about us. But we can't help it. And, as you rightly say, it isn't all bad, we do have some redeeming qualities.
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We are so much on the same page with this but there is one more point where we disagree.
I don't believe it is a class thing at all many well to do kids and older folk are almost exactly the same. Most will not get involved in violent acts .But they do get pissed out of their heads and often take hard drugs or still worse are probably behind lot of the trafficking.Far more importantly give just as much verbal abuse as anyone else of any other class .I have seen both sides in my life .Having worked at every high class establishments including Bond street and Savoy Row among many others .I also have family contacts who live in these circles not that we see them anymore. One household is the exception to that. Strangely similar to Arthur and his family and small group of real friends in "The English game" series.There are good and bad in every part of our society.Fortunately the good still out number the scum.But the scum are all to often cheered on by people who should no better. Because they have a bit of the Alf Garnett in them and like to be seen as a supporter of the English master race.Those people are from all walks of life. They probably represent the biggest group and the group that we must try to change. I point to Prince Harry and Meghan as a example of how there is just as much bigotry and hatefulness in high places. The hatred towards them was not from the working classes.
 
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Why is it acceptable to make jibes about people's appearance. At Bristol Rovers this season one of our supporters yelled at one of their players "book him, he's f****** ginger". Someone of mature age. Acceptable, no. Bullying yes. That is a human being on the end of that. Many of our own supporters have red hair.

What if someone had a different appearance rather than hair colour, protruding teeth or acne? Luke Chadwick for example.

Name calling is not acceptable. What are you in the playground. Are you 12?

We should all reflect on what Chadwick says and take responsibility.
 
chris who said:
We are so much on the same page with this but there is one more point where we disagree.
I don't believe it is a class thing at all many well to do kids and older folk are almost exactly the same. Most will not get involved in violent acts .But they do get pissed out of their heads and often take hard drugs or still worse are probably behind lot of the trafficking.Far more importantly give just as much verbal abuse as anyone else of any other class .I have seen both sides in my life .Having worked at every high class establishments including Bond street and Savoy Row among many others .I also have family contacts who live in these circles not that we see them anymore. One household is the exception to that. Strangely similar to Arthur and his family and small group of real friends in "The English game" series.There are good and bad in every part of our society.Fortunately the good still out number the scum.But the scum are all to often cheered on by people who should no better. Because they have a bit of the Alf Garnett in them and like to be seen as a supporter of the English master race.Those people are from all walks of life. They probably represent the biggest group and the group that we must try to change. I point to Prince Harry and Meghan as a example of how there is just as much bigotry and hatefulness in high places. The hatred towards them was not from the working classes.
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Chris, we don't disagree. I definitely wasn't suggesting that it's only the working class who display these negative national characteristics. Not at all and far from it.

I was merely trying to offer some kind of explanation and/or excuse for the apparent arrogance and air of superiority, and xenophobia and/or casual racism that seems to be ingrained into the mentality of a significant proportion of the English working class.

I feel no desire to defend the higher classes and I suspect that there are some different causes at play. Most significantly, I'd have thought, would be that of privilege.
 
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You want to see real xenophobia and racism Buddha, spend some time in Spain.
I’m not talking Madrid or Barcelona tourist spots.
I’d say that in my experience, the average Spaniard is far more racist than the average Brit.
 
shotshy said:
You want to see real xenophobia and racism Buddha, spend some time in Spain.
I’m not talking Madrid or Barcelona tourist spots.
I’d say that in my experience, the average Spaniard is far more racist than the average Brit.
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I have spent some time in Spain, though mainly with like minded people and away from the cities. A little bit of time in Barcelona, but again hanging out in squats, etc.

Anyway, what's Spain got to do with this? It seems that you're suggesting that that racism and xenophobia is more of an issue in Spain than it is here? But I don't see how that is relevant. Irrespective of whether or not you're right, it's still not relevant. To say that someone else's shit is shittier than your shit doesn't stop your own shit from being shit.
 
mick745 said:
Why is it acceptable to make jibes about people's appearance. At Bristol Rovers this season one of our supporters yelled at one of their players "book him, he's f****** ginger". Someone of mature age. Acceptable, no. Bullying yes. That is a human being on the end of that. Many of our own supporters have red hair.
What if someone had a different appearance rather than hair colour, protruding teeth or acne? Luke Chadwick for example.
Name calling is not acceptable. What are you in the playground. Are you 12?
We should all reflect on what Chadwick says and take responsibility.
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It is easy to have a holier than thou attitude but you have to get these things in context.

Should all the fans that threw celery at Stannard, or call him BFJ (including myself) be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, even though they clearly loved the guy?

Perhaps all our fans that called THEMSELVES the ***** Army be ashamed of themselves for self "name calling"?

My dad was in the RAF during the war. One of his closest friends suffered from alopecia so the whole team called him Curly. I suppose those fighting men were all really 12 year olds belonging in the playground

The dividing line for me are where a group are picking on one person who clearly does not like it. It should then STOP.

I may be in the minority but I can still see a place for affectionate nicknames in the spirit of cameraderie.
 
Buddha said:
I have spent some time in Spain, though mainly with like minded people and away from the cities. A little bit of time in Barcelona, but again hanging out in squats, etc.

Anyway, what's Spain got to do with this? It seems that you're suggesting that that racism and xenophobia is more of an issue in Spain than it is here? But I don't see how that is relevant. Irrespective of whether or not you're right, it's still not relevant. To say that someone else's shit is shittier than your shit doesn't stop your own shit from being shit.
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I'm not implying anything mate, just correcting the impression that idiots are exclusively British.
Every country in the world has bullies, bigots and racists.

The UK has no more or no less that any other country.
 
GillsBluenose said:
It is easy to have a holier than thou attitude but you have to get these things in context.

Should all the fans that threw celery at Stannard, or call him BFJ (including myself) be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, even though they clearly loved the guy?

Perhaps all our fans that called THEMSELVES the ***** Army be ashamed of themselves for self "name calling"?

My dad was in the RAF during the war. One of his closest friends suffered from alopecia so the whole team called him Curly. I suppose those fighting men were all really 12 year olds belonging in the playground

The dividing line for me are where a group are picking on one person who clearly does not like it. It should then STOP.

I may be in the minority but I can still see a place for affectionate nicknames in the spirit of cameraderie.
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You make valid points. However one person's banter is another person's bullying. One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

Nicknames are a form of bullying. If the person uses the nickname themselves that is fine, then that is their name. If it is just used by a group of mates but not the targeted person as a means of highlighting something about that person and the 'mate' feels uncomfortable then it is not.

We know that many "names" we used to call colleagues years ago as "banter" are no longer considered acceptable.

If BFJ came out and asked supporters to stop that particular chant I wonder what the reaction would have been?
 
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All bullying is abhorrent, but not sure why it is being used as an excuse to run down our country and fellow English people, although I realise that that's a pastime of a lot. I spent a year in Northern France at Uni and was abused the whole time i was there by some of the locals - which ranged from being ignored on campus to CS gassed in a phone box while I was phoning my mum and dad. Fortunately, I am a strong character and it was water off a duck's back, but fully appreciate that, for some, these things can have lasting effects or even worse. My uncle moved to near Aberdeen when he was young to work on the rigs and my cousins were all physically and verbally abused while they were there - even racially (which is bizarre as we are not of an ethnic background, although we do have skin tone on the dark side, which I guess means my cousins stood out for the generally pasty Aberdonians most of whom have probably never seen a day with more than 2 hours sun and felt a temperature above 22 degrees!) It was particularly nasty for one of my cousins, who had to be taken out of school, counselled etc.

Because of my experiences, I wouldn't choose to class all French people, or French society as bullies or generally nastier than anyone else, or likewise the Scots (although there are obviously many reasons for us and the Scots and French to generally dislike each - mainly tongue in cheek). I find it very strange that people want to go down the road of using bullying as an excuse to bash the English. Strange.
 
SteveTreacle said:
All bullying is abhorrent, but not sure why it is being used as an excuse to run down our country and fellow English people, although I realise that that's a pastime of a lot. I spent a year in Northern France at Uni and was abused the whole time i was there by some of the locals - which ranged from being ignored on campus to CS gassed in a phone box while I was phoning my mum and dad. Fortunately, I am a strong character and it was water off a duck's back, but fully appreciate that, for some, these things can have lasting effects or even worse. My uncle moved to near Aberdeen when he was young to work on the rigs and my cousins were all physically and verbally abused while they were there - even racially (which is bizarre as we are not of an ethnic background, although we do have skin tone on the dark side, which I guess means my cousins stood out for the generally pasty Aberdonians most of whom have probably never seen a day with more than 2 hours sun and felt a temperature above 22 degrees!) It was particularly nasty for one of my cousins, who had to be taken out of school, counselled etc.

Because of my experiences, I wouldn't choose to class all French people, or French society as bullies or generally nastier than anyone else, or likewise the Scots (although there are obviously many reasons for us and the Scots and French to generally dislike each - mainly tongue in cheek). I find it very strange that people want to go down the road of using bullying as an excuse to bash the English. Strange.
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Dunno if you're referring to my posts, Steve, but I can assure you that my purpose wasn't to, "bash the English".

I'm an Englishman myself so my purpose would never be to bash the English, that just wouldn't makes sense.

It's the same as me being a Gills' supporter. I'll love this club for always, same as us all. But there have been, and shirley will be again, times when I've criticised the owner or the board, the management, the players, the coaching staff, the ticket office staff and even occasionally us fans (though thankfully never all at the same time!). Being critical of things doesn't necessarily mean that you're 'bashing' something. Especially if it as extension of yourself.

I realise that not all English people, or all working class people, are bullies or racists. And I also realise that other countries have their own bullies and racists. But these things are pretty obvious. I'm not trying to deny the obvious, and nor am I trying to bash anyone.

I just think that amongst normal English working class people there has always been a proportion who seem to have a capacity to express themselves in a nasty and bullying manner. These same people are often, in my experience anyway, the same kind of people who display jingoist, xenophobic and even, sometimes, racist tendencies. The kind of person who, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, the character of Alf Garnett typifies.

I didn't mention any of this to try to bash anyone. I was just trying to offer a possible explanation for as to why a section of the working class - a class that has been shat upon from above for generation after generation - would appear to have an ingrained mentality of arrogance and superiority. It all seems rather incongruous.

That is until you consider the nation's recent imperial past and the lies that the working classes have been fed, both during the time of Empire and in the years that have followed its collapse.
 
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Bullying is bad, racism is very bad, but Jason Lee needs to grow a pair of he is genuinely upset about the "pineapple" chants
 
ThreeSixes said:
Bullying is bad, racism is very bad, but Jason Lee needs to grow a pair of he is genuinely upset about the "pineapple" chants
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The fact that he now says that he kept the hairstyle for longer than he intended to in order to make a defiant gesture would also suggest to me that he was not a vulnerable target either.
 
The problem with any form of discrimination is how others perceive it, VG is labeled as a racist for comments about Muslims, yet the same people will comment on the Chinese and it's except able. The truth is none of it is except-able but people will draw their own lines.
 
nitram77 said:
The problem with any form of discrimination is how others perceive it, VG is labeled as a racist for comments about Muslims, yet the same people will comment on the Chinese and it's except able. The truth is none of it is except-able but people will draw their own lines.
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Sorry, nitram, but I'm not clear what you're saying here.

Shirley the only important (or at least the most important) perception is that of the person or persons who are feeling discriminated against?

Ok, it is clearly possible that someone might be feeling discrimination when actually there is none but the fact that they're feeling it is shirley grounds enough for investigation at least?

I'm not sure why you mentioned val, either? Do you mean that he is unfairly labelled a racist because he is not one? Or that discrimination against muslims isn't a form of racism? Or something else entirely?
 
Buddha said:
Sorry, nitram, but I'm not clear what you're saying here.

Shirley the only important (or at least the most important) perception is that of the person or persons who are feeling discriminated against?

Ok, it is clearly possible that someone might be feeling discrimination when actually there is none but the fact that they're feeling it is shirley grounds enough for investigation at least?

I'm not sure why you mentioned val, either? Do you mean that he is unfairly labelled a racist because he is not one? Or that discrimination against muslims isn't a form of racism? Or something else entirely?
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I think all forms of discrimination are wrong, I was simply pointing out that some people who criticize VG for his problem with Muslims have the same problem with the Chinese. They clearly can't see that they are showing the same discrimination, as I think you show a blind spot for the Tories, I am not saying all Tories are good but I'm sure they can't all be bad.
 
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