Real Deal
Alert Team
I feel for you mate. Stay strong for your family they are going to need you now more than ever.
I feel for you mate. Stay strong for your family they are going to need you now more than ever.
Greavswasthegreatest
Vital Football Legend
With you Bro! ...and your employees ..
muttley
Alert Team
Great conversation.
If you think of our main systems in the body - circulatory, digestive, immune, lymphatic, nervous, muscular, reproductive, endocrine (i.e. hormones). These obviously rely on the brain, skin, heart, lungs, liver, blood etc. As we go through the ageing process, all of these systems and organs aren't as optimal as they were at our peak. To put it bluntly, they are coming to the end of the human cycle and one or many of them will eventually fail leading to death. They obviously all don't deteriorate at the same rate and normally a failure or multiple failures at the same time kills us. That includes dying in your sleep obviously.
Then you have the people that have a condition in one of these systems. Some are known to the person as they've had symptoms and it's been tagged on their medical records and some go through life with the condition not knowing it.
Then a virus comes along and all of the above diminishes your ability to fight it. So how do you put meaningful stats against it when there are overlaps everywhere?
For me, I just keep it simple. I think of COVID-19 as the catalyst, not the root cause of death. With the deaths, the true root causes are known or unknown. The only way we'd be more accurate is by doing autopsies on every corpse to discover the weakness. That's not gonna happen and the medical team have to put some information on "cause of death".
muttley
Alert Team
Reminds me of that saying "good enough for government work". As I was just saying to Chiv, trying to get totally accurate stats is a fruitless exercise. As long as the medical staff are consistent in how they measure then it's the trends in the data that tell the biggest story. Here's UK....
If you asked an 8 year old to continue drawing this graph, what would it look like? That's surely the critical thing.
This is China's
We can flatten this thing.
Spursex
Alert Team
Hoddle,
what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, you probably won't see it right now, but there will be a way back for you and your wife.
Keep strong and project your mind into how you will feel looking back at this in 18 months time.
This is an economic disaster, but as we know it's also a human one too.
Best wishes in all you do.
vinniecopenhagen
Vital Football Hero
Thats terrible 10, this virus goes way beyond health issues,the financial,social and mental devastation is yet to come. My heart truly goes out to you and your family.I know your world seems like its ended but stay strong my friend,we will all get through this and there will be light at the end of the tunnel,believe me. Take care my friend,you always have us lot on here when the going gets tough.
D
Deleted member 7310
Guest
I agree 100% and this is why I oppose the lock down, it will cost more lives than the virus.
Stay strong and healthy, that's the only way to get through this.
Greavswasthegreatest
Vital Football Legend
So what are the Germans doing that we are not....apart from the fact that the Germans are paranoid about exactly recording information and we are crap
By way of example UK v Germany
Cases 8077 32981
Deaths 422 159
Recovered 107 3243
Recovered % 1.3 9.8
By way of example UK v Germany
Cases 8077 32981
Deaths 422 159
Recovered 107 3243
Recovered % 1.3 9.8
Spursex
Alert Team
https://elemental.medium.com/5-coronavirus-facts-to-use-on-anyone-who-isnt-listening-ee786374bf65
Sign in
For more information on the novel coronavirus and Covid-19, visit cdc.gov
Top highlight
5 Coronavirus Facts to Use on Anyone Who Isn’t Listening
The time for being selfish is over
Dana G Smith
Mar 23 · 3 min read
People walk past a health advisory to help stop the spread of the novel coronavirus in South Beach, Florida, on March 19, 2020. Photo: Eva Marie Uzcategui/AFP/Getty Images
College kids on spring break in Miami. Your retired parents insisting they can still go out to lunch. Millennials throwing quarantine parties. Despite the scary Covid-19 projections, shelter-in-place orders, and all the talk of flattening the curve, some people still aren’t getting how serious the novel coronavirus is — and that they play an important part in keeping themselves and the rest of their community safe.
Here are five facts to send to your most stubborn or science-averse friend or family member to get them to finally — finally — listen.
Sign in
For more information on the novel coronavirus and Covid-19, visit cdc.gov
Top highlight
5 Coronavirus Facts to Use on Anyone Who Isn’t Listening
The time for being selfish is over
Dana G Smith
Mar 23 · 3 min read
People walk past a health advisory to help stop the spread of the novel coronavirus in South Beach, Florida, on March 19, 2020. Photo: Eva Marie Uzcategui/AFP/Getty Images
Here are five facts to send to your most stubborn or science-averse friend or family member to get them to finally — finally — listen.
- People are contagious very early on in the infection, potentially even before they’re symptomatic. A study conducted by researchers in Germany found that nine people infected with the novel coronavirus were shedding huge amounts of the virus — thousands to millions of copies — as early as Day One of their infection, when they had only mild, cold-like symptoms. In fact, virus levels in the nose and throat were highest on that first day and declined in the days after. This suggests that infected people are shedding the virus even before they are symptomatic.
- It can take up to 11 days for symptoms to appear after infection. Research has shown that the median incubation period is five days. That means some people will develop symptoms sooner and some will develop them later. The study also reported that only 2.5% of people showed symptoms two days after exposure, and 97.5% of people were symptomatic after 11 days. This means that if you’ve come into contact with someone who has the virus, you need to quarantine for the full 14 days to be safe. This timeframe is especially important because you can be highly contagious during this time and not even know it (see point above).
- The virus lives on surfaces for up to three days. In an experiment, scientists created an aerosol that contained the novel coronavirus to mimic how it would be spread by a sneeze, a cough, or an exhale. Then, they sprayed that aerosol onto different surfaces to see how long the virus could survive. On copper, the virus was detectable for up to four hours, on cardboard for up to 24 hours, and on plastics and stainless steel for two to three days. This means that objects can remain contaminated for a much longer time, and people can become infected with the virus if they touch the object and then touch their face. You can also get infected if you inhale a sick person’s sneeze, cough, or exhale.
- The rate of the infection is growing exponentially. The WHO estimates the infection rate for the novel coronavirus is between 2 and 2.5, meaning that every person who gets sick will infect another two or three people. At that pace, the number of people with the virus will double every six days. This rate has led epidemiologists to predict that 40% to 70% of the population could contract the virus if extreme social distancing measures aren’t taken.
- It’s not just old people who are getting seriously sick. A lot of young people have blown off the risk of Covid-19 because most of the deaths have been reported in people over the age of 60. However, a new report by the CDC found that in the U.S., 38% of people who were hospitalized for Covid-19 were between the ages of 20 and 54, and 12% of ICU beds were taken up by people aged 20 to 44 years. Even if the virus doesn’t kill you as a young person, it can still make you very sick.
D
Deleted member 7310
Guest
They are conducting 160k tests a week, unlike our pathetic numbers.
This paints a more realistic picture by providing a wider data set across the whole age demographic distribution
I am 100% certain that the number of people infected and recoverd in the UK is at least 5 times higher.
D
Deleted member 7310
Guest
https://elemental.medium.com/5-coronavirus-facts-to-use-on-anyone-who-isnt-listening-ee786374bf65
Sign in
For more information on the novel coronavirus and Covid-19, visit cdc.gov
Top highlight
5 Coronavirus Facts to Use on Anyone Who Isn’t Listening
The time for being selfish is over
Dana G Smith
Mar 23 · 3 min read
People walk past a health advisory to help stop the spread of the novel coronavirus in South Beach, Florida, on March 19, 2020. Photo: Eva Marie Uzcategui/AFP/Getty Images
College kids on spring break in Miami. Your retired parents insisting they can still go out to lunch. Millennials throwing quarantine parties. Despite the scary Covid-19 projections, shelter-in-place orders, and all the talk of flattening the curve, some people still aren’t getting how serious the novel coronavirus is — and that they play an important part in keeping themselves and the rest of their community safe.
Here are five facts to send to your most stubborn or science-averse friend or family member to get them to finally — finally — listen.
This information doesn’t mean you should panic, but you do need to take the pandemic seriously. Everyone has a responsibility — not only to protect themselves, but to protect their friends, family, neighbors, and community. You don’t want to be a vector for the virus, and the best way to curb the outbreak is to strictly practice social distancing.
- People are contagious very early on in the infection, potentially even before they’re symptomatic. A study conducted by researchers in Germany found that nine people infected with the novel coronavirus were shedding huge amounts of the virus — thousands to millions of copies — as early as Day One of their infection, when they had only mild, cold-like symptoms. In fact, virus levels in the nose and throat were highest on that first day and declined in the days after. This suggests that infected people are shedding the virus even before they are symptomatic.
- It can take up to 11 days for symptoms to appear after infection. Research has shown that the median incubation period is five days. That means some people will develop symptoms sooner and some will develop them later. The study also reported that only 2.5% of people showed symptoms two days after exposure, and 97.5% of people were symptomatic after 11 days. This means that if you’ve come into contact with someone who has the virus, you need to quarantine for the full 14 days to be safe. This timeframe is especially important because you can be highly contagious during this time and not even know it (see point above).
- The virus lives on surfaces for up to three days. In an experiment, scientists created an aerosol that contained the novel coronavirus to mimic how it would be spread by a sneeze, a cough, or an exhale. Then, they sprayed that aerosol onto different surfaces to see how long the virus could survive. On copper, the virus was detectable for up to four hours, on cardboard for up to 24 hours, and on plastics and stainless steel for two to three days. This means that objects can remain contaminated for a much longer time, and people can become infected with the virus if they touch the object and then touch their face. You can also get infected if you inhale a sick person’s sneeze, cough, or exhale.
- The rate of the infection is growing exponentially. The WHO estimates the infection rate for the novel coronavirus is between 2 and 2.5, meaning that every person who gets sick will infect another two or three people. At that pace, the number of people with the virus will double every six days. This rate has led epidemiologists to predict that 40% to 70% of the population could contract the virus if extreme social distancing measures aren’t taken.
- It’s not just old people who are getting seriously sick. A lot of young people have blown off the risk of Covid-19 because most of the deaths have been reported in people over the age of 60. However, a new report by the CDC found that in the U.S., 38% of people who were hospitalized for Covid-19 were between the ages of 20 and 54, and 12% of ICU beds were taken up by people aged 20 to 44 years. Even if the virus doesn’t kill you as a young person, it can still make you very sick.
Piss poor article - author is manipulating data.
"It’s not just old people who are getting seriously sick. A lot of young people have blown off the risk of Covid-19 because most of the deaths have been reported in people over the age of 60. However, a new report by the CDC found that in the U.S., 38% of people who were hospitalized for Covid-19 were between the ages of 20 and 54, and 12% of ICU beds were taken up by people aged 20 to 44 years. Even if the virus doesn’t kill you as a young person, it can still make you very sick."
He bundled together all the people aged 20-54, which is deceitful as the report he is relying on clearly makes a better distinction:
Among 508 (12%) patients known to have been hospitalized:
9% were aged ≥85 years,
36% were aged 65–84 years
17% were aged 55–64 years
18% were 45–54 years
20% were aged 20–44 years.
Less than 1% of hospitalizations were among persons aged ≤19 years
(The percentage of persons hospitalized increased with age, from 2%–3% among persons aged ≤19 years, to ≥31% among adults aged ≥85 years.
That's 80% of hospitalized people are over the age of 45!
"Among 121 patients known to have been admitted to an ICU:
7% among adults ≥85 years
46% among adults aged 65–84 years
36% among adults aged 45–64 years
and 12% among adults aged 20–44 years
No ICU admissions were reported among persons aged ≤19 years. Percentages of ICU admissions were lowest among adults aged 20–44 years (2%–4%) and highest among adults aged 75–84 years (11%–31%)"
Thats 89% of people admitted to ICU's above the age of 45!
This is misleading garbage.
Spursex
Alert Team
Harry-Kari
Vital 1st Team Regular
Doing proper testing
Doing proper testing and analysis probably.
Harry-Kari
Vital 1st Team Regular
What does our curve look like in normal years?
Spursex
Alert Team
COVID-19: What Next for Lockdown UK?
Peter Russell
March 24, 2020
Boris Johnson's message to the public that they should stay at home, backed up by the draconian threat of police action for those who ignored the instruction, was accompanied with a suggestion that "we can turn the tide within the next 12 weeks".
It was also tempered by a promise to review the restrictions after 3 weeks.
This afternoon, Health Secretary Matt Hancock told the Commions: "These measures are not advice. They are rules, and will be enforced, including by the police, with fines starting at £30 pounds, up to unlimited fines for non-compliance."
Restrictions Will Be Reviewed After 3 Weeks
Although Mr Johnson hinted that he might relax restrictions if the evidence showed this was possible, Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office Minister did not rule out further tightening if the measures did not slow the virus spread.
"In 3 weeks' time we will be able to say whether or not the path that we followed needs any further intensification," he told Sky News this morning.
Emergency legislation to give the Government more powers to restrict movement and detain people who are a danger to public health is being fast-tracked through Parliament. The bill passed its Commons stages last night and is being considered by the Lords today.
In the initial stages of the pandemic, the Government had pursued a policy of containment, identifying people with the virus, isolating them, tracking their contacts and asking them to self-isolate. That was followed by policies to delay and flatten the peak to give the NHS more breathing space.
Experts Backed Suppression Over Mitigation
The measures Mr Johnson announced on Monday night followed research by Imperial College London (ICL) which gave a bleak assessment of likely trends. The ICL modelling found that pursuing a policy of 'mitigation' could result in a mortality rate of around 250,000 deaths and that 'suppression' was "the only viable strategy at the current time".
However, it came with a warning that "no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time", and that how people would respond "remains unclear".
That analysis was followed on Monday by non-peer reviewed research, led by University College London and the University of Cambridge, which concluded that 'mitigation' could lead to between 35,000 and 70,000 excess deaths within a year, and that stronger suppression measures were needed to combat the spread of COVID-19.
Dr Rupert Beale from the Francis Crick Institute, welcomed the Prime Minister's announcement: "Doctors and scientists are working flat out to deliver better testing and better treatments, but this will take time," he told the Science Media Centre. "Before then we will run out of capacity in intensive care units if we do not obey these instructions."
Rowland Kao, Sir Timothy O'Shea professor of veterinary epidemiology and data science at the University of Edinburgh, warned: "It must be hoped that such measures will only last a relatively short time. However, we must be prepared for this not to be the case, and for them to be in place for an extended period."
Dr Andrea Collins, senior clinical lecturer in respiratory medicine at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, thought the measures "have not quite gone far enough", particularly in mixing in the workplace. She said: "The 'absolutely' necessary to go to work is still being used by some when it is not required - I think we need permits across controlled areas to go to a workplace. Home working is hard for many but it is possible, we just need to adapt to a new way of being."
Prof Sylvia Richardson, director, MRC Biostatistics Unit, University of Cambridge, said: "The increase in the death rate has to be monitored together with information coming from population level testing and other sources to evaluate whether additional measures, such as the ones recently taken in Italy, will need to be taken."
Even more severe restrictions on freedom have recently been imposed in some areas of Italy, which has overtaken China as the nation to register most deaths from COVID-19. In the Lombardy region, all outdoor physical activity, as well as the use of vending machines, was banned on 22nd March.
The Government's Coronavirus Bill will hand additional powers to the authorities here in the UK to deal with the spread of the virus. People could be detained and treated under mental health legislation using the opinion of just one doctor, rather than the current two; schools and childcare providers could be compelled to stay open to ensure that healthcare workers and other critical staff can go to work; police and immigration officers could detain and isolate people judged to be causing a risk to public health.
The police will have powers to enforce people to comply with the measures outlined by Mr Johnson yesterday through fines and dispersing gatherings of more than two people.
Editor's note, 24th March 2020: This article was updated to include Matt Hancock's statement on fines.
Peter Russell
March 24, 2020
Boris Johnson's message to the public that they should stay at home, backed up by the draconian threat of police action for those who ignored the instruction, was accompanied with a suggestion that "we can turn the tide within the next 12 weeks".
It was also tempered by a promise to review the restrictions after 3 weeks.
This afternoon, Health Secretary Matt Hancock told the Commions: "These measures are not advice. They are rules, and will be enforced, including by the police, with fines starting at £30 pounds, up to unlimited fines for non-compliance."
Restrictions Will Be Reviewed After 3 Weeks
Although Mr Johnson hinted that he might relax restrictions if the evidence showed this was possible, Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office Minister did not rule out further tightening if the measures did not slow the virus spread.
"In 3 weeks' time we will be able to say whether or not the path that we followed needs any further intensification," he told Sky News this morning.
Emergency legislation to give the Government more powers to restrict movement and detain people who are a danger to public health is being fast-tracked through Parliament. The bill passed its Commons stages last night and is being considered by the Lords today.
In the initial stages of the pandemic, the Government had pursued a policy of containment, identifying people with the virus, isolating them, tracking their contacts and asking them to self-isolate. That was followed by policies to delay and flatten the peak to give the NHS more breathing space.
Experts Backed Suppression Over Mitigation
The measures Mr Johnson announced on Monday night followed research by Imperial College London (ICL) which gave a bleak assessment of likely trends. The ICL modelling found that pursuing a policy of 'mitigation' could result in a mortality rate of around 250,000 deaths and that 'suppression' was "the only viable strategy at the current time".
However, it came with a warning that "no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time", and that how people would respond "remains unclear".
That analysis was followed on Monday by non-peer reviewed research, led by University College London and the University of Cambridge, which concluded that 'mitigation' could lead to between 35,000 and 70,000 excess deaths within a year, and that stronger suppression measures were needed to combat the spread of COVID-19.
Dr Rupert Beale from the Francis Crick Institute, welcomed the Prime Minister's announcement: "Doctors and scientists are working flat out to deliver better testing and better treatments, but this will take time," he told the Science Media Centre. "Before then we will run out of capacity in intensive care units if we do not obey these instructions."
Rowland Kao, Sir Timothy O'Shea professor of veterinary epidemiology and data science at the University of Edinburgh, warned: "It must be hoped that such measures will only last a relatively short time. However, we must be prepared for this not to be the case, and for them to be in place for an extended period."
Dr Andrea Collins, senior clinical lecturer in respiratory medicine at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, thought the measures "have not quite gone far enough", particularly in mixing in the workplace. She said: "The 'absolutely' necessary to go to work is still being used by some when it is not required - I think we need permits across controlled areas to go to a workplace. Home working is hard for many but it is possible, we just need to adapt to a new way of being."
Prof Sylvia Richardson, director, MRC Biostatistics Unit, University of Cambridge, said: "The increase in the death rate has to be monitored together with information coming from population level testing and other sources to evaluate whether additional measures, such as the ones recently taken in Italy, will need to be taken."
Even more severe restrictions on freedom have recently been imposed in some areas of Italy, which has overtaken China as the nation to register most deaths from COVID-19. In the Lombardy region, all outdoor physical activity, as well as the use of vending machines, was banned on 22nd March.
The Government's Coronavirus Bill will hand additional powers to the authorities here in the UK to deal with the spread of the virus. People could be detained and treated under mental health legislation using the opinion of just one doctor, rather than the current two; schools and childcare providers could be compelled to stay open to ensure that healthcare workers and other critical staff can go to work; police and immigration officers could detain and isolate people judged to be causing a risk to public health.
The police will have powers to enforce people to comply with the measures outlined by Mr Johnson yesterday through fines and dispersing gatherings of more than two people.
Editor's note, 24th March 2020: This article was updated to include Matt Hancock's statement on fines.
D
Deleted member 7310
Guest
COVID-19: What Next for Lockdown UK?
Peter Russell
March 24, 2020
The Prime Minister was clear last night in his televised address that COVID-19 was "the biggest threat this country has faced for decades".
Boris Johnson's message to the public that they should stay at home, backed up by the draconian threat of police action for those who ignored the instruction, was accompanied with a suggestion that "we can turn the tide within the next 12 weeks".
It was also tempered by a promise to review the restrictions after 3 weeks.
This afternoon, Health Secretary Matt Hancock told the Commions: "These measures are not advice. They are rules, and will be enforced, including by the police, with fines starting at £30 pounds, up to unlimited fines for non-compliance."
Restrictions Will Be Reviewed After 3 Weeks
Although Mr Johnson hinted that he might relax restrictions if the evidence showed this was possible, Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office Minister did not rule out further tightening if the measures did not slow the virus spread.
"In 3 weeks' time we will be able to say whether or not the path that we followed needs any further intensification," he told Sky News this morning.
Emergency legislation to give the Government more powers to restrict movement and detain people who are a danger to public health is being fast-tracked through Parliament. The bill passed its Commons stages last night and is being considered by the Lords today.
In the initial stages of the pandemic, the Government had pursued a policy of containment, identifying people with the virus, isolating them, tracking their contacts and asking them to self-isolate. That was followed by policies to delay and flatten the peak to give the NHS more breathing space.
Experts Backed Suppression Over Mitigation
The measures Mr Johnson announced on Monday night followed research by Imperial College London (ICL) which gave a bleak assessment of likely trends. The ICL modelling found that pursuing a policy of 'mitigation' could result in a mortality rate of around 250,000 deaths and that 'suppression' was "the only viable strategy at the current time".
However, it came with a warning that "no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time", and that how people would respond "remains unclear".
That analysis was followed on Monday by non-peer reviewed research, led by University College London and the University of Cambridge, which concluded that 'mitigation' could lead to between 35,000 and 70,000 excess deaths within a year, and that stronger suppression measures were needed to combat the spread of COVID-19.
Dr Rupert Beale from the Francis Crick Institute, welcomed the Prime Minister's announcement: "Doctors and scientists are working flat out to deliver better testing and better treatments, but this will take time," he told the Science Media Centre. "Before then we will run out of capacity in intensive care units if we do not obey these instructions."
Rowland Kao, Sir Timothy O'Shea professor of veterinary epidemiology and data science at the University of Edinburgh, warned: "It must be hoped that such measures will only last a relatively short time. However, we must be prepared for this not to be the case, and for them to be in place for an extended period."
Dr Andrea Collins, senior clinical lecturer in respiratory medicine at the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, thought the measures "have not quite gone far enough", particularly in mixing in the workplace. She said: "The 'absolutely' necessary to go to work is still being used by some when it is not required - I think we need permits across controlled areas to go to a workplace. Home working is hard for many but it is possible, we just need to adapt to a new way of being."
Prof Sylvia Richardson, director, MRC Biostatistics Unit, University of Cambridge, said: "The increase in the death rate has to be monitored together with information coming from population level testing and other sources to evaluate whether additional measures, such as the ones recently taken in Italy, will need to be taken."
Even more severe restrictions on freedom have recently been imposed in some areas of Italy, which has overtaken China as the nation to register most deaths from COVID-19. In the Lombardy region, all outdoor physical activity, as well as the use of vending machines, was banned on 22nd March.
The Government's Coronavirus Bill will hand additional powers to the authorities here in the UK to deal with the spread of the virus. People could be detained and treated under mental health legislation using the opinion of just one doctor, rather than the current two; schools and childcare providers could be compelled to stay open to ensure that healthcare workers and other critical staff can go to work; police and immigration officers could detain and isolate people judged to be causing a risk to public health.
The police will have powers to enforce people to comply with the measures outlined by Mr Johnson yesterday through fines and dispersing gatherings of more than two people.
Editor's note, 24th March 2020: This article was updated to include Matt Hancock's statement on fines.
Ex, copy pasting articles makes it extremely difficult to go through threads.
Any chance you could summarize in a sentence and link the article instead of copy pasting?
D
Departed
Guest
It's the mental strength and attitude that get's us through things Hod. Plus the fact you have 8 other people that are counting on you. Get through this and your wife's business will bounce back. Those people that obviously thought it was great will still be around in a few months and the great thing about it is it's fairly easy to ramp it up again.
There are literally millions of people that will need financial help to get through this both individually and business-wise, not to mention large companies. It is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. And FFS you've been a solid contributing member of society for years, you deserve the help when you need it.
Do whatever you can to be prepared for things to return to normal. Talk to the people involved start them thinking about it as well. We all absolutely need to be looking to the future.
Look after your health and exercise whenever you can to the extent that your health allows and eat properly.
And definitely minimize watching the death mongers in the media.
muttley
Alert Team
Curve of what? Death by ALL influenza types? I would guess that if you looked at it over a year you would see peaks and troughs based on seasons and weather patterns, but you wouldn't get that exponential shape that countries are seeing recently. I think I also read somewhere that each strain can be less or more infectious and that drastically changes the graphs each year.
Would love to know where to get the comparable data. I use the Worldometer - https://www.worldometers.info
D
Departed
Guest
I wonder what the C19 recovery rate is?
