Cook needs to go!

[Roy Race]

You've got to smile. There was always a chance of it happening. Success. Mediocrity. Failure. In various walks of life, the (already fine) line dividing those 3 outcomes is often finer than we'd like to think.

There's no denying some of the facts:
- we've played poorly in more games than those in which we've played well.
- regardless of whether it was tactical or not, our approach to games appears to have got more negative and cautious in recent months ....... not so much sin miedo, more mucho miedo.
- Our inability to free ourselves of the away-game hoodoo seems to have fed the lack of belief and self doubt within the players

So. Folk have seen it coming for months. The writing was on the wall. Action should have been taken before the New Year.


Aye. they've been proven right. They knew best all along. They win the big orange. Those supporters hoping for - and expecting? - a recovery were being naive. Delusional. Happy Clappers, looking through rose tinted specs.

I supported Martinez. He went. I supported Rosler. He went. I supported Caldwell. He went. I'm supporting Cook. He's still here........... though he prpbably won't be unless we teach a harsh lesson to our neighbours from the UniBol on Saturday.

So, maybe me, and others like me are the problem. We don't see when a manager is on the road to failure ..........except that the vast majority are on the road to failure for most of their career. How many times do we see a Manager win promotion (messiah), only to struggle the following season in the higher division (pariah), leading to their sacking. Then, the whole process starts all over again. .......and again ......... and again.

Personally, I'm tired of it. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a Manager who lasts for a whole two seasons? Hell, the last 6 haven't ......... 7 if Cook goes! If we do go down (and that's still a big if), then Cook's record stands us in good stead to bring us back up. It'll also be a chance to blood some of the many youngsters who seem to be coming to maturity in the next couple of seasons.

So, if anyone "told me so", I don't give a toss. Football isn't always a game where you can judge the future based on looking at the past. If anyone should know that, then Tics fans certainly should. Form doesn't always inform what will happen in future.

Munich? Personally, I hope that Cook not only went to watch the game (piss up or not) but I hope he got IEC to pay for the rest of the staff and players to go with him. Togetherness will be required from now on in. Playing for each other. Playing for the club. Playing for the fans. Playing for themselves. Playing to maybe one day see themselves in a big game,where they need to have the guts to go out and win it.

That starts on Saturday.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Boycey17]

They paid for a trip to Dubai which benefited us massively didnt it...

 

[Will_Shahane]

As I said Will, you show intelligence beyond your age. You have put together an excellent reply to my post and raised a couple of interesting points, one being the amount of money available to the club. My opinion on this is that there is very little available otherwise Will Grigg would not have been sold, the owners clearly want to reduce our losses this year and that indicates to me there is no money pot available.

I have on other threads explained my reasoning for not wanting to change the manager at this moment in time, the primary reason being that it is not financially viable. I believe that there is no guarantee that the new manager bounce would save us and in our desperation to get a new man in place we again make a poor decision and waste money that the club clearly does not have. Some have advocated getting in a man like Redknap to do a short term job, however I think the cost would be prohibitive and carry no certainty. I would rather wait until the season ends when the dust settles and there is more clarity about where we are and then make the decision to stick or change.

Going back into the lower league would not be catastrophic as you say, for sure none of us want that, however that is what league football is about, some clubs go up others go down. We had a good season in league one last year and are having a poor one this year in the Championship. What will happen next season? I don't know. What I am certain about is that I will still be buying my season ticket along with many others and supporting the club I have supported since I was a young boy.

Results went against us last night, and we are now only out of the relegation places on goal difference, however, that could all change with the next round of fixtures. Hopefully seeing how precarious our position is will be the spur needed to get the players motivated and a win against Bolton will lift the spirits on here. A loss on the other hand will no doubt increase the calls for Cook to go, and I no doubt will have egg on my face, but until that happens I remain optimistic.

You've got to smile. There was always a chance of it happening. Success. Mediocrity. Failure. In various walks of life, the (already fine) line dividing those 3 outcomes is often finer than we'd like to think.

There's no denying some of the facts:
- we've played poorly in more games than those in which we've played well.
- regardless of whether it was tactical or not, our approach to games appears to have got more negative and cautious in recent months ....... not so much sin miedo, more mucho miedo.
- Our inability to free ourselves of the away-game hoodoo seems to have fed the lack of belief and self doubt within the players

So. Folk have seen it coming for months. The writing was on the wall. Action should have been taken before the New Year.


Aye. they've been proven right. They knew best all along. They win the big orange. Those supporters hoping for - and expecting? - a recovery were being naive. Delusional. Happy Clappers, looking through rose tinted specs.

I supported Martinez. He went. I supported Rosler. He went. I supported Caldwell. He went. I'm supporting Cook. He's still here........... though he prpbably won't be unless we teach a harsh lesson to our neighbours from the UniBol on Saturday.

So, maybe me, and others like me are the problem. We don't see when a manager is on the road to failure ..........except that the vast majority are on the road to failure for most of their career. How many times do we see a Manager win promotion (messiah), only to struggle the following season in the higher division (pariah), leading to their sacking. Then, the whole process starts all over again. .......and again ......... and again.

Personally, I'm tired of it. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a Manager who lasts for a whole two seasons? Hell, the last 6 haven't ......... 7 if Cook goes! If we do go down (and that's still a big if), then Cook's record stands us in good stead to bring us back up. It'll also be a chance to blood some of the many youngsters who seem to be coming to maturity in the next couple of seasons.

So, if anyone "told me so", I don't give a toss. Football isn't always a game where you can judge the future based on looking at the past. If anyone should know that, then Tics fans certainly should. Form doesn't always inform what will happen in future.

Munich? Personally, I hope that Cook not only went to watch the game (piss up or not) but I hope he got IEC to pay for the rest of the staff and players to go with him. Togetherness will be required from now on in. Playing for each other. Playing for the club. Playing for the fans. Playing for themselves. Playing to maybe one day see themselves in a big game,where they need to have the guts to go out and win it.

That starts on Saturday.

That's a good point regarding the Will Grigg transfer and the statement it makes about our new owners, True Believer. I guess you're right in that, perhaps they aren't as rich as we would've liked to believe, or if they are, they aren't willing to spend as much as we might've envisaged. Hence, as I conceded in my previous post, it was in fact quite naïve of me to include Karanka and Carvalhal, who have both managed in the Premier League and for top end Championship clubs not so long ago, in my list of prospective managers.

The point about the financial viability of bringing a new manager in is very valid and reasonable, but my personal belief still remains that the increase in cost of introducing a new manager would be compensated by the money saved through avoiding relegation. Sadly, the faith in Cook's ability to keep us up, that I had maintained for almost the entirety of the season thus far, has now evaporated.

Yeah, perhaps I were a little melodramatic when I described the prospect of relegation as 'catastrophic'. Thing is though, I've seen clubs on my doorstep, like Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday and even Leeds United, get trapped in League 1 for several seasons, and I would just prefer to not see this happen to us. Especially when such a scenario is avoidable. I know the last couple of times we've come back fairly comfortably, but there is no guarantee that this would be the case next year. Perhaps we'd be more complacent this time, given our relative ease in securing immediate promotion in the most recent two campaigns? This could be a potential downfall. I totally agree on the last part though regarding your season ticket; you support the club no matter what league they're in (I think I was discussing this with you on another thread, actually).

Moonay, I am also finding the repetitiveness of our situation in terms of changing managers rather tedious, to be honest. After having Martinez for 4 years, we have subsequently gone through 7 managers in the last 5 years, and I admit that this isn't conducive to stability. However, as I've already mentioned, I think in this case the removal of Cook really is necessary for our progression and survival in this league. Just because our gambles on managers haven't paid off in the past, I don't believe that this should entirely discourage us from gambling once again.

At the end of the day, I really do hope that I am incorrect in all of this. Please don't think I'm some annoying little twat who's jumping on the 'Cook out' bandwagon, just so I can say 'I told you so' if he is sacked! The Latics mean infinitely more to me than 'winning the argument' (whatever that even means) on here, or being 'right' about this, and as I have already mentioned, I truly hope that everything I have posted on this thread is proven completely wrong.

To put it simplistically, I see the Cook out/in discussion essentially as a head versus heart debate. Those who want him out are quoting statistics and highlighting poor form, whereas, in the main, those wanting him to stay are relying on gut feel and a hope that he will come good (although your financial point is logical, True Believer). At first I couldn't really understand this (hence Moonay's exasperation!), but now I see that this isn't a political debate, but a footballing one, and on so many occasions in football, logical expectations are provenly entirely incorrect, and gut feel can go a long way. We of all clubs should know that. Incidents like Ranieri's title-winning season at Leicester, and our beating Manchester City 3 out of the last 4 times we’ve played them, exemplify this point perfectly; logic can so often be defied in football. Let's just hope that your gut feel is right, and we thrash Bolton at the weekend to set up the rest of our season.

Oh and True Believer, thank you once again for the kind words. Generally, most people on this forum have been very kind to me, and have been complimentary even when they didn't have to be. It truly is much appreciated.

 

[moonay]

Nice one Will.
?

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

To put it simplistically, I see the Cook out/in discussion essentially as a head versus heart debate. Those who want him out are quoting statistics and highlighting poor form, whereas, in the main, those wanting him to stay are relying on gut feel and a hope that he will come good

I think this pretty much sums up the debate.

 

[Made in Wigan]

I think this pretty much sums up the debate.

It's why it's utterly baffling Royle junior hasn't acted, he should be making decisions with his head not heart.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

That's bollocks. I often say I hope I'm proven wrong and have said so when I have been. Sadly I'm not often wrong in regards these matters.

You often get some of the clappers going on about hindsight when reality dawns, some of them just slink away. Speaking of which, what's happened to Mr Morris and The Chat?

Hadn't specifically mentioned anyone MiW, however if you want to claim the honours go ahead.

 

[moonay]

Hadn't specifically mentioned anyone MiW, however if you want to claim the honours go ahead.

Guilty conscience? ?

Bet he's got a snug fitting cap too ?

?

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Will, Head v Heart is a good summation of the problem but in my view there is no right or wrong in this debate, both sides have equally good reasons for their stance and you cant even say that time will tell in this case because there are just too many variables. We could win on Saturday and everyone else around us suffer defeats, we could lose on Saturday and everyone else suffer defeats...….. you get where I am going with this. I think on this one we will just have to wait and see what the club do and pray they get it right.

The one thing it does do is give rise to some interesting discussion.

 

[jeffs right]

I think one thing you and others fail to understand is that we only have Lower League Budget now. Please be kind enough to say which top manager is going to come given the wages we pay and the lack of a sizeable recruitment pot to improve the squad with the big club contacts he has. I think people on here need a reality check, we don't have billionaire owners and there is no magic money tree growing under any of the stands.

You presume we have a lower league budget. How does anybody know what these mystery men will invest.
They never speak of their intentions or come to think of it they don't speak at all and Jim and Anthony are just as quiet in their day to day control of our club.
If we are to suffer from serious financial restraints then fair enough I wouldn't be at all worried about following Latics in League 2 or 1 but at least communicate that's what they want from our football club. If they want The Championship or higher then just tell us.
All of us care a great deal more about Latics than any of those lot.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

You presume we have a lower league budget. How does anybody know what these mystery men will invest.
They never speak of their intentions or come to think of it they don't speak at all and Jim and Anthony are just as quiet in their day to day control of our club.
If we are to suffer from serious financial restraints then fair enough I wouldn't be at all worried about following Latics in League 2 or 1 but at least communicate that's what they want from our football club. If they want The Championship or higher then just tell us.
All of us care a great deal more about Latics than any of those lot.

I genuinely believe that the sale of Grigg is an indication of the amount of money they are willing to invest. If the owners have a large amount of money to spend then why take the risk of selling a prize asset regardless of what amount is offered. If they didn't need the money, why take it.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

I genuinely believe that the sale of Grigg is an indication of the amount of money they are willing to invest. If the owners have a large amount of money to spend then why take the risk of selling a prize asset regardless of what amount is offered. If they didn't need the money, why take it.

I suggest that austerity, at least at Wigan Athletic has certainly not ended.

 

[Danny_de_Zeeuw16]

Some MAnagers like their wingers to play on the opposite side, so they can cut in. Like Jacobs does on the left.

I'd prefer it the "normal" way, but I can understand why Naismith played on the right.

Yeah for me personally I think it depends on the player. Valencia for us and then Mcmannaman under Martinez was great going down the byline but I thought Moses and n zogbia were great cutting in. Depends on the player, I do find it more exciting when they have the options to shoot as well though

 

[Will_Shahane]

Will, Head v Heart is a good summation of the problem but in my view there is no right or wrong in this debate, both sides have equally good reasons for their stance and you cant even say that time will tell in this case because there are just too many variables. We could win on Saturday and everyone else around us suffer defeats, we could lose on Saturday and everyone else suffer defeats...….. you get where I am going with this. I think on this one we will just have to wait and see what the club do and pray they get it right.

The one thing it does do is give rise to some interesting discussion.

Oh yeah I agree totally mate. Even if hypothetically we were to sack Cook and our new manager came in and kept us up, even that would be no confirmation of my being right. Because who's to say Cook wouldn't have done the same?

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Oh yeah I agree totally mate. Even if hypothetically we were to sack Cook and our new manager came in and kept us up, even that would be no confirmation of my being right. Because who's to say Cook wouldn't have done the same?

No one looks back at sacking Chris Hutchings and says maybe we should've stuck with him as Bruce was a successful replacement. If we sack Cook and stay up it's the right call if we go down after sacking him some will say he may have turned it around and it was a mistake. History is written by the winners.

 

[Martinez1986]

No one looks back at sacking Chris Hutchings and says maybe we should've stuck with him as Bruce was a successful replacement. If we sack Cook and stay up it's the right call if we go down after sacking him some will say he may have turned it around and it was a mistake. History is written by the winners.

maybe £50 million plus reasons

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

maybe £50 million plus reasons

5m+ reasons now.

 

[Will_Shahane]

No one looks back at sacking Chris Hutchings and says maybe we should've stuck with him as Bruce was a successful replacement. If we sack Cook and stay up it's the right call if we go down after sacking him some will say he may have turned it around and it was a mistake. History is written by the winners.

Yeah I agree, but what I meant is that, even if a new manager were to come in and keep us up, we'd never be sure whether Cook could've done the same, and saved us a lot of money. I don't think he will, but what I'm saying is we'd never really know.

 

[moonay]

As opposed to Hutchings KDZ, surely the comparators should be Rosler and Caldwell.

Previously successful, but subsequently struggling.

Personally, I'd have given both more time.

 

[Will_Shahane]

No one looks back at sacking Chris Hutchings and says maybe we should've stuck with him as Bruce was a successful replacement. If we sack Cook and stay up it's the right call if we go down after sacking him some will say he may have turned it around and it was a mistake. History is written by the winners.

As opposed to Hutchings KDZ, surely the comparators should be Rosler and Caldwell.

Previously successful, but subsequently struggling.

Personally, I'd have given both more time.

Was Hutchings any good? Just out of interest, what were your opinions of him as a manager?