Ukraine v England: Score Predictions & Match Thread | Page 4 | Vital Football

Ukraine v England: Score Predictions & Match Thread

GrotierBranfootLeigh said:
Big test for Southgate coming up. Scotland have been weak for a long time but always give England a game because of their passion and energy. Now Scotland have their best team for 50 years there is a real danger they will beat England unless Southgate’s mob shake off their complacency.
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Did someone mention self entitlement earlier in this thread? OMG, the humiliation, the 'danger' of an away 'friendly' defeat. Come the revolution they'll be the first to be "lined up with their backs against the wall"
 
exhertsimp said:
Did someone mention self entitlement earlier in this thread? OMG, the humiliation, the 'danger' of an away 'friendly' defeat. Come the revolution they'll be the first to be "lined up with their backs against the wall"
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If you know any Scots at all you will know that no match against Scotland is ever a friendly. Most England fans have no sense of entitlement at all and can see how vulnerable Southgate’s teams really are
 
We've a mixed bag really. We have bang average goalkeeping options, the defence is sub par. We have wonderful riches in midfield (defensively and attacking) and we have one of the world's top strikers at the peak of his powers.......but we're screwed up top if he gets injured.

Southgate's problem is to decide how attacking he can be with that keeper and defence, which ironically probably isn't helped by having too many quality midfielders clouding his judgement.

Do I think Maguire and Henderson should be anywhere near a starting 11; absolutely not. But then you have to ask what is the alternative to Maguire currently, and Southgate seemingly sees him as somebody reliable and proven within his side. I can begrudgingly let him off with Maguire but with all those midfielders at his disposal, even allowing for having half an eye on that defence I simply cannot countenance Henderson on any level. Declan Rice really is such a good player, it's almost like having one and a half players in the holding role as it is.

The end result is that Southgate sometimes seems unsure of letting off the proverbial handbrake due to his cautious manner. I personally don't think we are better than a top four world side (no disgrace in that) but I would rather see us having a go in tournaments and getting knocked out in the semis than playing it safe to achieve the same outcome.
 
Cricklewoodimp said:
Whilst he can be frustratingly cautious, Southgate has the second highest win percentage of any England manager, behind only Fabio Capello.
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Both set up their teams to play a boring, rigid style and both won the square root of fleck all. Abundance of riches in the top 6 positions and he plays Jordan Henderson, that should be a sacking offence alone. Southgate’s lack of game management cost us against Croatia, Italy and France in the last 3 big tournaments and were the about the first big tests of each tournament. He is a nailed on average Middlesbrough manager who has somehow got the best job in world football but he ticks so many of the brown nose the FA boxes.
 
I understand people saying about 'entitlement' because of Southgate's tournament record but I am a bit lukewarm on him personally.. The fact other England teams and managers have been a bit poor prior does not make him suddenly amazing and I'm not sure the tournament record is that impressive bar beating teams you'd expect to beat then losing when you play someone good.

World Cup 2018 - semis, but lose to the first good team you play having pumped Panama and limped past Colombia.

Euros in 2021 - you get a couple of decent sides to play but all at Wembley. Germany arguably the one stand out moment of the whole reign - but they've also been in transition for a while and turfed out of the last two world cups in the groups. Then a chance to win a tournament at home and go 1-0 up then invite Italy on for 118 minutes, let them have all the ball and just sit in before the inevitable happens.

World cup 2022 - beat appalling Welsh, Iran sides - draw 0-0 with USA. Play well against a Senegal team where only two players would get in the England squad and one of them is injured. Lose to the first good team you play.

I am sure the argument will be well you beat what is put in front of you but a lot of the top sides have been a mess over the last few years and they still beat us when we have to play them and when it matters.

This Euros is a massive opportunity now - Italy and Germany have been poor and sacked managers. Spain have not got back to their domination of a decade ago and don't have forwards of the same level (better forward players than some that have started for them can't get in our squads). Portugal in theory in transition away from Ronaldo but carrying on with him for now. We will rightly be favourites up there with the French. Would I back us though? Probably not.

I sympathise that we are a CB short but if you ask how the best managers in world football would manage this team I suspect they wouldn't be managing a team with the likes of Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Grealish, Maddison, Rashford, Kane like this. A lot of things in the world are a bit dreary - is it too much to have a national side that tries to get the best out of some of the best forward players in Europe rather than setting up not to get beat and then getting beat by the first good team we play?
 
johnolbe said:
Both set up their teams to play a boring, rigid style and both won the square root of fleck all. Abundance of riches in the top 6 positions and he plays Jordan Henderson, that should be a sacking offence alone. Southgate’s lack of game management cost us against Croatia, Italy and France in the last 3 big tournaments and were the about the first big tests of each tournament. He is a nailed on average Middlesbrough manager who has somehow got the best job in world football but he ticks so many of the brown nose the FA boxes.
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How do you rank the best job in world football? Certainly isn’t one that attracts the best coaches in world football.
 
Red Wimp said:
How do you rank the best job in world football? Certainly isn’t one that attracts the best coaches in world football.
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I guess it has the pros of :

1. Being extremely well paid. I think the consensus was he was second highest salary at the last world cup (£5m a year ish). So as an international job it's certainly very good.
2. Has become much easier to qualify with the depth of England's pool of talent so get to try things between tournaments
3. Expectation got lowered especially under Hodgson and getting beat by Iceland/not getting out of a WC group - and then Allardyce lasting a game - so only way became up.
4. Investment in grass roots, St Georges Park and FA structures mean massive talent pipeline and advantage over other nations - now seen by all the players coming through and success at youth levels.

Downsides of:

1. Lot of media attention and pressure
2. England haven't won anything for ages
3. Not loads of time with the players to get ideas across tactically compared to a club job.

I guess a lot of the top managers are in club football rather than international but don't think that makes the England job a bad one.
 
Rasenimp said:
I understand people saying about 'entitlement' because of Southgate's tournament record but I am a bit lukewarm on him personally.. The fact other England teams and managers have been a bit poor prior does not make him suddenly amazing and I'm not sure the tournament record is that impressive bar beating teams you'd expect to beat then losing when you play someone good.

World Cup 2018 - semis, but lose to the first good team you play having pumped Panama and limped past Colombia.

Euros in 2021 - you get a couple of decent sides to play but all at Wembley. Germany arguably the one stand out moment of the whole reign - but they've also been in transition for a while and turfed out of the last two world cups in the groups. Then a chance to win a tournament at home and go 1-0 up then invite Italy on for 118 minutes, let them have all the ball and just sit in before the inevitable happens.

World cup 2022 - beat appalling Welsh, Iran sides - draw 0-0 with USA. Play well against a Senegal team where only two players would get in the England squad and one of them is injured. Lose to the first good team you play.

I am sure the argument will be well you beat what is put in front of you but a lot of the top sides have been a mess over the last few years and they still beat us when we have to play them and when it matters.

This Euros is a massive opportunity now - Italy and Germany have been poor and sacked managers. Spain have not got back to their domination of a decade ago and don't have forwards of the same level (better forward players than some that have started for them can't get in our squads). Portugal in theory in transition away from Ronaldo but carrying on with him for now. We will rightly be favourites up there with the French. Would I back us though? Probably not.

I sympathise that we are a CB short but if you ask how the best managers in world football would manage this team I suspect they wouldn't be managing a team with the likes of Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Grealish, Maddison, Rashford, Kane like this. A lot of things in the world are a bit dreary - is it too much to have a national side that tries to get the best out of some of the best forward players in Europe rather than setting up not to get beat and then getting beat by the first good team we play?
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Still beats getting knocked out of the group stages of a major tournament, not even qualifying or consistently failing to get past the quarters of a major tournament even when we do qualify.

Not sure what else Gareth can do to earn the respect of some fans to be honest. Doesn't really matter what he does or who he plays it just won't be good enough for some until we win a major tournament.

I'd take boring our opponents to death on the way to winning a tournament a la Portugal any day of the week...
 
Sincilbanks said:
Still beats getting knocked out of the group stages of a major tournament, not even qualifying or consistently failing to get past the quarters of a major tournament even when we do qualify.

Not sure what else Gareth can do to earn the respect of some fans to be honest. Doesn't really matter what he does or who he plays it just won't be good enough for some until we win a major tournament.

I'd take boring our opponents to death on the way to winning a tournament a la Portugal any day of the week...
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I mean so would everyone, but boring our opponents to death on the way to another exit as soon as we play someone good not so much. We literally just got knocked out in the quarters!

I think it has been a good basis - hard to beat. Not humiliating losses. But I also think it's slightly ridiculous to just say, well it's better than the Steve McLaren or Hodgson eras, so it's great, as if there are zero other variables at play.

And yeah - I think this squad should probably win a tournament. It should certainly be aiming to win the Euros as bar France I don't think anyone has comparable depth.
 
Rasenimp said:
I mean so would everyone, but boring our opponents to death on the way to another exit as soon as we play someone good not so much. We literally just got knocked out in the quarters!

I think it has been a good basis - hard to beat. Not humiliating losses. But I also think it's slightly ridiculous to just say, well it's better than the Steve McLaren or Hodgson eras, so it's great, as if there are zero other variables at play.

And yeah - I think this squad should probably win a tournament. It should certainly be aiming to win the Euros as bar France I don't think anyone has comparable depth.
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Results. End. Of....
 
johnolbe said:
Last time I looked Southgate hadn’t filled this criteria, unless you are happy with only beating teams ranked below us and fluffing our lines when it mattered. If results. End. of. was the only criteria he would not still be England manager
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He's come far closer than any previous manager since Alf Ramsey or Terry Venables in terms of getting the team to win a tournament both of whom could only do it on home soil. We have shed several monkeys which were previously on the back of England teams along the way and I don't think there is another English manager out there who could have got more out of this team. There are plenty of top notch teams losing to smaller fry in major tournaments all the time. Last world cup Mexico, Belgium, Germany and Uruguay all went home in the group stages. Spain got knocked out by Morocco in the group of 16.

Are we a better team than Mexico, Uruguay or Spain? I'm absolutely not convinced that we are.
 
Sincilbanks said:
He's come far closer than any previous manager since Alf Ramsey or Terry Venables in terms of getting the team to win a tournament both of whom could only do it on home soil. We have shed several monkeys which were previously on the back of England teams along the way and I don't think there is another English manager out there who could have got more out of this team. There are plenty of top notch teams losing to smaller fry in major tournaments all the time. Last world cup Mexico, Belgium, Germany and Uruguay all went home in the group stages. Spain got knocked out by Morocco in the group of 16.

Are we a better team than Mexico, Uruguay or Spain? I'm absolutely not convinced that we are.
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Absolutely 100%, zero doubt, we are a better team than Mexico (!) and Uruguay with miles more depth than both. In the case of Mexico - can you name one player from their squad who would get in England's? They drew with Uzbekistan yesterday! Uruguay have a few decent players, and a couple of particularly excellent midfielders in Valverde and Ugarte (and now a brilliant manager) and always punch above their weight having a tiny population, but they have zero depth.

The amount of money invested in English football, the success of our youth teams and based on the standard of players we have coming through - they are absurd comparisons.

Spain is a fairer comparison - who are in transition, lost to Scotland recently and are pretty short on good forward players. I think we are better than the Spanish at this moment even if we haven't been in recent history. We have the best squad in Europe I reckon, alongside the French at least with bench forward options who'd get in pretty much every other team, only let down by missing one quality CB to play next to Stones.
 
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