The end of off-side debates is near...

[Spursex]

Automated offside system set to be used at Club World Cup and Qatar 2022

exclusive
Martyn Ziegler, Chief Sports Reporter
Tuesday October 26 2021, 3.00pm, The Times


Trials of the semi-automated system are taking place this season and the technology could be introduced at next year’s Club World Cup

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ed-at-club-world-cup-and-qatar-2022-75tvkl8q9




The firm Hawk-Eye has told Fifa that its technology to detect offsides automatically is “ready to go” and it is on course to be used at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar next year.
Fifa is set to deliver an update on the latest results of semi-automated offside technology development at a meeting tomorrow of the International FA Board’s (Ifab) technical and football panels, according to insiders with knowledge of the meeting.
Hawk-Eye’s system sends an instant message to the video assistant referee (VAR) who will then judge whether the player detected as being offside is interfering with play.


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The company has been holding non-live trials this season in England using the skeletal tracking system it has in place at the stadiums of the four English clubs playing in the Champions League. Camera and computer technology tracks players’ movements as well as the ball and artificial intelligence measures whether an attacker is offside at the instant the ball is kicked.

Fifa has been told by Hawk-Eye that it believes it has developed a system that is “ready to go” and it will now be a decision for the world governing body to approve it. There could be a dry run of semi-automated offsides at the Club World Cup in the United Arab Emirates in February — it was first tested at the same tournament earlier this year — before the World Cup in Qatar in November next year. Hawk-Eye will also have the necessary technology in place at all of the clubs in Italy’s Serie A for the second half of the season if needed.


Referees chiefs in England are hopeful that it can be introduced into the Premier League for the 2023-24 season.
Automated offside systems use camera and computer technology to track players’ movements as well as the ball and insiders say it should be more accurate than the VAR offsides.

A fully automated system would involve the referee being sent a message when a player is offside but the favoured first step is a semi-automated alternative in which the VAR receives the message and makes the judgment about interfering with play.


more here: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ed-at-club-world-cup-and-qatar-2022-75tvkl8q9




The Hawk-Eye system will track 29 points on a player’s body and is only 0.5 seconds behind live play.

 

[Walthamstow wanderer]

Wow , another tool to help them rule over a game that has been ruled over for the last hundred years without outside help .

I just hope they are being paid less and less every time AI takes over .
Scrap the kin lot and get back to proper refereeing by proper referees .
The game is is getting less and less funny every season .
I find all this pathetic , not warranted , and an absolute joke .

 

[Departed]

Wow , another tool to help them rule over a game that has been ruled over for the last hundred years without outside help .

I just hope they are being paid less and less every time AI takes over .
Scrap the kin lot and get back to proper refereeing by proper referees .
The game is is getting less and less funny every season .
I find all this pathetic , not warranted , and an absolute joke .

Agreed. Tech takes the fun out of it. Other than goals.

However, it is getting tougher and tougher to get people to referee at any level in any sport because of the ridiculous amount of abuse they take. So the intent is to try and take some heat off of them.

 

[freundorfoe]

This looks far superior to VAR for judging an offside so I'm all for it. If they're going to insist on using tech, at least make it fit for purpose.

 

[Walthamstow wanderer]

Agreed. Tech takes the fun out of it. Other than goals.

However, it is getting tougher and tougher to get people to referee at any level in any sport because of the ridiculous amount of abuse they take. So the intent is to try and take some heat off of them.

Sorry mate , no-one takes more abuse during the game than the poor sod on Hackney Marshes at 10-30 on a cold wet Sunday morning in November , normally without a linesman of any description and the best mates of the players threatening from the touch line .
Nobody , but nobody takes any heat off of them .
These Prem guys are kin professionals , molly coddled , trained in every respect and protected from all and sundry.
I’m not having it that they should be treated like prima donnas .

if they can’t take control of the game with all the help they get and with all the assistants they have they shouldn’t be out there .

 

[Departed]

Sorry mate , no-one takes more abuse during the game than the poor sod on Hackney Marshes at 10-30 on a cold wet Sunday morning in November , normally without a linesman of any description and the best mates of the players threatening from the touch line .
Nobody , but nobody takes any heat off of them .
These Prem guys are kin professionals , molly coddled , trained in every respect and protected from all and sundry.
I’m not having it that they should be treated like prima donnas .

if they can’t take control of the game with all the help they get and with all the assistants they have they shouldn’t be out there .

Every ref at every level takes abuse. And they get paid shit....at kids games.

 

[muttley]

If they are going to implement this, then they have to make a massive rule change.

I believe the rules state that there is an offside position and an offside offence. The rules also state that level is not an offside offence.

All the shit we've had for the last 2-3 years is because IFAB never admitted that the rules needed to be changed. They knew that the very surgical VAR couldn't accomodate for level and they knew that most footballer stakeholders want level to be onside. It wasn't that long ago you needed to see fresh air between the striker and the defender to be offside.

We now have to educate next generations of footballers not to think like we did. Shame really.

Additionally, they now have the technology where they can tell that a right back on the touchline isn't impacting play when he or she is playing other players onside in the middle. It's a farce that a the attacking team can be classed as not impacting play whereas every member of the defensive team can be, regardless of their lateral position.

 

[Walthamstow wanderer]

Every ref at every level takes abuse. And they get paid shit....at kids games.

80 …….These are not kids games .
They are played by every age from under 14 to the thirty year and older, thugs in a lot of games . Pissed in a lot of the afternoon games .
I was paid my bus fare ,,which was the way Hampshire FA worked out the payment , when taking games where I got my tyres slashed ,,two of them , for booking one of the home team star players .
I was not alone in receiving such treatment , the verbal abuse every week was a joy to hear , and that tyre slash or similar punishments , wasn’t a one off by any stretch of anyone’s imagination …….
.

There was a time when the Laws of football appertained to EVERY LEVEL of the game .

The professional referees , and I laugh every time I see that , have made themselves look ridiculous with every point to their ear while looking into space , every square drawn into the air and pointing like a lunatic at some part of the pitch , , every jog to the monitor and returning like some victorious general
from the front , every spray line painted on the pitch , every warning for the line dancing goings on at every corner or free kick , every law they ignore , such as foul throws , gaining twenty yards at throw ins , players not retreating ten yards at free kicks , ducking out of giving penalties , not enforcing the laws if it involves a sending off …….
Dont tell me it doesn’t happen , or ask for instances , it happens in every game .
If they can’t run a game , even with all the shit they get to help them , they shouldn’t be out there .
Just don’t tell me that premier league referees need all this help .
They are bringing the game into disrepute with their incompetence, …….and please don’t compare their abuse to that of the ref on Hackney Marshes .

 

[Departed]

80 …….These are not kids games .
They are played by every age from under 14 to the thirty year and older, thugs in a lot of games . Pissed in a lot of the afternoon games .
I was paid my bus fare ,,which was the way Hampshire FA worked out the payment , when taking games where I got my tyres slashed ,,two of them , for booking one of the home team star players .
I was not alone in receiving such treatment , the verbal abuse every week was a joy to hear , and that tyre slash or similar punishments , wasn’t a one off by any stretch of anyone’s imagination …….
.

There was a time when the Laws of football appertained to EVERY LEVEL of the game .

The professional referees , and I laugh every time I see that , have made themselves look ridiculous with every point to their ear while looking into space , every square drawn into the air and pointing like a lunatic at some part of the pitch , , every jog to the monitor and returning like some victorious general
from the front , every spray line painted on the pitch , every warning for the line dancing goings on at every corner or free kick , every law they ignore , such as foul throws , gaining twenty yards at throw ins , players not retreating ten yards at free kicks , ducking out of giving penalties , not enforcing the laws if it involves a sending off …….
Dont tell me it doesn’t happen , or ask for instances , it happens in every game .
If they can’t run a game , even with all the shit they get to help them , they shouldn’t be out there .
Just don’t tell me that premier league referees need all this help .
They are bringing the game into disrepute with their incompetence, …….and please don’t compare their abuse to that of the ref on Hackney Marshes .

That's not my point Walt. My point is that the quality of refereeing at the PL level is shit because there are so few referees in the pipeline for two reasons. First a lot of referee attrition is due to the fact that at some point they say to themselves I am fed up with taking this shit and I am done. The second is amateur referees aren't paid anough to make it worthwhile to stick with it so the best, who we would all like to keep refereeing, quit. Then we end up with 2nd rate hack's who love the power.

 

[muttley]

That's not my point Walt. My point is that the quality of refereeing at the PL level is shit because there are so few referees in the pipeline for two reasons. First a lot of referee attrition is due to the fact that at some point they say to themselves I am fed up with taking this shit and I am done. The second is amateur referees aren't paid anough to make it worthwhile to stick with it so the best, who we would all like to keep refereeing, quit. Then we end up with 2nd rate hack's who love the power.

Just so not true. There are referees everywhere. I watch Combined Counties standard every couple of weeks (9th tier) and I see some great refs who have no technology.

The whole PGMOL thing was created 20 years ago to make sure the most talented referees and assistant referees bubbled to the surface. They take significant funding out of the PL, FL and FA pots to monitor hundreds of referees up and down the country. Their job is to ensure that the cream rises to the top. They fail miserably at that.

PGMOL is now just a political, defensive and arrogant organisation. Most of them need walking out of the door so they can get back to the charter that our hard earned money pays for.

It should actually be about the great refs from the Hackney Marshes being elevated over idiots like Mike Dean and John Moss because the process is working.

It has also got worse under Mike Riley's leadership. His answer to challenging his team about awful decisions on the pitch was to hide behind VAR. He could have used it to improve his team's performance. That tells you everything about the culture at PGMOL.

 

[Departed]

Just so not true. There are referees everywhere. I watch Combined Counties standard every couple of weeks (9th tier) and I see some great refs who have no technology.

The whole PGMOL thing was created 20 years ago to make sure the most talented referees and assistant referees bubbled to the surface. They take significant funding out of the PL, FL and FA pots to monitor hundreds of referees up and down the country. Their job is to ensure that the cream rises to the top. They fail miserably at that.

PGMOL is now just a political, defensive and arrogant organisation. Most of them need walking out of the door so they can get back to the charter that our hard earned money pays for.

It should actually be about the great refs from the Hackney Marshes being elevated over idiots like Mike Dean and John Moss because the process is working.

It has also got worse under Mike Riley's leadership. His answer to challenging his team about awful decisions on the pitch was to hide behind VAR. He could have used it to improve his team's performance. That tells you everything about the culture at PGMOL.

Massive shortage of referees in every sport here.

 

[Pompey Yid]

A bloody good debate between you two, Walt n 80, I should add muttleys input here, in every way, for me you are all correct.

Walt HFA reffing, I failed on it because basically I booked so many players for gobbing off at me even dishing out loads of sending off's, at my pull to the HFA bosses meet I was bollacked because of it, and before they could say "you have failed" our system I told them in Anglo Saxon where to go and where to stick their heads.

The laugh is I reffed a good number of games Sat/Sun afternoons/mornings after that, not nominated but asked by teams who had not been given nominated refs from the PFA or HFA, they who asked me would say, its because we like you and you equally take no shit lol! But in the end I got banned by the two Associations lol!

 

[Spursex]

Afraid, I'm all for it.

 

[freundorfoe]

It's a farce that a the attacking team can be classed as not impacting play whereas every member of the defensive team can be, regardless of their lateral position.

for the same reason level *should* be onside I don't want to see this changed. It's a defenders job to make sure they're not playing a striker onside if their defensive line moves up without them. Catching defenders sleeping is how a lot of brilliant goals are scored, and the technology is meant to be there to make the game fairer - not less exciting. Plus if a through ball is played and a RB hugging the touchline sprints back to the middle after a striker takes a heavy touch and ends up getting block on a shot / pass they'd be impacting play even if their original starting position was ajudged to be too far from the action to make an impact. I think this is a whole can of worms that doesn't need opening.

I fully agree with your other point though. But I'd imagine this tech will make it easier to say when a striker is level than VAR which to this day hasn't addressed that they don't have the frame rate to properly account for a precise moment a ball leaves a players foot, meaning the stupid lines they draw are irrelevant/far too thin.

 

[Gary Onedaysoon]

I'd be 100% behind this if it was a fully automated system whereby the referee is instantly (or 0.5 of a second) sent a message if the player is offside. It would remove that biggest bugbear of mine regarding VAR - the interminable delay waiting for VAR to make a decision whilst dissecting to a millimetre whether a forward has infringed.

Under a semi-automated system, which sends the message to the VAR instead, we'll still have a long delay whilst they adjudge whether a player is interfering with play.

Interfering with play: another ill-judged and very poorly thought out law. I'd scrap it altogether. It will give clarity to the offside law and with the new technology obviate the need to refer to VAR altogether.

I really do dislike the offside law. In so many cases the decision is marginal as to whether the player is offside. And in those cases the advantage gained by the forward is so infinitesimal that there is no material advantage at all. It's where a player unfairly gains a material advantage that we want the laws to intervene. But of course with offside there has to be a line somewhere so I don't know how you get round this.

 

[muttley]

for the same reason level *should* be onside I don't want to see this changed. It's a defenders job to make sure they're not playing a striker onside if their defensive line moves up without them. Catching defenders sleeping is how a lot of brilliant goals are scored, and the technology is meant to be there to make the game fairer - not less exciting. Plus if a through ball is played and a RB hugging the touchline sprints back to the middle after a striker takes a heavy touch and ends up getting block on a shot / pass they'd be impacting play even if their original starting position was ajudged to be too far from the action to make an impact. I think this is a whole can of worms that doesn't need opening.

I fully agree with your other point though. But I'd imagine this tech will make it easier to say when a striker is level than VAR which to this day hasn't addressed that they don't have the frame rate to properly account for a precise moment a ball leaves a players foot, meaning the stupid lines they draw are irrelevant/far too thin.

Perhaps my articulation. The defender I'm talking about could be playing 2 players offside, but they aren't impacting play according to the modern rule, but he is to the one that scores. It's pathetic in my opinion. If a back four unit can work as a cohesive unit and play any player offside then they deserve to get the free kick. If FIFA are too dumb to realise that, then they need to make the "impacting play" rule the same for both sides. Imagine when they draw the red and blue lines they only counted players that could impact play.

I would still like it put back to "one player offiside, whole team offside". I don't care if they are lying on the floor with a broken leg and a dislocated shoulder. The team is offside.

 

[Walthamstow wanderer]

That's not my point Walt. My point is that the quality of refereeing at the PL level is shit because there are so few referees in the pipeline for two reasons. First a lot of referee attrition is due to the fact that at some point they say to themselves I am fed up with taking this shit and I am done. The second is amateur referees aren't paid anough to make it worthwhile to stick with it so the best, who we would all like to keep refereeing, quit. Then we end up with 2nd rate hack's who love the power.

I understand where you are coming from , 80.
I will come back and continue our conversation when I have time mate . Sorry . Hope you don’t think I’m ignoring you .