Forest vs PGMOL | Page 11 | Vital Football

Forest vs PGMOL

stenroach said:
VAR is fine, it's just not being implemented properly.

It should work, but for reasons no one can explain it doesn't.
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At least half the problem now is the rules. Under the original rules EVERY player was either onside or offside each time the ball was played. Now you can get a player running offside who can be deemed "not to be interfering with play" even if , for example, a player goes out to mark him , and a different (onside) player scores. Another example is where a player stands offside, comes back onside, then scores. All these decisions then get subjective. As the great BC used to say, if a player isn't interfering with play, what's he doing on the pitch !

Offside should be clearcut. Handball is another matter. The rules need clearing up on that, and player contact. As for corners etc , most of them are turning into wrestling matches !
 
Anyone who thinks unconscious bias would not be a factor is kidding themselves. You only have to listen to supporters views on a game from any team in any division to hear it. If there's a marginal or 50/50 decision of course you subconsciously give the benefit of any doubt to your preferred team or outcome.

It's very different to conscious bias, but it's still bias. Putting any match official into a game where they have a fans interest in the result is a really poor decision.
 
I very much agree about corners and wrestling matches. Brentford against Luton did an interesting move. They all stood in 6 yard box, some on goal line. if Luton player wanted to push infront they let them. Just before the ball was about to be kicked and after the ref had blown for kick to be taken they moved on mass to just beyond the penalty spot then as ball kicked moved toward the goal. This did several things. It took the wrestling for position out of the equation. It also meant the defence was flat footed. Brentford had moved away from goal and defenders were following them but a sudden change of direction meant the defence was out of position. They scored two goals from corners. Simples.
 
LynxRed said:
Anyone who thinks unconscious bias would not be a factor is kidding themselves. You only have to listen to supporters views on a game from any team in any division to hear it. If there's a marginal or 50/50 decision of course you subconsciously give the benefit of any doubt to your preferred team or outcome.

It's very different to conscious bias, but it's still bias. Putting any match official into a game where they have a fans interest in the result is a really poor decision.
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I used to ref Rugby matches. Very low level. It was the home teams responsibility to find a ref. They were often an old player. Often the ref was harder on their own team than the opposition. They knew exactly what tricks their own players got up to. Football can learn a lot from Rugby, both codes have better and clearer VAR.
 
LynxRed said:
Anyone who thinks unconscious bias would not be a factor is kidding themselves. You only have to listen to supporters views on a game from any team in any division to hear it. If there's a marginal or 50/50 decision of course you subconsciously give the benefit of any doubt to your preferred team or outcome.

It's very different to conscious bias, but it's still bias. Putting any match official into a game where they have a fans interest in the result is a really poor decision.
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Unconscious bias is also cheating. This really is a woke phrase which Ive heard a couple of times in the context of this situation. He either cheated or he was incompetent. There is no grey area
 
Imagine if Coote gives Luton a last minute penalty this Saturday. Coote has been appointed by PGMOL to ref the Luton game. Coote is a Notts County fan. No one is suggesting anything about Coote and his integrity. Are PGMOL deliberately testing Forest?
 
Polly 433 said:
Imagine if Coote gives Luton a last minute penalty this Saturday. Coote has been appointed by PGMOL to ref the Luton game. Coote is a Notts County fan. No one is suggesting anything about Coote and his integrity. Are PGMOL deliberately testing Forest?
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That's a joke. Surely this cannot be allowed
 
toms said:
Unconscious bias is also cheating. This really is a woke phrase which Ive heard a couple of times in the context of this situation. He either cheated or he was incompetent. There is no grey area
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Don't be so soft. It's not a woke phrase and it's a very real thing. When someone has a personal interest in an outcome it can affect their decision making and judgment. Every single one of us does it when we watch Forest. It's also not cheating.

Imagine taking a marginal incident involving two teams and showing it to three sets of people. Group 1 are all fans of Team A, Group 2 are all fans of Team B, and Group 3 are all neutral football fans. Groups 1 and 2 will overwhelmingly side with their team and produce opposite majorities, and Group 3 will be far more evenly split down the middle. Every time.

It's not cheating, but your judgement is impaired by unconscious bias. The argument that these refs are professionals doesn't cut it either. Doctors are professionals, but they still aren't allowed to treat their own family members because they lack objectivity. They are prone to over-treat or under-treat the patient, and medical boards the world over don't feel these professionals can simply put it to one side. So why would PGMOL expect referees to be able too?
 
LynxRed said:
Don't be so soft. It's not a woke phrase and it's a very real thing. When someone has a personal interest in an outcome it can affect their decision making and judgment. Every single one of us does it when we watch Forest. It's also not cheating.

Imagine taking a marginal incident involving two teams and showing it to three sets of people. Group 1 are all fans of Team A, Group 2 are all fans of Team B, and Group 3 are all neutral football fans. Groups 1 and 2 will overwhelmingly side with their team and produce opposite majorities, and Group 3 will be far more evenly split down the middle. Every time.

It's not cheating, but your judgement is impaired by unconscious bias. The argument that these refs are professionals doesn't cut it either. Doctors are professionals, but they still aren't allowed to treat their own family members because they lack objectivity. They are prone to over-treat or under-treat the patient, and medical boards the world over don't feel these professionals can simply put it to one side. So why would PGMOL expect referees to be able too?
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If it affects your judgment it amounts to cheating in the context of a decision in a football match. You've got a screen in front of you. Let's take the challenge on CHO. Walk me through the unconscious bias scenario there.

The statements," I didn't see it" or "I didn't think it warranted a review" are also the biggest tells I've ever seen-both allow plausible deniability. Another form of cheating

Not sure why you are using doctors as an analogy. Most wish to save their patients. Now you could make an argument that it's possible that Ukraine's top heart specialist treating Putin after a heart attack might trigger "an unconscious bias moment"! Ofcourse, it would never happen because Putin wouldn't allow it because, he would rightly think there was a heightened risk of "unconscious bias" (LOL)

A Luton supporter should not have been a VAR in the match given the context of a major relegation battle. Thats pure common sense and Webb should have really known better and heeded Clattenburg's warning

I'm sorry I cant accept in a sporting context that UB exists - either there is incompetence when things go wrong or the person in question has allowed his/her feelings to alter a decision that would otherwise be made. As a person controls their own feelings and has the choice to go against them and do the right thing , that's full blooded cheating in my book
 
toms said:
Unconscious bias is also cheating. This really is a woke phrase which Ive heard a couple of times in the context of this situation. He either cheated or he was incompetent. There is no grey area
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I am genuinely staggered at how someone who is so black and white, such a stickler for rules, ever voted for someone like Boris Johnson. How does that even work?
 
toms said:
If it affects your judgment it amounts to cheating in the context of a decision in a football match. You've got a screen in front of you. Let's take the challenge on CHO. Walk me through the unconscious bias scenario there.

The statements," I didn't see it" or "I didn't think it warranted a review" are also the biggest tells I've ever seen-both allow plausible deniability. Another form of cheating

Not sure why you are using doctors as an analogy. Most wish to save their patients. Now you could make an argument that it's possible that Ukraine's top heart specialist treating Putin after a heart attack might trigger "an unconscious bias moment"! Ofcourse, it would never happen because Putin wouldn't allow it because, he would rightly think there was a heightened risk of "unconscious bias" (LOL)

A Luton supporter should not have been a VAR in the match given the context of a major relegation battle. Thats pure common sense and Webb should have really known better and heeded Clattenburg's warning

I'm sorry I cant accept in a sporting context that UB exists - either there is incompetence when things go wrong or the person in question has allowed his/her feelings to alter a decision that would otherwise be made. As a person controls their own feelings and has the choice to go against them and do the right thing , that's full blooded cheating in my book
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Sorry Toms, that's my fault for forgetting how readily you miss the point. I'll say my view of cheating is a deliberate action. Yours is clearly different, and I'm going to leave it at that.

I've used doctors as an analogy because they are also professionals, but ones who are not allowed to practice their profession in cases where they are not impartial. A precedent, you might say, for arguing the same should be true of referees.

You're arguing as if I'm defending the decisions at Goodison. I'm not. I'm being critical of the media rhetoric that referees are professionals and therefore can put their bias to one side. They can't, they're human just like the rest of us.
 
LynxRed said:
Sorry Toms, that's my fault for forgetting how readily you miss the point. I'll say my view of cheating is a deliberate action. Yours is clearly different, and I'm going to leave it at that.

I've used doctors as an analogy because they are also professionals, but ones who are not allowed to practice their profession in cases where they are not impartial. A precedent, you might say, for arguing the same should be true of referees.

You're arguing as if I'm defending the decisions at Goodison. I'm not. I'm being critical of the media rhetoric that referees are professionals and therefore can put their bias to one side. They can't, they're human just like the rest of us.
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Is it not a deliberate action to do the wrong thing?

Your first sentence is just passive aggressive abuse...and I for one hopes OKD bans you as he clearly said he would not tolerate abuse but I will not be smashing the report button
 
toms said:
Unconscious bias is also cheating. This really is a woke phrase which Ive heard a couple of times in the context of this situation. He either cheated or he was incompetent. There is no grey area
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Unconscious bias is not cheating. The word ‘unconscious’ makes that rather clear. Maybe you should apply for a job in the civil service - there are a couple of good courses that show exactly how it works and how subtle or obvious it can be.

Of course you would have to pass the test which may be a problem for you..
 
toms said:
Is it not a deliberate action to do the wrong thing?

Your first sentence is just passive aggressive abuse...and I for one hopes OKD bans you as he clearly said he would not tolerate abuse but I will not be smashing the report button
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If you think it warrants a report, you smash that alert button as hard as you like. You did completely miss the point, and seemingly do so deliberately. I'm happy to stand by it. In fact, you continue to miss the point, and continue to misunderstand subconscious bias.
 
LynxRed said:
If you think it warrants a report, you smash that alert button as hard as you like. You did completely miss the point, and seemingly do so deliberately. I'm happy to stand by it. In fact, you continue to miss the point, and continue to misunderstand subconscious bias.
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I didnt miss the point chap. You seem to think that someone choosing the former of the following two choices- preferred route (doing something or omitting to do something for the good for your club-eg Luton ) v the right decision-is or can be unconscious bias and not a deliberate act and cheating. That's truly nonsense. Deep down you know when you take a choice

As for the rest of it -it was light humour, given recent events. You rather missed the point chap. Sorry about that
 
Basha73 said:
Unconscious bias is not cheating. The word ‘unconscious’ makes that rather clear. Maybe you should apply for a job in the civil service - there are a couple of good courses that show exactly how it works and how subtle or obvious it can be.

Of course you would have to pass the test which may be a problem for you..
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Dont do that Toms.

You'll be sent on "diversity" courses and before you know it you'll be arguing why gender neutral bathrooms are a good thing and its Racist to suggest otherwise.
 
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