valenciagill
Vital Football Hero
No mention on the news of the disorder in Brixton last night 
White lives matter - n/g
- Thread starter wxgill
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nitram77
Vital 1st Team Regular
The sad thing is that LGBT, Black Lives, Female equality, all seem to highlight the difference between people, rather than look for unity.
Forget the colour and sex and look at a scan of the inside, one heart' two lungs, liver, kidneys, how many people could tell the difference between x-rays of different groups.
Forget the colour and sex and look at a scan of the inside, one heart' two lungs, liver, kidneys, how many people could tell the difference between x-rays of different groups.
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
They highlight the inequalities that exist because as you rightly say, underneath the skin or behind the gender or sexuality, we are all the same. Yet despite all being part of the same whole, some people get discriminated against based upon the superficial differences.
If you really want unity amongst humanity you should support those striving for equality. Only with equality can there be true unity and harmony.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
Whatever the debate about which side of the argument is more racist, WK is still the only poster who it has been necessary to temporarily remove from the board due to lack of respect and constant abuse.
We all have our preconceptions about public figures. If we decide to like and defend them, we come out with stuff like "well, they had a bad childhood" "what they really meant was" or "what they have to put up with", etc, etc. At the very least, we are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
If they are generally not liked, or they represent the opposite view to our own - effectively in the opposite camp, we can not wait to condemn them when nothing has been proven, as in aspects of the Cummings saga. Either that, or we label them stupid.
To be able to defend any slogan that only gives benefit to only one race - like "Black Lives matter" is, by definition, racist. Yes, there are mitigating reasons and an underlying cause - equality, but I think it defeats its object and has given other racists the opportunity to start WLM.
Singling out one race does nothing to aid equality. That is why something like "All lives matter" or "Every life is precious" would have been far better, particularly if you are advocating peace.
We all have our preconceptions about public figures. If we decide to like and defend them, we come out with stuff like "well, they had a bad childhood" "what they really meant was" or "what they have to put up with", etc, etc. At the very least, we are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
If they are generally not liked, or they represent the opposite view to our own - effectively in the opposite camp, we can not wait to condemn them when nothing has been proven, as in aspects of the Cummings saga. Either that, or we label them stupid.
To be able to defend any slogan that only gives benefit to only one race - like "Black Lives matter" is, by definition, racist. Yes, there are mitigating reasons and an underlying cause - equality, but I think it defeats its object and has given other racists the opportunity to start WLM.
Singling out one race does nothing to aid equality. That is why something like "All lives matter" or "Every life is precious" would have been far better, particularly if you are advocating peace.
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valenciagill
Vital Football Hero
No mention on the news of the disorder in Brixton last night
I take that back... It's now 'Breaking News' on Sky. 15 police officers injured , vehicles damaged.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
The point really is mate, that you are entrenched in your views and he is entrenched in his views.
You are both 100% right and 100% wrong,.
Ask yourself, why should your opinion be any more valid than his?
Sure, there is injustice and inequality in the world.
There always has been and always will be.
As Pete Townsend said - meet the new boss, the same as the old boss.
I've found in my experience, that those who consider themselves the most tolerant are often the least tolerant.
That goes some way to explaining why the far left are far more vitriolic verbally whereas the far right are more likely to punch you in the face.
A fist is worth a thousand words ?
Many anarchists preach peace and harmony to the world.
Quiet a few others don't.
The guys that turn up to the anti fascist meetings are the same people who turn up to the anti G7 or whatever. They are being tracked and there is absolute evidence of this.
These guys are professional agitators and go to these events with the full intention of disruption and violence.
We know this because you can see that they are fully prepared in advance.
So, the question that must be asked is, is their violence any more justified that the violence of the far right?
You may well say it is.
Others who less politically motivated, will say to the contrary.
So, in summary, many would see little difference between your bigotry and his bigotry.
First the good news. I;m glad to read that you are (or claim to be) rowing back from your previous extreme, aggressive positions....
.....but there is only one interpretation of this.
a) "right wing" (You still haven't defined it .... let alone "far" right")
but more significantly
b) "racist" ?
(There's no point in asking you to apologise, because of your blind prejudice at anyone who can defend Conservatives, supports genuine Free Speech and individual responsibility before the collective..
And I don't want you banned. I'm quite content for you to persist with your abuse and aggressive bullying - so it can be exposed - along with your persistently unsupported claims about people you "hate".)
.....but there is only one interpretation of this.
On what basis am I;
a) "right wing" (You still haven't defined it .... let alone "far" right")
but more significantly
b) "racist" ?
(There's no point in asking you to apologise, because of your blind prejudice at anyone who can defend Conservatives, supports genuine Free Speech and individual responsibility before the collective..
And I don't want you banned. I'm quite content for you to persist with your abuse and aggressive bullying - so it can be exposed - along with your persistently unsupported claims about people you "hate".)
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
Let's try thinking about this from a different angle.
Let us suppose that in a while League 1 and League 2 clubs are preparing to restart playing football matches against each other. But then, just as this is about to happen there is another outbreak of the virus. Many clubs that had hung on for dear life are now facing bankruptcy and oblivion.
The Premier league and Championship clubs, meanwhile, are all still solvent, largely because of their privileged position in the top echelons of the league. They know that once the virus is beaten they will resume playing. Unlike the league 1 and league 2 clubs which are facing disaster.
In response to the situation fans of clubs in league 1 and 2 join together to form a pressure group and campaign under the slogan, "lower league clubs matter". They're not for a moment suggesting that the top clubs don't matter, it's just that it is palpably obvious that those clubs don't actually need any financial assistance. Or if they do, it pales into insignificance when compared with the small clubs in the bottom two divisions.
Disgruntled supporters of clubs such as Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal then respond with claims that 'All Clubs Matter', or worse still, 'Premier League Clubs Matter"
It would be as if those supporters of the top clubs just didn't understand the reality of the situation. Yes, of course All Clubs Matter, that's precisely why the lower league clubs mustn't be allowed to fold. Premier League Clubs Matter?! Not really, not unless all the clubs matter. And if all clubs really do matter then the immediate attention should be paid to ensuring that the lower league clubs matter, because if they were to fold and die, the entire league would suffer.
It'd be helpful all round if the supporters of the top clubs stopped being so insular, took a broader perspective, and then championed the cause for all by supporting the lower league fans who are fighting for their club's survival.
alphabet_king
Vital 1st Team Regular
Buddhas opinion is no more 'valid' than anyone elses. However what we can say is that its based off far more sound logic and rationale. The myth that opinions cant be wrong is, as i say, a myth. If you base your opinion on poor logic, or bad premises then your opinion is simply wrong. The whole point of these boards is to discuss why we think the others opinions are goong wrong logically, however tarian vg, pledge seem unable to apply logic adequately. They make wild conclusions from unsound premises and will not listen when these issues are explained to them. This is why i have mostly given up arguing with them. You just cant reason with them. Its too emotive a subject and their deep entrenched views mean they cannot apply logic or reasoning.
Sorry... but of course people are entitled to have different views.
If they are based on "faith and guesswork", then I hope they would have the good sense to say "probably", "I believe" etc - and then a constructive discussion could be had.
But when they:
- want to "change the world" - and do so by exaggerating one incident into something supposedly "endemic"
- accuse whole groups of people (e.g. Tories, Brexiteers, whites, whoever) of all having impure motives.
- support violent, disruptive, destructive, one-sided campaigns
- all based on unsupported assertion,
..... then "faith and guesswork" isn't enough.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
That is exactly my point AK.
They are right in 'their mind' and nothing seems to be able to change this.
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
I've never said that you are right wing or racist. You defend racists and those on the right but I concede that that in itself doesn't make you a right wing or racist. Perhaps you're just a sympathiser with or an apologist for these unsavoury and reactionary views. I wouldn't and couldn't know for sure.
No, no point at all in asking me to apologise. That would only make me laugh.
I don't hate any individual. The things I hate are more abstract than that. For example, I don't hate you, Tarian. But I do hate your modus operandi. I think it is dishonest and involves manipulation, distortion and pseudo-intellectualism, all in an effort to confuse, sidetrack and derail.
alphabet_king
Vital 1st Team Regular
Correct. Hence why ive mostly given up trying to change it. You just cant reason with some people, they will never accept clearly explained logic.
Really ?
I've never met any of these fabled "far right" - despite them being supposedly everywhere - so I can't comment on their use of fists.
.
By contrast, I've met or been right up close to a fair few "far left" - and fists - or more likely objects have been thrown by several - alongside aggressive pushing and shouting by the majority.
False analogy ( as much as the use of "cancer" or "one person's house on fire to make this argument).....
...and only begins to work if ALL of the "lower league clubs" are in a similar position and NONE of the top clubs are in difficulty ?
This analogy assumes that ALL black people have the same bad experience of the police or anyone else - and NO people of other races do.
Which is why "ALL lives matter" should have been the cry.
If even one Championship or PL club was in difficulty - then "All clubs matter" would have greater moral authority.
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
It's not about either of us being able to convince the other that they're wrong, as you say, that aint gonna happen.
It's more about what other people think. Lots of people have decided to 'ignore' certain posters. As I asked before, how many people have 'ignored' me. I know only of Bert. Yet several posters have said that the fab four are on their 'ignore' list.
This doesn't mean that people agree with me or my viewpoint. But it does suggest that they certainly DO NOT agree with the right-wing quartet, and that they find those views abhorrent and don't want to be exposed to them, hence they're 'ignored'.
All I'm trying to do is provide some balance to Tarian's outlandish assertions. I worry that if I leave them unchecked some might think I have no answer to his bullshit. I'm not particularly bothered if Tarian himself thinks that, because I know it to be untrue and his opinion of me is of no consequence to me. But I do worry that others might glean from my silence that Tarian must be correct. He is not.
And it's not about people just taking the same old sides. The very fact that AK and I - two individuals with very different politics and outlook on life who could argue for ages about loads of different things - are so united on this issue speaks volumes. AK wouldn't just back me up out of some kind of loyalty. And vice versa. We agree about this issue because it is so fucking obvious. We might disagree about the whys and wherefores, and we might disagree about what the best solution may be. But we both can see there is a problem in society (particularly US society) and we both recognise that something needs to change.
Only a blind person or a belligerent racist would even try to deny the existence of racism, or the urgent necessity to address the inequality and injustice that this racism engenders and perpetuates.
alphabet_king
Vital 1st Team Regular
You must live in a dream world tarian. You having a laugh? Youve never met them?
You are in denial mate. We all know what we're talking about here. Theres a reason why the statue protectors were made up of many (not all) people who claim to be a 'football lad' etc.
Almost all of the people i know who are more vocal on social media about anti blm are those i know have either in the past, or are still involved in regular violence in and out of football. Thats not a coincidence.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
I've never met David Beckham but I don't doubt he exists
I can tell you with 100% certainty that organised far right groups exist in the UK, now, today.
Anyway , I'm out on this this.
The problem with debating with a fool is that he has years of experience.
ThreeSixes
Vital Football Hero
Ok, a bit of critical thinking, I can do that. I think your example, merging the entire lower divisions together is a bit spurious. The slogan is "black lives matter" not "poor lives matter" or "oppressed lives matter".
I think a more accurate scenario would be a "1st Division teams matter" slogan. This would have the same affect as "lower' clubs protesting about unfair treatment from "higher clubs", but would also specifically exclude other teams that are ostensibly in the same position.
Buddha
Vital Football Hero
Listen Tarian, if the slogan had been 'All Lives Matter' I wouldn't have been arguing against that. It is quite clearly true.
The only problem with the slogan 'All Lives Matter' is that it has been adopted by the far right in opposition to the anti-racist movement.
It is similar to how I feel about the St George's flag. Back in the '80s whenever the English national team played the supporters would wave Union Jacks. This used to irritate me and I often moaned about it, asking why the English don't embrace the St. George's flag. For me, that is more relevant to England than the Union Jack.
So, in a way I was pleased when the St George's flags started appearing. Unfortunately the flag was co-opted by the far-right and as a result I lost any affinity with the flag that I may have once had.
Yes, 'All LIves Matter' would be a better slogan. Yes, the St Geoorge's flag is more appropriate for the English national team. Unfortunately the right wing got hold of both and corrupted the symbolism. As a result the slogan and the flag are tainted, they start to represent something different to what they should, and I therefore reject them.
