Cook needs to go! | Page 9 | Vital Football

Cook needs to go!

moonay said:
Quite simply KDZ .......... the art of the possible.

I don't disagree that his second season went a little "tits up", but in that first season, he gave me one of my top 5 best days watching Latics at the Etihad, ......... and got me to watch us in a second ....yep, second FA Cup Semi Final. I still can't believe it. :wahey:

I agree that the wheels came off, and if the reports saying that (some of) the players were against him were true, then I guess that he may never have turned things around.

Regardless, if we had given Rosler till the spring, instead of taking on Mackay, as it turned out, it couldn't have turned out any worse.
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It was Holt that was leading the dressing room unrest against Rosler, i have been told by a person who was there, doing things like having the Dads Army tune as his ringtone and changing other players phones to this, then getting them to ring in the middle of team briefings etc. Undermining his authority because he thought he was a bigger name and knew better.
 
Kenny Morris said:
It was Holt that was leading the dressing room unrest against Rosler, i have been told by a person who was there, doing things like having the Dads Army tune as his ringtone and changing other players phones to this, then getting them to ring in the middle of team briefings etc. Undermining his authority because he thought he was a bigger name and knew better.
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Wasn't Holt not in the dressing room, training with the kids when he was here and out on loan most of the time?

No doubt Rosler and Holt didn't get on but i've got to be honest i don't think Holt would be around the 1st team enough to lead any rebellion.
 
moonay said:
Oh, give over Will ........ you sound like my kids did when they were 4 years old, continually asking the same question all the time.

I don't mean to be rude, but I think I've explained - either in this thread, or other ones, & specifically in the to & fro with MiW - why I think that Cook should be given more time to succeed at this level.
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Fair enough. The only reason I keep asking is because those wanting Cook to stay seem to be justifying this by assertions that ‘he’s a good manager’, ‘I rate him’, or through references to other managers that have succeeded when given time. Thing is, I don’t actually get to see many games and I know that a lot of users on here (yourself included), do. So the reason for my continual asking of the question was genuine curiosity; I just wondered if you had seen anything in terms of Cook’s tactics or player motivation levels, et cetera that may have led to your having the view that he should stay. Honestly, I wasn’t being deliberately insolent, difficult or annoying, and my apologies if it came across that way. Please don’t think I’m arguing for the mere sake of being ‘right’; there would be nothing that would give me greater pleasure than to see us win tonight, stay up, Cook to be here for many years to come, and everything I said to be confirmed as absolute rubbish. I was just genuinely interested, and thought maybe you or those agreeing with you had seen something that I hadn’t. Exiled’s point about the spirit in the dressing room was very valid, but I would argue that football is essentially a results driven business, and if this goodwill in the dressing room isn’t being translated into results, it is ultimately futile.

“moonay said:
I don't think I've ever said I "rate" Cook at this level .........as he's never been here before ..........just like quite a few of the players. That said, given time, I think he (and they) will succeed. They've put in a number of good performances to show that ......... unfortunately, just not enough of them.
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Just playing Devil’s Advocate here; we had some good performances under Joyce (e.g. the 2-1 home win against Brentford in January 2017). The existence of occasional good performances doesn’t necessarily mean that Cook is the right man to take us forward imo.
 
Will_Shahane said:
Fair enough. The only reason I keep asking is because those wanting Cook to stay seem to be justifying this by assertions that ‘he’s a good manager’, ‘I rate him’, or through references to other managers that have succeeded when given time. Thing is, I don’t actually get to see many games and I know that a lot of users on here (yourself included), do. So the reason for my continual asking of the question was genuine curiosity; I just wondered if you had seen anything in terms of Cook’s tactics or player motivation levels, et cetera that may have led to your having the view that he should stay. Honestly, I wasn’t being deliberately insolent, difficult or annoying, and my apologies if it came across that way. Please don’t think I’m arguing for the mere sake of being ‘right’; there would be nothing that would give me greater pleasure than to see us win tonight, stay up, Cook to be here for many years to come, and everything I said to be confirmed as absolute rubbish. I was just genuinely interested, and thought maybe you or those agreeing with you had seen something that I hadn’t. Exiled’s point about the spirit in the dressing room was very valid, but I would argue that football is essentially a results driven business, and if this goodwill in the dressing room isn’t being translated into results, it is ultimately futile.



Just playing Devil’s Advocate here; we had some good performances under Joyce (e.g. the 2-1 home win against Brentford in January 2017). The existence of occasional good performances doesn’t necessarily mean that Cook is the right man to take us forward imo.
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I think a lot of people like Cook personally and that gives him massively more benefit of the doubt compared to say Joyce who wasn't popular.

Look at the way our fans reacted to the bad periods under different managers - The bulk of the fan base were on Malky, Joyce and Coyles case almost immedietly after they arrived with little benefit of the doubt or time to settle in but when Rosler or Caldwell lost the plot most of our fan base were reluctant to level the same criticism for results and displays equally as bad. Even now after Rosler and Caldwell failure at at lower levels would suggest we were right to move them on some of still think of them being let go as a mistake.

If Cook had Joyce's personality I don't think he'd have anywhere near as much support if it was identical results and performances. It's meant to be a results business but at Wigan general likability and personality go a long way with our fan base. It's human nature that likable people will generally get more favourable treatment but I'm not sure if it is like this at every club or if our benefit of the doubt stretches longer but I suspect it could do.
 
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Will_Shahane said:
Fair enough. The only reason I keep asking is because those wanting Cook to stay seem to be justifying this by assertions that ‘he’s a good manager’, ‘I rate him’, or through references to other managers that have succeeded when given time. Thing is, I don’t actually get to see many games and I know that a lot of users on here (yourself included), do. So the reason for my continual asking of the question was genuine curiosity; I just wondered if you had seen anything in terms of Cook’s tactics or player motivation levels, et cetera that may have led to your having the view that he should stay. Honestly, I wasn’t being deliberately insolent, difficult or annoying, and my apologies if it came across that way. Please don’t think I’m arguing for the mere sake of being ‘right’; there would be nothing that would give me greater pleasure than to see us win tonight, stay up, Cook to be here for many years to come, and everything I said to be confirmed as absolute rubbish. I was just genuinely interested, and thought maybe you or those agreeing with you had seen something that I hadn’t. Exiled’s point about the spirit in the dressing room was very valid, but I would argue that football is essentially a results driven business, and if this goodwill in the dressing room isn’t being translated into results, it is ultimately futile.



Just playing Devil’s Advocate here; we had some good performances under Joyce (e.g. the 2-1 home win against Brentford in January 2017). The existence of occasional good performances doesn’t necessarily mean that Cook is the right man to take us forward imo.
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Nail on head there Will. I keep asking the same question as to why they feel he will succeed and keep getting the same vague, non evidential based answers back, which is just really a 'gut' feel. Anyway let's hope in contradiction to the evidence that we are toasting six points by Saturday evening and we can park the matter until May before discussing his long term credentials.
 
Will, no problem.

KDZ, you probably have a point there.

MiW, give over, you've been given lots of "evidential" stuff......... it's just that we're not consistent in delivering it, and there hasn't been enough of it. No argument there.
 
moonay said:
Will, no problem.

KDZ, you probably have a point there.

MiW, give over, you've been given lots of "evidential" stuff......... it's just that we're not consistent in delivering it, and there hasn't been enough of it. No argument there.
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So logically if there is plenty of evidence for hypothesis A, but there hasn't been enough to support hypothesis B, then why put your chips on the latter?
 
Made in Wigan said:
So logically if there is plenty of evidence for hypothesis A, but there hasn't been enough to support hypothesis B, then why put your chips on the latter?
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Probably, if I'm absolutely honest, it's partly down to what KDZ said, and partly gut feel. That, and not wanting to get rid of yet another manager after only a short tenure.

Simple.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
Will, from your previous posts I believe you are an intelligent young man, and as such I am not going to insult your intelligence but do you genuinely believe that a club with a hard core support of 8-9k and losing money every season can afford the likes of Karanka or Carvalhal. More importantly is do you really think either of them would be interested in managing a small town club like ours. The other names mentioned have been sacked by their clubs for not being deemed good enough to manage them.
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First of all, thank you very much for the compliment and from what I have seen, you clearly know your stuff as well!

I concede that perhaps I was a little overly optimistic in my suggestions of Karanka and Carvalhal as potential managers. The only reason I included them was because, I’m unsure as to exactly how rich these new owners are, and more importantly, how much they’re willing to spend. That’s a very valid point regarding the difficulty of attracting such managers to the club, and, in retrospect, I do agree with your point there.

However, I’m not sure if I’m 100% on board with your next point about the other aforementioned managers being sacked due to their inadequacy in managing their former clubs. Obviously, what you’re saying is true; but just because they have failed in their previous job, it doesn’t necessarily indicate that they won’t be the right fit for us. Take Steve Bruce, for example. He was loathed towards the end of his tenure at Villa yet he has worked wonders at Wednesday, taking them from the brink of relegation to play-off contenders in a matter of two months (as I so often hear about ?). Additionally, I would point you towards other past successes of the managers in question. At the end of last season, Darren Moore took over West Brom and nearly rescued them from relegation in what appeared to be a hopeless situation; defeating Man United and winning ‘Manager of the Month’ in the process. In 2014-15, Gary Rowatt transformed Birmingham City from a side apparently destined for the drop, to a comfortable mid-table team. Can you see the parallels between the situations of the teams I have mentioned, and our own situation? Perhaps these managers are just what we need at the moment? It’s a little unfair to mention as I didn’t include him in my list, but Harry Redknapp is another name mentioned on here, who is adept at steering teams clear of the drop (as exemplified through his stint at Birmingham, last season I believe). Essentially, the point is that there are some affordable managers available, that specialise in situations that we find ourselves in, and so we shouldn’t use the fact that they have failed in their previous jobs (where expectations and circumstances were different) to rule them out completely. Christiansen also had considerable success in his earlier days at Leeds.

“TRUE BELIEVER said:
What Moonay and others are trying to point out, and I personally agree, is that sometimes, given time, managers do turn things around. Fergie was a case in point as it was rumoured he was one game away from the sack yet went on to be the most successful manager in recent history. There is nothing to say that bringing in a new face will stop the rot, indeed our recent history shows that our previous attempts at this have failed. In my opinion we stick with PC and give him the time to develop as a manager and as I have said on another thread hope that he learns from his mistakes and becomes a better manager for it.
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I do agree with the principle of giving managers time. However, I just worry that it is simply too risky keeping Cook now. A relegation could be catastrophic for the club, and I just do not have the faith that he will be able to keep us up, unfortunately.

I would dispute the point that there is “nothing to say that bringing in a new face will stop the rot”. Surely the track records of the aforementioned managers, e.g. Rowatt, Redknapp and Moore, in turning around other teams’ bad form, would indicate that perhaps they can do the same here? At the moment, I believe there is a greater chance of Cook taking us down, than one of the previously mentioned managers doing so, if they are brought in now, that is. It’s true that changing manager hasn’t worked for us in the past, but I would point you towards the fact that, when Mackay and Joyce came in, the situation in terms of our league position was far more dire than it is now. Moore in particular comes across as an excellent motivator. Finally, I’d like to think that Cook is learning from his mistakes, but it hasn’t seemed that way since September to be honest. My opinion is that, if he were truly capable of learning, we would have seen at least some signs of his doing so by now.
 
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As I said Will, you show intelligence beyond your age. You have put together an excellent reply to my post and raised a couple of interesting points, one being the amount of money available to the club. My opinion on this is that there is very little available otherwise Will Grigg would not have been sold, the owners clearly want to reduce our losses this year and that indicates to me there is no money pot available.

I have on other threads explained my reasoning for not wanting to change the manager at this moment in time, the primary reason being that it is not financially viable. I believe that there is no guarantee that the new manager bounce would save us and in our desperation to get a new man in place we again make a poor decision and waste money that the club clearly does not have. Some have advocated getting in a man like Redknap to do a short term job, however I think the cost would be prohibitive and carry no certainty. I would rather wait until the season ends when the dust settles and there is more clarity about where we are and then make the decision to stick or change.

Going back into the lower league would not be catastrophic as you say, for sure none of us want that, however that is what league football is about, some clubs go up others go down. We had a good season in league one last year and are having a poor one this year in the Championship. What will happen next season? I don't know. What I am certain about is that I will still be buying my season ticket along with many others and supporting the club I have supported since I was a young boy.

Results went against us last night, and we are now only out of the relegation places on goal difference, however, that could all change with the next round of fixtures. Hopefully seeing how precarious our position is will be the spur needed to get the players motivated and a win against Bolton will lift the spirits on here. A loss on the other hand will no doubt increase the calls for Cook to go, and I no doubt will have egg on my face, but until that happens I remain optimistic.
 
You've got to smile. There was always a chance of it happening. Success. Mediocrity. Failure. In various walks of life, the (already fine) line dividing those 3 outcomes is often finer than we'd like to think.

There's no denying some of the facts:
- we've played poorly in more games than those in which we've played well.
- regardless of whether it was tactical or not, our approach to games appears to have got more negative and cautious in recent months ....... not so much sin miedo, more mucho miedo.
- Our inability to free ourselves of the away-game hoodoo seems to have fed the lack of belief and self doubt within the players

So. Folk have seen it coming for months. The writing was on the wall. Action should have been taken before the New Year.
:rolleyes:

Aye. they've been proven right. They knew best all along. They win the big orange. Those supporters hoping for - and expecting? - a recovery were being naive. Delusional. Happy Clappers, looking through rose tinted specs.

I supported Martinez. He went. I supported Rosler. He went. I supported Caldwell. He went. I'm supporting Cook. He's still here........... though he prpbably won't be unless we teach a harsh lesson to our neighbours from the UniBol on Saturday.

So, maybe me, and others like me are the problem. We don't see when a manager is on the road to failure ..........except that the vast majority are on the road to failure for most of their career. How many times do we see a Manager win promotion (messiah), only to struggle the following season in the higher division (pariah), leading to their sacking. Then, the whole process starts all over again. .......and again ......... and again.

Personally, I'm tired of it. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a Manager who lasts for a whole two seasons? Hell, the last 6 haven't ......... 7 if Cook goes! If we do go down (and that's still a big if), then Cook's record stands us in good stead to bring us back up. It'll also be a chance to blood some of the many youngsters who seem to be coming to maturity in the next couple of seasons.

So, if anyone "told me so", I don't give a toss. Football isn't always a game where you can judge the future based on looking at the past. If anyone should know that, then Tics fans certainly should. Form doesn't always inform what will happen in future.

Munich? Personally, I hope that Cook not only went to watch the game (piss up or not) but I hope he got IEC to pay for the rest of the staff and players to go with him. Togetherness will be required from now on in. Playing for each other. Playing for the club. Playing for the fans. Playing for themselves. Playing to maybe one day see themselves in a big game,where they need to have the guts to go out and win it.

That starts on Saturday.
 
Great post Moonay. :clap:

The problem is that those who say "I told you so" are usually also the ones who are least likely to hold their hands up and admit they were wrong when the evidence proves them to be.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
Great post Moonay. :clap:

The problem is that those who say "I told you so" are usually also the ones who are least likely to hold their hands up and admit they were wrong when the evidence proves them to be.
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That's bollocks. I often say I hope I'm proven wrong and have said so when I have been. Sadly I'm not often wrong in regards these matters.

You often get some of the clappers going on about hindsight when reality dawns, some of them just slink away. Speaking of which, what's happened to Mr Morris and The Chat?
 
moonay said:
Togetherness will be required from now on in. Playing for each other. Playing for the club. Playing for the fans. Playing for themselves. Playing to maybe one day see themselves in a big game,where they need to have the guts to go out and win it.
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You should do the teamtalk on Saturday - and I'm not being sarcastic - im sure you could put over a better motivational message than the shite they've probably been listening to recently.
 
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