Israel/Palestine
- Thread starter impede
- Start date
Sincilbanks
Vital Football Hero
"I tend to the view that if you are absolutely confident which side of the Arab-Israeli conflict is in the right, then you almost certainly have a limited and incorrect grasp of both the history and the region..."
Rasenimp
Vital Football Legend
Noticed the woke mob such as... tory MPs starting to say not now.
Netanyahu’s tactics are weakening Israel
Hamas’s jihadist ideology must be defeated – but Israel’s methods will only boost that hate-filled creed
www.telegraph.co.uk
Israel has gone beyond self-defence in Gaza, Tory MP Alicia Kearns says
The Foreign Affairs Committee chair says she thinks Israel has "lost its moral authority" in Gaza.
www.bbc.co.uk
For me, having tangible and achievable aims and having progress towards them would at least make some level of sense. "Israel has the right to defend itself" starts to ring hollow when you kill thousands upon thousands of civilians. Trying to (unsuccessfully lets be honest - Hamas is still going to exist when the IDF leave Gaza) completely eradicate Hamas while killing and maiming thousands of children, mothers, brothers, sisters... it's not a traditionally successful way of ensuring a population then don't have a grudge against you and will be keen to co-exist peacefully in the near future is it?
Doesn't really matter if you think one side is better than the other or whatever - the current path is not good.
Rasenimp
Vital Football Legend
I think this is true, but it's easier to have a view on the question set in the opening post.
DonnyImp
Vital Squad Member
To late for that, Hamas told them to hate Israel and all them Jews years ago!.
Sincilbanks
Vital Football Hero
I think you probably need to do a bit of research into the Israeli foreign policy approach called "mowing the lawn" then to understand why they are doing what they are doing.
Which doesn't mean I'm defending Israel and their current approach, but if you don't understand this policy or their "twin clock" approach to fighting their Palestinian and Lebanese opponents then you're lacking vital context and information on the likely outcome of this offensive...
impede
Vital 1st Team Regular
I am aware of that but world history guarentees that will not happen. The greater long term strategy would not to be the common enemy of all Palestinians, moderates and extreme, but play it softly softly so that Hamas became the enemy of the Palestinians. Fighting the IRA and Eta did not bring peace. Sitting down with the more moderate elements and talking peace sidelined and isolated that extremists.
Or you could just say something really stupid like the post above yours.
Sincilbanks
Vital Football Hero
The IDF has never been a force with any concept of "proportionate" or "commensurate". If this is the first time you have been shocked by the IDF (and by extension the Israeli governments) sledgehammer approach to dealing with Palestinian opposition then you can't possibly have been taking any notice of the last umpteen years of conflict in the Middle East. IDF atrocities in the occupied West Bank are, literally, a daily occurrence, to the point where a substantial number of IDF soldiers refuse to serve there...
Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses
Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights. Whether it’s a child imprisoned by a military court or shot unjustifiably, or a house...
"Israeli troops killed well over 2,000 Palestinian civilians in the last three Gaza conflicts (2008-09, 2012, 2014) alone. Many of these attacks amount to violations of international humanitarian law due to a failure to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians. Some amount to war crimes, including the targeting of apparent civilian structures."
Which isn't to say Palestinians haven't done exactly the same, of course they have and regularly too.
It's just simply naive to pick a side in this conflict and try and work out who is doing what to who and whether it's right or not. This approach is the reason the US are slow-boating any censure of Israel while sending plane fulls of ammo to them, it's the reason why the Iranians send technology and armaments to Hamas.
There isn't a right or wrong, it's just two sets of people hell bent on the destruction of the other and nothing and no-one is going to stop them until one of them is finally erased from the planet. That's the tragedy of it, internationally we could shut this conflict down if we wished to, but everyone is simply too busy picking a side and trying to make them win like it's some kind of bizarre sports event. Meanwhile thousands and tens of thousands of ordinary humans are wiped off the face of the earth for the sake of some god or other who it would seem would rather continue a never ending war based on a series of perceived grievances stretching back thousands of years than actually think about a way forwards that involves even the slightest iota of compromise...
Sincilbanks
Vital Football Hero
So what does it matter if the Israeli response is "proportionate" or not? We both seem to acknowledge that it's irrelevant to the Israeli strategy? What does saying that solve? Nothing....
There are no "moderate elements" in either the Israeli government or the Palestinian Gaza strip to negotiate with, that's the stupidity of it...
impede
Vital 1st Team Regular
There are plenty of moderates in Israel and Palestine. They are just drowned out by the extremists on both sides who perpetuate this cycle of violence. There will even be more moderate people withing Hamas but it is an organisation that brooks no dissent so they keep their heads down and play along. The only way out of this is for one side to break the cycle - and the only hope is for the Israeli people to kick out their extremist government as Palestinians do not have that power. Given a period of relative peace, I hope that there would eventually be a groundswell of a popular movement to unseat the extremists that control the Gaza Strip. The original question is relevant as I wanted to see what people think about what is corrently happening. The relevance of that is that Israel becoming a world pariah, might be the push they need to take a different course and public opinion here will go someway to shaping our government's attitude.
DonnyImp
Vital Squad Member
Oh dear, another insult. I doubt israel will give an inch for a good while yet. Of course hamas could just do the decent thing and give up the hostages or the ir bodies!.
Sincilbanks
Vital Football Hero
Well the last moderate Israeli running their government was assasinated, by an Israeli...
impede
Vital 1st Team Regular
If you ever provided anything that was not just a shallow sound bite, I might have more to say. You will note that I engage with people who have something coherent to say.
Also noted how Israel killing thousands of innocent civilians is the fault of Hamas but anything Palestinians do is not the fault of their oppressor
hulloutpost
Vital Champions League
DonnyImp
Vital Squad Member
Took their bloody time!. The hamas videos were there for all to see!. They were quick at the UN to see the IDF brassing up the hamas scum though!. Will they get South Africa to take them to the International Court of Justice?
G-Of-Lincs
Vital Reserves Team
Isn’t it time for everyone to understand that this is a fight to the death? Whichever side you are on one side wants to slaughter all of the other side. Whilst the majority of the other side are prepared to slaughter back.
SalfordImp
Vital Football Legend
Btw please do your research and know the differences of the IRA... be it it PIRA or IRA.
Novice keyboard warrior mistake
