Here we go!

[Pope John XXIII]

You are right about this. No one will believe it. We will have to leave the ECHR and then have the people around the administration willing to implement the ramifications. That won’t happen

Toms, this has been explained to you.

Leaving the ECHR is that magical "Jeremy Clarkson common sense" solution that isn't common sense at all, doesn't work and doesn't have any appreciation of the complexities.

You are making life harder for your own government

This is from the ONS

The provisional estimate of total long-term immigration for year ending (YE) June 2023 was 1.2 million, while emigration was 508,000, meaning that net migration was 672,000; most people arriving to the UK in the YE June 2023 were non-EU nationals (968,000), followed by EU (129,000) and British (84,000)

39% of those came to study. That is to keep our universities going.

9% (so, more or less 100,000) came through humanitarian visas- this is basically Afghans, Ukrainians or people from Hong Kong. These are govenrment choices. This came down from 19% the previous year.

33% came on work visas- the vast majority on health and care visas- to work in the NHS and in social care, which this govenrment has chosen not to tackle.

48% of the immigration was dependents; that means wives and children of people with proper visas.

You can slash immigration in half an a stroke by not allowing those.

However, you would smash it probably by 3/4 doing that because the majority of people coming on these visas simply would not come. Hooray! Toms says.

But there are severe economic consequences to this. The NHS currently cannot cope with staffing needs; not enough British people go into NHS roles. That isn't because they are lazy or don't want to; a lot can't. The grade requirements at A Level (a highly unreliable qualification now the government has consistently fiddled with it) are sky high for almost any medical role; even a nurse will usually need 3 B grades. This forces us to embrace overseas staff with HIGHLY dubious educational equivalence and often weak English language skills.

The care crisis would depend because British people really do not want to do that for the wages on offer. There are other minimum wage jobs that are far more attractive. To get British people to do it you need to pay more than poverty wages.

And for our universities, the overseas students are keeping them afloat. If you deny dependents visas then the Singaporean woman who is accepted on a masters here, and is paying in full, will have a choice between Britain, where she can't bring her child, or the Netherlands, where she can. Only one choice.

None of what we have described are "harmful" immigrants.

Then we have the reciprocal deals. For instance, the Albania deal has been fantastically successful; we struck a deal to just send them back. Young men in poor areas coming here because of tiktok advertising and ending up in carwashes and the grey economy. We send them back. But they are a member of the ECHR and it has been made clear that this underpins the deal; just like with Brexit, if you leave, then the deal that actually prevents a flood of migrants will end.

Exactly same goes for Romania

The hard right have made everyone obsessed with numbers that have no context. I don't understand why the Tories haven't simply changed the way they calculate it to take students and their dependents out for a start; that would make the figures look completely different and make it harder for the likes of Rice and Farage peddling anger to make political hay

 

[Pope John XXIII]

So why not trigger a by election instead by stepping down?

He is stepping down.

The next election may only be in July

Trust me Tom, the last thing a Tory supporter wants now is more by-elections

And you can absolutely say the same thing of Lee Anderson. Did you?

 

[toms]

Toms, this has been explained to you.

Leaving the ECHR is that magical "Jeremy Clarkson common sense" solution that isn't common sense at all, doesn't work and doesn't have any appreciation of the complexities.

You are making life harder for your own government

This is from the ONS

The provisional estimate of total long-term immigration for year ending (YE) June 2023 was 1.2 million, while emigration was 508,000, meaning that net migration was 672,000; most people arriving to the UK in the YE June 2023 were non-EU nationals (968,000), followed by EU (129,000) and British (84,000)

39% of those came to study. That is to keep our universities going.

9% (so, more or less 100,000) came through humanitarian visas- this is basically Afghans, Ukrainians or people from Hong Kong. These are govenrment choices. This came down from 19% the previous year.

33% came on work visas- the vast majority on health and care visas- to work in the NHS and in social care, which this govenrment has chosen not to tackle.

48% of the immigration was dependents; that means wives and children of people with proper visas.

You can slash immigration in half an a stroke by not allowing those.

However, you would smash it probably by 3/4 doing that because the majority of people coming on these visas simply would not come. Hooray! Toms says.

But there are severe economic consequences to this. The NHS currently cannot cope with staffing needs; not enough British people go into NHS roles. That isn't because they are lazy or don't want to; a lot can't. The grade requirements at A Level (a highly unreliable qualification now the government has consistently fiddled with it) are sky high for almost any medical role; even a nurse will usually need 3 B grades. This forces us to embrace overseas staff with HIGHLY dubious educational equivalence and often weak English language skills.

The care crisis would depend because British people really do not want to do that for the wages on offer. There are other minimum wage jobs that are far more attractive. To get British people to do it you need to pay more than poverty wages.

And for our universities, the overseas students are keeping them afloat. If you deny dependents visas then the Singaporean woman who is accepted on a masters here, and is paying in full, will have a choice between Britain, where she can't bring her child, or the Netherlands, where she can. Only one choice.

None of what we have described are "harmful" immigrants.

Then we have the reciprocal deals. For instance, the Albania deal has been fantastically successful; we struck a deal to just send them back. Young men in poor areas coming here because of tiktok advertising and ending up in carwashes and the grey economy. We send them back. But they are a member of the ECHR and it has been made clear that this underpins the deal; just like with Brexit, if you leave, then the deal that actually prevents a flood of migrants will end.

Exactly same goes for Romania

The hard right have made everyone obsessed with numbers that have no context. I don't understand why the Tories haven't simply changed the way they calculate it to take students and their dependents out for a start; that would make the figures look completely different and make it harder for the likes of Rice and Farage peddling anger to make political hay

Still out. Train better and educate better. That solves the problem. The notion that British people can’t do this and make this work is fundamentally flawed.

I’m actually for immigration but it should be highly skilled and wealth driven . We have enough people here who are are able and who can deliver services and keep the universities full

Flooding the UK with more and more people is not the answer

 

[toms]

He is stepping down.

The next election may only be in July

Trust me Tom, the last thing a Tory supporter wants now is more by-elections

And you can absolutely say the same thing of Lee Anderson. Did you?

I did , see above response to Cornflakes

 

[Woanz]

weak tiny rishi isn’t now not ruling out July election which is good as the Tories simply have to go they are utterly incompetent, shameless, thieves, nonces & ***** that have broken almost everything, stolen almost anything that isn’t nailed down, have made this country racist again & flooded the rivers & oceans with shit.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Still out. Train better and educate better. That solves the problem. The notion that British people can’t do this and make this work is fundamentally flawed.

I’m actually for immigration but it should be highly skilled and wealth driven . We have enough people here who are are able and who can deliver services and keep the universities full

Flooding the UK with more and more people is not the answer

You are not listening.

British people absolutely can do medical work. But it is a choice of our government not to let them.

As I say, the grade requirements for nurses (and doctors) are far too high; higher than they need to be just for entry to the training.

It isn't remotely that people here don't want to do it; There are thousand of students every year who get 3 A*s but can't get a place on a course. There are vastly more students who want to go into medicine than there are medical school places.

This is because a) our government does not fund anywhere near enough places to meet the demand of people who want them and b) there are not the jobs for them afterwards, because the government is not funding the NHS sufficiently to have that many doctors and nurses.

For nursing we are just asking too much at the age of 17-18. You do not need A/B grade knowledge of chemistry- for centuries we have trained these on the job.

Consequently, we end up with people from overseas whose qualifications we know very little about.

For social care it is basic capitalism. You are a capitalist, right? If you want people to do an unpleasant job, it needs to be competitive in the labour market against other jobs. Social care is not.

And as for universities, this is you blocking out what you want to hear. We absolutely DO NOT have enough people to fill out universities on the level of funding that is required. This is because the government does not support them with funding. £9000 is clearly too low per student for them to operate at the international level of competition they wish, but at the same time, ok a year is more than most will ever be able to pay back

 

[toms]

I am listening and we will need a government and an underlying civil service who will do both. Inevitably there will be some losers as I will be when I’m shafted by a Labour government

 

[radfordinlondon]

You are not listening.

British people absolutely can do medical work. But it is a choice of our government not to let them.

As I say, the grade requirements for nurses (and doctors) are far too high; higher than they need to be just for entry to the training.

It isn't remotely that people here don't want to do it; There are thousand of students every year who get 3 A*s but can't get a place on a course. There are vastly more students who want to go into medicine than there are medical school places.

This is because a) our government does not fund anywhere near enough places to meet the demand of people who want them and b) there are not the jobs for them afterwards, because the government is not funding the NHS sufficiently to have that many doctors and nurses.

For nursing we are just asking too much at the age of 17-18. You do not need A/B grade knowledge of chemistry- for centuries we have trained these on the job.

Consequently, we end up with people from overseas whose qualifications we know very little about.

For social care it is basic capitalism. You are a capitalist, right? If you want people to do an unpleasant job, it needs to be competitive in the labour market against other jobs. Social care is not.

And as for universities, this is you blocking out what you want to hear. We absolutely DO NOT have enough people to fill out universities on the level of funding that is required. This is because the government does not support them with funding. £9000 is clearly too low per student for them to operate at the international level of competition they wish, but at the same time, ok a year is more than most will ever be able to pay back

my only quibble is choice suggests a genuine strategy and thought. no serious industrial policy so I have that down as another consequence of incompetence.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Also, the students that come with dependents are typically post grads who are one of the essential pillars of innovation, which makes the country a lot of money.

The next career level is a postdoc position which is similarly torpedoed by these chaotic clowns.
Recent changes are cutting our ability to recruit the best scientists into labs on temporary (typically 3 year) contracts too. They really don't know what they're doing or how much damage they are causing.


"
The new salary rules affect those entering the United Kingdom under the “skilled worker” route, in which employers sponsor the visa of a potential employee. Previously, workers had to earn at least £26,200 to be eligible for the visa; in December 2023, the government announced this threshold would rise by almost 50% to £38,700, well above what many early-career researchers earn. (The pay for a postdoc at the University of Cambridge, for instance, starts at £33,348.) Just 3 weeks before the changes came into effect on 4 April, the U.K. Home Office announced there would be a lower threshold of £30,960 for postdocs or Ph.D. holders in science, technology, engineering, or math. But the initial announcement caused chaos, says Gertjan Lucas, a behavioral strategy researcher at the Nottingham University Business School, who serves on the UCU committee for migrant members: “We’ve heard reports of universities refusing to renew contracts, even before the [April] deadline came into effect.”
"

https://www.science.org/content/article/u-k-visa-changes-imperil-recruitment-scientific-talent-policy-experts-warn

 

[in_the_top_one]

The hard right have made everyone obsessed with numbers that have no context. I don't understand why the Tories haven't simply changed the way they calculate it to take students and their dependents out for a start; that would make the figures look completely different and make it harder for the likes of Rice and Farage peddling anger to make political hay

Because the conservatives think it works for them in the same way it works for Tice/Farage.
They want the figures to be high so Toms gets upset and votes for 'the only party with a chance of power than will deal with it', as opposed to "Labour's open door policy". They've been pushing that line(/lie) for years. It's the same with the asylum backlog. No desire whatsoever for those numbers to come down. They like the number of how much the "hotels" are costing to be going UP.

 

[toms]

Because the conservatives think it works for them in the same way it works for Tice/Farage.
They want the figures to be high so Toms gets upset and votes for 'the only party with a chance of power than will deal with it', as opposed to "Labour's open door policy". They've been pushing that line(/lie) for years. It's the same with the asylum backlog. No desire whatsoever for those numbers to come down. They like the number of how much the "hotels" are costing to be going UP.

Labour opened the doors thanks to Blair. They’ll never switch the tap off because they are fundamentally on the side of globalism, open doors , all immigration is good irrespective of the adverse ramifications. Prices worth paying.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Labour opened the doors thanks to Blair. They’ll never switch the tap off because they are fundamentally on the side of globalism, open doors , all immigration is good irrespective of the adverse ramifications. Prices worth paying.

Of course, that isn't what they're saying.

However, even if we assume that to be true for a moment, is there any evidence at all that the conservatives have a different opinion? You can refer to the figures while they've been in power if that helps.

 

[paz1967]

Nobody said these are a panacea. The life cycle analyses show carbon gains, and they are what count.

but thats one one 'life cycle' option, one that doesnt take into account the million different ways we utlise them. For my own use, its a clear carbon deficit over the next ten years comparing new ev to what i currently own.
Either way, even if the long term gains are real, and dont get me wrong, they have the potential eventually, its factually a carbon debt that each new E.V starts with a a time when I question whether we should be taking any steps backwards to go two forwards when each 'debt' seemingly makes the problem exponentially worse.

 

[paz1967]

Labour opened the doors thanks to Blair. They’ll never switch the tap off because they are fundamentally on the side of globalism, open doors , all immigration is good irrespective of the adverse ramifications. Prices worth paying.

it usually has been in good throughout history

 

[paz1967]

There is plenty of work from those doing the job but very little at the top. People are doing the job despite the tools and the legislation.

The mantra of do more with less is currently do more with nothing.

The people I am responsible for are largely doing a brilliant job but I am being pressured for better results and when I push back or ask for things that might improve the situation it either falls on deaf ears or I just get told there’s no money, get on with it.

and are you getting on with it?

 

[paz1967]

Still out. Train better and educate better. That solves the problem. The notion that British people can’t do this and make this work is fundamentally flawed.

I’m actually for immigration but it should be highly skilled and wealth driven . We have enough people here who are are able and who can deliver services and keep the universities full

Flooding the UK with more and more people is not the answer

i kinda think the opposite, i hate the fact we let in trained and wealthy folk over poor folk personally. trained folk means we stopped training our own and rich folk (often the trained ones) usually suck blood from the poor folk

 

[paz1967]

What do you mean Pope? He switches 6 months (maybe less) before an election and switches to a clueless Labour Party with no material policies to speak of. Traitor or turncoat is a legitimate English word to describe such people. Or are you advocating for the banning of this word?

I mean the word corruption can seemingly be used without a care in the world.

I kinda see it as opposite of being a traitor, as in not sticking to a particular group out of tribal nonsense, just selecting the option that he feels is more beneficial for the public.
Theres millions of folk that have voted for different parties over a particular issue that they feel strongly about, is that being a traitor?

 

[Basha73]

and are you getting on with it?

I am but I am also pushing as much as I can to try and improve things. It’s what I believe a decent boss should do.

 

[in_the_top_one]

but thats one one 'life cycle' option, one that doesnt take into account the million different ways we utlise them. For my own use, its a clear carbon deficit over the next ten years comparing new ev to what i currently own.
Either way, even if the long term gains are real, and dont get me wrong, they have the potential eventually, its factually a carbon debt that each new E.V starts with a a time when I question whether we should be taking any steps backwards to go two forwards when each 'debt' seemingly makes the problem exponentially worse.

Of course the life cycle is important. You can't count the cost of making a new ev but neglect the cost of making a new petrol/diesel just because you, personally have an old petrol car that is holding up... for now. You make a good point that the cost of making vehicles is high and we should keep old vehicles going while they're in good working order. But if you were to change, your car that is doing fine should be passed to another user, whose own car may have given up the ghost. Thus, one new car is required: one ICE shuffles off this mortal coil and is replaced by an ev with low carbon emissions rather than another gas guzzler.
We're talking about systemic change.

 

[Woanz]

Labour opened the doors thanks to Blair. They’ll never switch the tap off because they are fundamentally on the side of globalism, open doors , all immigration is good irrespective of the adverse ramifications. Prices worth paying.

Bloody Beaker folk. Coming over here, rowing up the Tagus Estuary from the Iberian Peninsula in improvised rafts. Coming here with their drinking vessels. What's wrong with just cupping up the water in your hands and licking it up like a cat?