Your Views on Taking the Knee

[Mighty Bongsmon]

From taking the knee to chlorinated chicken - someone best check on Zakky’s welfare with this level of thread divergence

And on the other thread we've gone from talking about Latics takeover to quoting Winston Churchill

 

[moonay]

And on the other thread we've gone from talking about Latics takeover to quoting Winston Churchill

Given that Winston's now mentioned on this thread ..................... and I sincerely hope that this isn't taken in a racist way (though I suppose it is a stereotypical representation) it hadn't occurred to me before, but isn't it interesting that the most famous Winston is Churchill, accused (by some) of being racist, and yet at the same time, Winston is a quite common name for black men (of a certain age at least) ....................and yet, I can't think of another white man called Winston.

I'm sure there are some ......... but googling famous ones, I'd never heard of any of them.

As Steve Davies might have said .......... "interesting".

 

[jocklatic]

I meant overwhelming majority of black players. I haven’t heard or seen any voicing opposition to it, and there’s probably been hundreds of black players in English football who’ve made posts of them kneeling on social media and the like over the last few months. Dunkley, Massey, Byrne, Balogun, Lowe, Robinson, Kipre and James from last season’s squad just off the top of my head. Byrne of course was racially abused a couple of seasons ago after scoring in the last minute against Bristol City, and I believe Ivan Toney was by someone when he was at the club a couple of years ago.

I’m just of the opinion that if they see that as the most effective way to voice anti-racism, who are we to tell them otherwise? Do you think all these millionaire footballers are doing it because they’re left-wing? Of course not.

The Liverpool shirts were worn *supporting* Suarez after he’d racially abused Evra, it was the exact opposite of current events.

The Liverpool players may well have been supporting Suarez but they were also claiming he hadn't racially abused Evra...but my point was that very strong characters like Carrager, Gerrad, Kuyt, Charlie Adams to name but a few...hardly wallflower people yet they all said nothing or declined to back him due to peer pressure / dressing room pressure & imo its probably the exact same today with most of these knee taking players.

 

[ExiledViking]

Defunding the police is quite an interesting point. Have you seen the spending budgets for the police? The redirection of money needs to change. That's what they meant.

If your attitude is "if you don't like it move away" then I feel you don't really understand at all.

Oh, I understand it alright.
I understand it better than you for a start.

I've read their comical manifesto in full, and it's flaky to say the very least.

Put your trust in BLM, and anarchy will rein very shortly after, make no mistake about it...

 

[Wlatic]

I meant overwhelming majority of black players. I haven’t heard or seen any voicing opposition to it, and there’s probably been hundreds of black players in English football who’ve made posts of them kneeling on social media and the like over the last few months. Dunkley, Massey, Byrne, Balogun, Lowe, Robinson, Kipre and James from last season’s squad just off the top of my head. Byrne of course was racially abused a couple of seasons ago after scoring in the last minute against Bristol City, and I believe Ivan Toney was by someone when he was at the club a couple of years ago.

I’m just of the opinion that if they see that as the most effective way to voice anti-racism, who are we to tell them otherwise? Do you think all these millionaire footballers are doing it because they’re left-wing? Of course not.

The Liverpool shirts were worn *supporting* Suarez after he’d racially abused Evra, it was the exact opposite of current events.

Isn't the kneeling being done after the death of a very very questionable person?

 

[Wlatic]

You seem to be conveniently misinterpreting what BLM are protesting to make your argument work so we aren't all clear of fault are we?

So did BLM start riots or not? Did this all happen due to Floyd?

 

[moonay]

Isn't the kneeling being done after the death of a very very questionable person?

"Questionable"? ............... but you're not saying that he deserved to be treated like he was are you?

Maybe more to the point, please tell me that he didn't deserve to die . ......... for being "questionable".

 

[Thedriver]

Exactly Jock, personally I have no objection to any player who feels he wants to take the knee, however there are some players who are not minded to do so but are being told to for the sake of team solidarity. If a player doesn't want to participate he should not feel pressured into doing so, this defeats the object of the protest.

I know this isn't exactly related but can everyone remember how much stick James McClean used to get for refusing to wear a poppy on his shirt in Nov.

I for one respected his decision - he exercised his freedom of choice to express his view - which caused him and probably still does no end of trouble - however he was true to his view - regardless of what it cost him. He had his reasons and the right to choose not to.

The same should apply to any player / person who wants to take the knee - they should be free to do so without attracting trouble - by someone not partaking - they should not be automatically assumed to be a racist.

 

[Wlatic]

"Questionable"? ............... but you're not saying that he deserved to be treated like he was are you?

Maybe more to the point, please tell me that he didn't deserve to die . ......... for being "questionable".

That isn't for me to judge. That'll happen in the court case. Right now the police officer who knelt on him is innocent until proven guilty, thats the basis of our laws and the USA.

Floyd "deserving to die" would be coming from the point of view of someone deciding that they were going to kill him. The BLM line is that not only did someone want to kill him, but also the reason for that was because he was black and this is a regular occurrence with police.

Does this answer your bleeding heart question?

 

[moonay]

That isn't for me to judge. .

I think you already judged him when you said "Isn't the kneeling being done after the death of a very very questionable person?

Floyd "deserving to die" would be coming from the point of view of someone deciding that they were going to kill him. The BLM line is that not only did someone want to kill him, but also the reason for that was because he was black and this is a regular occurrence with police.
?

I'm not quite sure you've got this. Firstly, in this instance, the "deserving" has nothing to do with the intention of the killer, intentional or not.

Secondly, the BLM line is surely not that someone wanted to kill him ................ just that they seemingly weren't overly bothered when it became evident that they were killing him.

Note - I've nothing to do with BLM, so I can't categorically state this to be true, but as a reasonably intelligent person, it would seem to be a reasonably intelligent take on things.

Does this answer your bleeding heart question?

I think that response speaks volumes.

 

[ExiledViking]

Just a side note...

Has anyone else noticed that trouble in the country only starts when someone with a very murky past (Mark Duggan and George Floyd) gets murdered???

Yet, there was nothing when Stephen Lawrence and Damilola Taylor got murdered.

Strange... Isn't it?

 

[Wlatic]

I think you already judged him when you said "Isn't the kneeling being done after the death of a very very questionable person?



I'm not quite sure you've got this. Firstly, in this instance, the "deserving" has nothing to do with the intention of the killer, intentional or not.

Secondly, the BLM line is surely not that someone wanted to kill him ................ just that they seemingly weren't overly bothered when it became evident that they were killing him.

Note - I've nothing to do with BLM, so I can't categorically state this to be true, but as a reasonably intelligent person, it would seem to be a reasonably intelligent take on things.



I think that response speaks volumes.

You just stated "They seemingly weren't overly bothered when it became evident that they were killing him" (this suggests you believe there was a moment they, rather than an individual [as a group of police] knew he was going to die, because of their actions, and continued) and then stated "The deserving has nothing to do with the intention of the killer, international or not". To work out if someone deserves something, in my opinion, you'd need to figure out what they were "given" and "why they were given it", im not sure I could do that.

Do I believe a persons character would be taken into consideration in the above? Absolutely! Its all opinions and philosophy.

 

[richymac]

So did BLM start riots or not? Did this all happen due to Floyd?

BLM is a movement and as such can’t really be held accountable for any rioting

 

[hindleymonwafc]

Only another 7 hrs and 15 minutes WL.

 

[moonay]

Just a side note...

Has anyone else noticed that trouble in the country only starts when someone with a very murky past (Mark Duggan and George Floyd) gets murdered???

Yet, there was nothing when Stephen Lawrence and Damilola Taylor got murdered.

Strange... Isn't it?

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here EV.

I'm sure you're aware that Mark Duggan and George Floyd were both killed by policemen, whilst Stephen Lawrence and Damilola Taylor were tragically killed by young civilians (of around their own age, not that it matters). Also, both were around 20 years ago, when (even after the disgraceful beating of Rodney King years earlier), the BLM movement hadn't taken off.

Nothing strange about it at all if you think about it.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

BLM is a movement and as such can’t really be held accountable for any rioting

If I were you after a statement like that I would grab the tin hat and retreat to a safe place mate.

 

[moonay]

You just stated "They seemingly weren't overly bothered when it became evident that they were killing him" (this suggests you believe there was a moment they, rather than an individual [as a group of police] knew he was going to die, because of their actions, and continued) and then stated "The deserving has nothing to do with the intention of the killer, international or not". To work out if someone deserves something, in my opinion, you'd need to figure out what they were "given" and "why they were given it", im not sure I could do that.

Do I believe a persons character would be taken into consideration in the above? Absolutely! Its all opinions and philosophy.

Having seen the video footage, and having observed the kneeling officer be (apparently told by colleagues to ease up - but he didn't), I'd say yes, they (not just the kneeler) knew that Floyd's breathing was being impeded and was not in a good state. It's not a massive jump to believe that if the airflow restriction was to continue that Floyd would probably die ............. but it seems no-one made that jump.

You've lost me with the deserving bit. I don't know what you're trying to say........ nor in your concluding para, but it sounds like you're saying that if they thought he was "questionable", then they were maybe justified in doing what they did.

I'm gobsmacked.

 

[moonay]

Only another 7 hrs and 15 minutes WL.

Well, he will keep on responding with tripe!

 

[Wlatic]

Well, he will keep on responding with tripe!

Its not my fault you have a basic lack of understanding!

Having seen the video footage, and having observed the kneeling officer be (apparently told by colleagues to ease up - but he didn't), I'd say yes, they (not just the kneeler) knew that Floyd's breathing was being impeded and was not in a good state. It's not a massive jump to believe that if the airflow restriction was to continue that Floyd would probably die ............. but it seems no-one made that jump.

You've lost me with the deserving bit. I don't know what you're trying to say........ nor in your concluding para, but it sounds like you're saying that if they thought he was "questionable", then they were maybe justified in doing what they did.

I'm gobsmacked.

There are always possibilities in everything.

BLM is a movement and as such can’t really be held accountable for any rioting

Here we go! Only hold those to account who have differing views. Protests are good, as long as its "our" protest and we agree with the message. We need freedom of speech unless we disagree with whats being said! No person is illegal, unless its someone we dont like. Same old same old!

 

[moonay]

BLM is a movement and as such can’t really be held accountable for any rioting

TB's right mate. That's a bit of a naive statement. Some of (not all, not by a long way probably, but definitely some) were responsible for inciting violence ........ both here and in the US.

If individuals align themselves to the movement, then surely their actions can be attributed to it.

That's why though "The Police" as an institution aren't necessarily racist, corrupt, or violent thugs, there are within the force policemen who are racist, corrupt and violent thugs.