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Your Tax Supporting Cults

Green Tea - 25/1/2014 23:05

Yes I agree that any remaining spaces that they have left over - the pupils/family applying will be decided by the school. But they dont "just" chose the best pupils as that wouldnt be Catholic..They will select many from disadvantaged backgrounds too.
I too have seen parents become Catholic "just" to get there kids into the school...But the fact remains that the faith school education is(in the case I speak of) yielding pupils that go on to do better things.

I think the issues we should be looking at, are improving the state ran schools. So that parents like the one mentioned in this thread shouldnt have to complain about sending their child to a faith school just to get a good education.
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You couldn't be further from the truth. A quick look at the demographics of faith schools shows a very different mix than State Schools. The figures are out there for everyone to see. Their are very few children of poorer families attending these schools.

It becomes self perpetuating. Parents with the skills to do so try and get their kids into these Schools, because their results have been skewed by their enrolment process. These produce better results for the next generation to do the same as well. They also attract better teachers, because they also know the level of student is higher.

Every school should be forced to take a cross section of their catchment area, not cherry pick.
 
BBJ - 25/1/2014 23:04

As regards maths, I was good at geometry and trigonometry (and arithmetic, obviously) but was hopeless at algebra.
As regards the main point of the discussion, when we were sending our children to school, there was only a choice between the local Catholic school and the semi-local Protestant one. This was when the Republic was ostensibly wall-to-wall Catholic.
A couple of our grandchildren go to the local Catholic school whilst the others go to "Educate Together" schools which are totally non-denominational. There is no nearby "Educate Together" school for the two who go to the local Catholic one.
We had no problems at all relating to their different religion. I suppose it might have been because we were "brain washing" them at home......(I am always taken with the idea that kids should be left to make up their own minds about religion and morals but not, say, about what time they should go to bed. Families, in my opinion, are not meant to be democracies.)
There was, however, exclusion for two of our sons who were not too interested in sport. Basically, the teacher (who is now the headmaster and has a high opinion of himself), being GAA-mad, focused on his protegees and really just left the "non performers" in a corner of the field doing not a fat lot.
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Yes but you say it yourself bbj. You were teaching your children your morals, your beliefs etc, (and your morals are impeccable sir) but you also clearly think it would then be up to them to make their minds up about religion.

I don't think schools should play any part at all in this. They teach the bible as fact. That to me is wrong.
 
The enrolment process in my area was that if your a Catholic family and your child wants to go to the Catholic primary school in the area, then you get in..Regardless of how successful the family is or intelligent the family is. After all the Catholic children are enrolled in the catchment area - any remaining places can then go to other applicants which are picked by each school. In our local Catholic school they would pick a variety from differing backgrounds - im not sure now but I think the only thing the school requested was that they accept the Catholic teachings. And if the family refused then it was unlikely they would be accepted. They certainly didnt cherry pick the best pupils - as in primary school it would be the start of that child's education and knowing how smart a child is tat this stage would not be recognised. In our local Catholic school they had Asian children, children from single parents, etc..

But I do agree that some families became Catholic just to get their kids into the school.

The next stage would be the high school - again this is where cherry picking may take place. As at this stage the child will have a history and maybe many Catholic high schools will chose the best performing children from their previous schools to fit in any remaining places - but those children who were not Catholic that filled in the original places in the primary school will also be given places.
 
Just check the demographics GT. However they arrive at it, they have a much better quality of pupil than the local State Schools, I guarantee it.

To make any direct comparisons on results is just nonsense.
 
The only way they can have a better quality of pupil is maybe because of Catholic values in the family. I dont know how else it can be but if your a young Catholic couple and enrolling your child into the local Catholic school - you will get your child in. They wont ask how much money you have, or whether the parents work or not.

As ive mentioned the only Catholic schools that can benefit from cherry picking would be the high schools. They will take all the pupils from the previous school and any places left will go to who they decide. But the non Catholic pupils that the primary school accepted will have already had a Catholic education - so maybe its the education itself that produces a better pupil.

I will stress that my children attended Catholic schools and non of them have been brainwashed. One of them dosnt believe in the bible, yet still values the education received.
 
So the fact that almost all of these "Catholic families" are Middle Class/medium to high earners is just a coincidence? Educated parents making sure little Johnny gets into the best school, that's all it is. Nothing to do with the faith at all.

Just do a Google search, and see the problems, and investigations, in this system. The very fact they can choose any of their students skews the results.
 
The Fear - 26/1/2014 12:06
You were teaching your children your morals, your beliefs etc, (and your morals are impeccable sir)
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Fear, thanks for the generous thought but if you really think my morals are impeccable, then you don't know me as well as you think you do! :10:
I'm not against "faith" schools . If parents want that choice, fair enough, but that should be reflected in the amount of state aid that school gets. (Perhaps it already is? I don't know how that operates in England.)
As regards our own kids, we were given the choice of whether or not they should attend RE. We decided they should attend because we didn't want them to be "outsiders".It was interesting, though, that many times, our children knew more about the supposed beliefs of the majority of their mates than their mates did.

 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 26/1/2014 12:32

So the fact that almost all of these "Catholic families" are Middle Class/medium to high earners is just a coincidence? Educated parents making sure little Johnny gets into the best school, that's all it is. Nothing to do with the faith at all.

Just do a Google search, and see the problems, and investigations, in this system. The very fact they can choose any of their students skews the results.
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I dont know Heath...You tell me why Catholic families tend to be better well off? I assume its the education and values that the Catholic faith brings? I know the Catholic school my children attended was far stricter than the state ran schools, I know the Catholic school my kids attended was also more charitable and acceptable for bad behaviour than the local state ran school.

They attended Church at least once a week, they had to confess sins to the local priest. The Catholic church played a huge role in my children's upbringing - and yet they are not brainwashed. They are charitable and loving with huge respect for the life around them.
 
Well, there is only one solution. The faith schools must open their doors up to pupils from all demographics. Only then will we know if it is the school or the starting population that is determining the results. Whilst they continue to select pupils the way they do, we'll never know.

As we know from previous threads, religious believers have a lower intelligence level, so I would once again suggest that many of these families are not truly Catholic. It would mean that the two sets of data are contradictory, and we know the first is correct.

The better question could also be, why are so many Middle classed parent Catholic? Are the middle class because they are catholic, or Catholic because they are middle class? Again it's self fulfilling.
 
So in one post your saying;

"As we know from previous threads, religious believers have a lower intelligence level,"

And in another post your saying;

"However they arrive at it, they have a much better quality of pupil than the local State Schools, I guarantee it."
 
Green Tea - 26/1/2014 12:57

So in one post your saying;

"As we know from previous threads, religious believers have a lower intelligence level,"

And in another post your saying;

"However they arrive at it, they have a much better quality of pupil than the local State Schools, I guarantee it."
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You really haven't followed my arguments, have you? In statistics the results are only as good as the starting population. That is it, in a nutshell.
 
Agreed - and that starting population in the case of the topic in question is from a Catholic background. I said before - how can a primary school "cherry pick" the best pupils when the child has never been accessed in a school before? The child will be starting his/her school life from that point on(the beginning) in a Catholic background - the assessments will come later down the road.

The only cherry picking of better pupils can come at high school level for any places that are left over. And even in this case still the majority of that school's pupils will have come from an earlier Catholic education system.
 
Sigh. This is so hard.

Even if your premise is right that all these kids come from a truly Catholic background, and I can assure you from experience, it isn't, you can then still select a subgroup of the Catholic children that are more intelligent. These Schools have the power, and they use it.

However you look at it, the starting sample in these cases is not a good representation of the local community. That is it, nothing else. Unless you have starting populations that are almost identical, then meaningful comparison is impossible. Is that so hard to understand?
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10448412/Church-moving-away-from-selecting-school-pupils-based-on-religion.html


Church of England faith schools are no longer as focused on selecting pupils based on their religion, the Archbishop of Canterbury has revealed.

The Most Rev Justin Welby said it was possible to create a very good school without selection and that opening the doors of a school to every part of a community could help the Church achieve its aim to alleviate poverty.

It comes just a month after a study revealed middle-class parents are increasingly monopolising places at the most sought-after faith schools.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24948704

While the Catholic bishops want academic selection to be phased out, only one Catholic grammar school has done this, and the Catholic Principals Association (CPA) has become impatient with the slow pace of change.
 
Basically your just finding links for what ive already said..

= The high schools(grammar) can cherry pick any free remaining places.
= The primary schools are selecting any children to fill remaining free places.

Like I said at my children's primary school the free places were given to Asians, single parents, anybody etc.. And yet when they went to their high school(Grammar) we did notice that free spaces went to better performers.
 
http://www.teachingtimes.com/articles/illegal-admission-religious-schools.htm

This year’s annual report by the chief schools adjudicator, Sir Philip Hunter, has confirmed that a disproportionally high number of faith schools failed to fully implement the government's new code on admissions.

The report concluded that there was ‘evidence of widespread and serious departures from the Code,’ and that failure to adhere to the admissions arrangements may have led to potentially thousands of families being wrongly refused places at their chosen schools, with little hope of having the decision reversed.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/top-catholic-school-told-to-halt-admissions-preference-over-parents-service-in-church-community-8790181.html

The Office of the Schools Adjudicator has told the London Oratory school, a Roman Catholic boys' comprehensive in Fulham, west London - which admits girls to the sixth-form - that it cannot give preference to pupils whose parents have given at least three years' service to their local church community.

"This process will favour those parents who are good at planning ahead and are sufficiently well organised to identify the admissions criteria, who ensure that they undertake the necessary activities and keep sufficient records to be able to evidence that they have done this," he added.
 
What I cant understand is that if the faith schools are a success - why stop their funding? Why close them down? Why pick up a fuss? Why try and change their curriculum?

Surely any fellow human with a heart would champion a school that is producing pupils that go onto good things?

Why destroy something that is successful out of pure hatred, or whatever it is?

Its already well proven that these kids are NOT being brainwashed. Many later in life will lose faith and still value the education they received..

I could understand it if they were churning out robotic brainwashed humans - like some public schools do! But they are not....
 
Green Tea - 26/1/2014 13:48

What I cant understand is that if the faith schools are a success - why stop their funding? Why close them down? Why pick up a fuss? Why try and change their curriculum?

Surely any fellow human with a heart would champion a school that is producing pupils that go onto good things?

Why destroy something that is successful out of pure hatred, or whatever it is?

Its already well proven that these kids are NOT being brainwashed. Many later in life will lose faith and still value the education they received..

I could understand it if they were churning out robotic brainwashed humans - like some public schools do! But they are not....
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LOL, a change in tactics!! Yeah.

How about because it is unfair on other Schools and pupils that don't get in? How about it's because they don't obey the rules? How about because they monopolise the better teachers that could be better used elsewhere? How about because they use it as tool to promote their faith as better than everyone else's?

A better solution would be to have all Schools of an even level, not have elitist organisations some parents have no chance of getting their kids in.
 
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