Would be Millwall, wouldn`t it ?

[Captainreblue]

If you read the statement from the Millwall players released on Friday, its clear what the taking the knee represents to them and why they're doing it. They made it perfectly clear, obviously still too much for some to understand.

The message and meaning have clearly got mixed and misunderstood, either by the players or in crossing the Atlantic. If you listen to Liam Rosenior and his comments clearly it's got sweet FA to do with Marxism from his point if view.

Marlon Romeo made his feelings on the matter perfectly clear too. Why an earth any player of BAME would want to play for Millwall I beyond me.

 

[alphabet_king]

I have not read all of the above, but it seems to me that many people's objection to the BLM movement is that they are very militant. In fact bordering on the fascist. We've probably all seen videos on social media of things like BLM marchers forcing people in restaurants to pledge their support or they fuck up their meal etc. That is no way to win people over, quite frankly. I find it baffling that these BLM protesters seem to think it is. I am massively left wing, yet even i find this cringe worthy and see it as more detrimental to the cause than positive. Unfortunately this movement is what many people are now objecting to, rather than the premise that black lives matter themselves. In fact I don't really support BLM movement any more either, and from someone as left wing as me, who has had numerous arguments with people i know about it, it is saying something. It just seems like the BLM movement which started out as completely understandable and an excellent cause has been hijacked by pricks (or fundamentalists). I actually think its doing more harm to the cause than good.

Unfortunately as well as the above, there are also many racists who will hate the BLM movement whether or not they are 'militant'. I know of a number of people who are simply quite racist, and all too happy to jump on the anti-BLM wagon as it legitimises their own already existing prejudices.

It does not surprise me that the clubs where boo's will have rung out will be clubs like Millwall and West Ham. I dont know too many Millwall fans, but there's plenty of West Ham here in Thurrock Essex, a strong hold of the Brexit and previously the UKIP vote. Sometimes the points made are valid, but when they are made by people you've heard be openly and strongly racist, then you suspect that the motivations are not the same as yours.

 

[GillsBluenose]

If you read the statement from the Millwall players released on Friday, its clear that the taking the knee represents to them and why they're doing it. They made it perfectly clear, obviously still too much for some to understand.

Have you got a link to that? It may help in making it more specific.

As it stands, I just have get the feeling that it is either historic, so nothing can be done about it, or putting the blame for any problem a black person has on racism, ignoring the fact that shit happens to everyone.

For instance, it is easy to compare the percentage of the population that is from the BAME community against the amount of BAME managers and coaches and cry foul due to under representation, but as has been pointed out before the amount of players from BAME community is actually a higher percentage than in the population figures.

 

[octopus]

I suggest that you dig a bit deeper to find out a bit more about BLM before posting again.
BLM are a Marxist political organisation.
It’s easy to get suckered in to thinking that they are merely anti racist.
That’s not the case.

I suggest you stop being so patronising and read my post again and to understand and the broader point being made.

 

[Captainreblue]

Have you got a link to that? It may help in making it more specific.

As it stands, I just have get the feeling that it is either historic, so nothing can be done about it, or putting the blame for any problem a black person has on racism, ignoring the fact that shit happens to everyone.

For instance, it is easy to compare the percentage of the population that is from the BAME community against the amount of BAME managers and coaches and cry foul due to under representation, but as has been pointed out before the amount of players from BAME community is actually a higher percentage than in the population figures.

https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/december/first-team-squad-release-statement/

There was also according to a Millwall supporting mate the club had a suspicion that there may have been a reaction to the taking the knee so released the players statement.

 

[ThreeSixes]

If you read the statement from the Millwall players released on Friday, its clear what the taking the knee represents to them and why they're doing it. They made it perfectly clear, obviously still too much for some to understand.

That's interesting, because a day later they got the response from their fans.

Everyone is struggling at the moment, especially the poor. I don't know how I would react if I was living in poverty in South London, Glasgow, Sunderland, Belfast etc, and I was told repeatedly that the lives of Jamaican, Somali and Nigerian immigrants were more important than mine? Luckily it isn't an issue that really affects me directly.

"Kick it out" was better, that applied to everyone.

 

[valenciagill]

a strong hold of the Brexit and previously the UKIP

Further evidence (as if needed) of the evil minds of those folk living in some parts of London !

 

[Captainreblue]

That's interesting, because a day later they got the response from their fans.

Everyone is struggling at the moment, especially the poor. I don't know how I would react if I was living in poverty in South London, Glasgow, Sunderland, Belfast etc, and I was told repeatedly that the lives of Jamaican, Somali and Nigerian immigrants were more important than mine? Luckily it isn't an issue that really affects me directly.

"Kick it out" was better, that implied to everyone.

So are you suggesting the Millwall STH that attended their game against Derby on Saturday and booed the taking the knee all live in poverty?

 

[ian08040]

Few mates been in touch Booing at Spurs, Brentford , West Ham,Colchester and Reading to but no report on that. Millwall are an easy target . It must really hurt the media to know the majority agree with Millwall.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

The interesting and varied comments made in this thread underline that the topic of Taking the Knee in football ( and other sports, but we`re here talking mainly about footy) is not going away anytime soon. Thanks to everyone that`s posting on this.

I started the thread because it was obvious that the events at Millwall would attract wide media coverage and that football is an arena close to all hearts on this Forum. Yes, similar booing occurred at other venues, but in the case of Millwall, it (the booing) had been planned by "fans" pre-game in response to ongoing dialogue between Millwall FC, keen to get the messaging right, and a vocal group of its followers, who were contesting the messaging.

"Would be Millwall, wouldn`t it ?" was my own form of messaging, as, apart from anything else, my view is that, generally, Millwall have the worst and proportionately biggest bunch of moronic followers in English football. Am I biased towards them ? have to admit that that`s a yes.

Was it unlawful for Millwall followers to boo ? No it wasn`t. Were there better ways to show disapproval of the on-pitch messaging ? Yes, preferably just ignore it. Would I boo ? No.

My view on this is that players have every right to take the knee. Do I think it`s appropriate to do this before every game ? No, I don`t. The point has been made and I would think that by constant repetition there is a real risk that the action will become an empty gesture.

I agree with Shotshy`s point earlier in the thread, that there may be some colleagues on the pitch who may think that the time has come to discontinue the act but feel pressured into compliance. Surely, that`s an uncomfortable situation and an unnecessary pressure on team dynamic.

I believe that Nitram has got it right when he references the success of the Kick-It-Out campaign. This campaign has been very well coordinated and has been tapered effectively to the entity that is UK Football. It resonates with players and fans alike and the messaging is spot on, without being patronising and without perceived political undertones. It`s a complete message and the completeness of that message has been embraced and welcomed at all of our football grounds.

Perhaps now would be a good time to seriously re-invigorate the Kick It Out message as doing so might provide a more acceptable and dignified platform to relax Taking the Knee. It would also serve as a necessary reminder to everyone involved in football that it is a workable and successful vehicle for tackling football related inequality and inclusion issues.

Don`t kneel it out, Kick It Out ?

 

[ThreeSixes]

So are you suggesting the Millwall STH that attended their game against Derby on Saturday and booed the taking the knee all live in poverty?

No, I'm not

 

[valenciagill]

Brendan O'Neil gets it spot on

 

[alphabet_king]

The interesting and varied comments made in this thread underline that the topic of Taking the Knee in football ( and other sports, but we`re here talking mainly about footy) is not going away anytime soon. Thanks to everyone that`s posting on this.

I started the thread because it was obvious that the events at Millwall would attract wide media coverage and that football is an arena close to all hearts on this Forum. Yes, similar booing occurred at other venues, but in the case of Millwall, it (the booing) had been planned by "fans" pre-game in response to ongoing dialogue between Millwall FC, keen to get the messaging right, and a vocal group of its followers, who were contesting the messaging.

"Would be Millwall, wouldn`t it ?" was my own form of messaging, as, apart from anything else, my view is that, generally, Millwall have the worst and proportionately biggest bunch of moronic followers in English football. Am I biased towards them ? have to admit that that`s a yes.

Was it unlawful for Millwall followers to boo ? No it wasn`t. Were there better ways to show disapproval of the on-pitch messaging ? Yes, preferably just ignore it. Would I boo ? No.

My view on this is that players have every right to take the knee. Do I think it`s appropriate to do this before every game ? No, I don`t. The point has been made and I would think that by constant repetition there is a real risk that the action will become an empty gesture.

I agree with Shotshy`s point earlier in the thread, that there may be some colleagues on the pitch who may think that the time has come to discontinue the act but feel pressured into compliance. Surely, that`s an uncomfortable situation and an unnecessary pressure on team dynamic.

I believe that Nitram has got it right when he references the success of the Kick-It-Out campaign. This campaign has been very well coordinated and has been tapered effectively to the entity that is UK Football. It resonates with players and fans alike and the messaging is spot on, without being patronising and without perceived political undertones. It`s a complete message and the completeness of that message has been embraced and welcomed at all of our football grounds.

Perhaps now would be a good time to seriously re-invigorate the Kick It Out message as doing so might provide a more acceptable and dignified platform to relax Taking the Knee. It would also serve as a necessary reminder to everyone involved in football that it is a workable and successful vehicle for tackling football related inequality and inclusion issues.

Don`t kneel it out, Kick It Out ?

I think a big part of the reason people don't like BLM in football is also that they dont feel politics should be forced into our football, and I actually tend to agree. Politics is divisive. Football is meant to be the common ground - or at least, aside from politics.

I am all for kick it out, etc which is focusing on kicking racism out of football. but BLM is a wider movement than just football. However, as much as I agree with the need to take politics right out of football, ironically, I bet half the people claiming BLM protests (and politics) should be kept out of football, happily encourage the players to wear the poppy (another fairly political emblem). I just like to see consistency in how people apply their opinions/logic. When there's no consistency, you can only help but feel people are picking and choosing what logic they apply based on their already existing prejudices.

 

[jogills]

For me, its all in the grammar.
Black Lives Matter
Or
Black lives matter.
One is a political movement, the other is a statement which, of course is true and I don't think anyone would argue. People decide which they want to "follow".
Jo said "BLM organisation in the US does not own English words and their meaning. They have no control over us and we need pay no allegiance to them." Which is true when referring to BLM. To say America has no control over ALL of us is not quite true though. BLM in the states became a massively anti police movement due to the number of Black men's deaths at the hands of the police. Some in this country decided that Blm here should be BLM even though there is nowhere near that level of racial divide here between police and Black men. This resulted in massive amounts of graffiti around cities claiming "Police murder blacks and ACAB" etc.(Anyone remember the "Blue lives murder" t shirts on Amazon that Lancs posted about? They were being manufactured and sold by a British company.)
Blm protesters here were, generally very peaceful, I posted at the time that I had many good interactions with some of them but BLM protesters decided to hijack those demos by jumping on the American bandwagon as if Police here murdered Black guys every five minutes.
For me, the whole thing has been lost in transatlantic translation.
As for footballers kneeling, thats a personal choice but I wouldn't fancy being the first to publicly refuse simply because they would (wrongly in my opinion) be accused by some of being racist.

Reasoned response Nobby. I refuse to let others dictate what I think or tell me what I am saying. Occasionally we may drift into that territory but I think all of us like to think we can think for ourselves and that we'd like to allow others to do the same.

I take your point about distinguishing BLM from Blm but in everyday life I can't be bothered. I'm on the left but do not know a single person who subscribed to the views attributed to BLM in the US, not one. It's a simple statement over here. Individuals and small groups will often shout loudly, leaflet and bombard social media with their obsessions but they remain marginal.

Defund the police was a bad political slogan taken from a poor and partial understanding of a serious and reasoned argument for a different sort of policing. That argument was born and developed over the pond and while interesting would need to be seen through a very different prism over here. Obama has cautioned both about the grave problems in using that slogan and more generally of the language the left has used in trying to persuade.

I wouldn't be surprised if footballers have already decided not to take the knee. We have heard that there have been discussions and it doesn't take place at every game. Footballers live in a world where team spirit and the collective rule and know how to negotiate that world without smashing it. Leave them be and they will resolve it.

Extreme anti police elements are much smaller than their noise and have probably increased support for the police.

 

[GillsBluenose]

https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/december/first-team-squad-release-statement/
There was also according to a Millwall supporting mate the club had a suspicion that there may have been a reaction to the taking the knee so released the players statement.

Thanks for that link, Captain. Good to see that they are stopping taking the knee in the new year in favour of a new anti discrimination strategy that is hopefully more up to date and less ambiguous.

Also good to know that Brendan O'Neill can see beyond the "ALL Millwall fans are yobs and racists" mentality. I would think that most of those types of fan would have already been flushed out and only attend games casually rather than pay for season tickets. With the low attendances, I also believe most clubs have only selected long term season ticket holders and their families in their trial crowds rather than the knuckle draggers.

 

[Tarian]

Not a good analogy . In NI the conflict is about religion or more to the point what nation people see themselves belonging to/ and wish being governed by.

Maybe it's not a perfect analogy.

It's about ramming a sectional, partisan political agenda down people's throats from a position of "power".
i.e. from the platform of a football pitch.

Why should spectators who see a particular gesture as "sectarian" be silent ?
Especially when the hypocrisy of activist has been so clear.
(i.e. "Black" lives matter - but not "All" or (even) "White")

The British black lives matter movement see themselves as British just like the rest of Britain, and they want to be treated the same as the rest of Britain.

Did you miss my line:
"Equality of treatment should mean what it says."
That's code for all lives should matter.

it shouldnt be about sides and the fact you see it that way speaks volumes.

Plenty of people have explained why BLM comes across as "about sides".
Perhaps you would be kind enough to spell out the innuendo behind "speaks volumes"

And if it helps, perhaps I should add.....
"Equality of treatment should mean what it says.....
....and say what it means."

 

[nitram77]

This is a really good watch, and expresses a lot of the feelings that I have myself.

 

[Tarian]

Racism is still prevalent ......

But is it ?
a) Daily, to all (or even most) black people ?

b) Genuinely, hostile aggressive or discriminatory behaviour based on people's skin colour

a) When black people are asked "have you experience racism", I would be astonished if fewer than 90% said "yes".
Much the same as a "shock" headline reported that 81% of policeman had been assaulted.
Over a lifetime / career, why not more ????

b) In the '70's hostility was open and discrimination still occurred - but it was declining.
By the late '80's "racism" had virtually disappeared.

Then in the early '90's along came "Ethnic Monitoring" forms.
Suddenly "difference" was highlighted.
People were lumped into imagined "Communities" - where amazingly all with the same skin colour or heritage supposedly shared identical views and experiences.

An "industry" in victim-hood was born .....
...needing increased occurrences or "offence" to sustain it.

Hence an ever increasing numbers of reports of "hate" crimes.... (requiring mind-reading)
....apparently requiring no witnesses or corroboration.

..... we need each new tolerant, enlightened generation to end it.

Is constantly highlighting "difference" (by pigeon-holing people by ethnicity) the way to encourage "tolerance" and "enlightment"....
.....especially in such a sectarian way as BLM ?

Surely "culture" is a much bigger driver of "difference" ?
(...which can lead either to discrimination or to celebration. )

Again.
Equality of treatment should mean what it says.

 

[Tarian]

Over here and especially in sport it's a simple show of support for equality, opposition to discrimination and a determination to rid our organisations of institutional and systemic racism.

So why the objection by activists to "All lives matter" ?
And why tolerate slogans and gestures that are the antithesis of "equality" or "discrimination" ?

Raised fist salute? Read what the man says, listen to the soundtrack, he's reacting to the attempt to the boo boys and their attempt to shut down his voice.

If "the man" doesn't like boos, will he allow to be heard equally the voice of those who see BLM, "the knee" and black power salutes as sectarian, divisive or racist ?

(Broadcasters seem reluctant to actually seek out their views and explanation - instead preferring to attack BLM critics with innuendo or un-evidenced slurs.)

 

[Tarian]

This is exactly why the football authorities did not want politics mixed in football. This was highlighted when they did not want poppies on the shirts.
There was an outcry from i would guess many of the same people complaining about blm protests and shirt labelling now
Would they be happy if some fans were booing during the remembrance silence at matches or poppies not being allowed to be worn at matches.

No political symbols or protest at games maybe the only option????

But Remembrance Day is once a year.

(Although I struggle to see how remembering all war dead (which is the theme these days) is especially "political" - but happy to consider a reasoned explanation.)