World Cup 2018 Fred sponsored by Unfounded Optimism followed by Abject Disappointment | Page 59 | Vital Football

World Cup 2018 Fred sponsored by Unfounded Optimism followed by Abject Disappointment

Kane looked hungover barley moved all game, should of been hooked off at half time as well. Loftus cheek looked better than what Ali has been doing, Dier bit ropey first half but much better 2nf half. They just have those 2 real quality players that made the difference, we lack any creativity where they make the difference.
 
Not sure why everyone got so carried away or disappointed now. England are a good but not great team. Against the only 4 good or better teams they played, they lost three and drew one scoring only 2 goals. Southgate isn't great and neither are this team. With a poor draw we would not made it out of the last 16.
 
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Southgate and the team done well but to be fair we haven't got what the top teams have - a real match winner.Wales beat Belgium in the Euros because of Bale .If ,for example, Erikson was English we would have beat Croatia as we lack that final ball as he is the main reason that Kane is so prolific.Sterling,Ali and Lingard are good players but they don't compare to the real top players.We done well within our limits and Pickford,Maguire and Trippier were outstanding .Well done England.Hopefully the likes of Foden and Sessagnon will improve us in the future.
 
I cant get carried away. I thought England were very ordinary all the way through. Yes there was passion (pashun) and togetherness but there wasn't much more than that. We never looked good. Pickford, Trippier, Kane and Maguire were the only positives for me. If he continue with three at the back, he needs better than Walker and Jones. The middle of the park is dull. I have never like Henderson and we need one or two who can play like Dier did second half available every game. That standard is the minimum.

Anyway, I have never been a fan of the international team, 2010 completely killed it for me. I'm just Forest
 
mao tse tung said:
So if he starts to score goals at international level he will become World Class; is that the premise?

If he is the best player available in that position, then English football is in a very bad way.

Raheem is a very fortunate boy at club level, he makes full use of the fact that Guardiola has to pick a certain number of home grown players in his match day squad; why else does Delph keep getting game time, or am I missing something there as well?

Bash asked a good question regarding Messi earlier in the thread; the enigmatic nature of the question makes it difficult to give a logical answer - how can such a brilliant player be so poor at international level.

There is one thing for certain; in twenty years time people will still be talking about Messi, you cannot seriously say the same about Sterling.

No one remembers the also rans.
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No mao, just if he can score goals he's in the running, no guarantee. And that puts him in a side that if it stays the same is never going to win the World Cup. This team has had the luck of the draw and might be considered lucky to finish where it did.
There's not enough flair and we lack some skills and have done for a while, no sign of changing enough things either in my opinion, more's the pity. And I reckon that Southgate while he may not be the complete answer is definitely an improvement.
While I think that this team is an improvement on what we've had there's still a mile to go. Just hope I'm here to see it.
 
Apollyon said:
I cant get carried away. I thought England were very ordinary all the way through. Yes there was passion (pashun) and togetherness but there wasn't much more than that. We never looked good. Pickford, Trippier, Kane and Maguire were the only positives for me. If he continue with three at the back, he needs better than Walker and Jones. The middle of the park is dull. I have never like Henderson and we need one or two who can play like Dier did second half available every game. That standard is the minimum.

Anyway, I have never been a fan of the international team, 2010 completely killed it for me. I'm just Forest
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Surely you're too young to give up at this stage.

:shake:
 
It’s an interesting point to make that Sterling only plays at Man City because of the home grown rule but I must admit again that I disagree.

The rule is that 8 of the squad of 25 must have spent 3 years at an English club before the age of 21. You could effectively have a core of 17 players then 8 bit part players filling up the squad.

If Sterling wasn’t rated higher than that there is no way he would have played 33 premier league and 6 champions league games last season. He would have just been a bit part player. Those numbers suggest that Guardiola at least sees him as an integral part of the squad.

As for what he needs to do to become World Class...?

Again last season his numbers were a goal every other game and an assist every 3rd game.

He would need to at least maintain this at club level and possibly improve the assists rate. He would also need to replicate it at international level. While he has Pep at City I am pretty sure he will do the former but am not convinced he will do the latter, partly down to himself and partly down to the quality of his team mates.
 
Basha73 said:
It’s an interesting point to make that Sterling only plays at Man City because of the home grown rule but I must admit again that I disagree.

The rule is that 8 of the squad of 25 must have spent 3 years at an English club before the age of 21. You could effectively have a core of 17 players then 8 bit part players filling up the squad.

If Sterling wasn’t rated higher than that there is no way he would have played 33 premier league and 6 champions league games last season. He would have just been a bit part player. Those numbers suggest that Guardiola at least sees him as an integral part of the squad.

As for what he needs to do to become World Class...?

Again last season his numbers were a goal every other game and an assist every 3rd game.

He would need to at least maintain this at club level and possibly improve the assists rate. He would also need to replicate it at international level. While he has Pep at City I am pretty sure he will do the former but am not convinced he will do the latter, partly down to himself and partly down to the quality of his team mates.
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Again last season his numbers were a goal every other game and an assist every 3rd game."

The stats that matter are 2 in 44 for England; and around half of those games were against moderate or poor opposition.

If he has aspirations to become World Class, he should be the one influencing his team mates, not the other way round.

And I'm not too sure how much further Guardiola can improve him by; he has had two full seasons under him and the improvement has been negligible.

Guardiola is a great manager; he should be, he was mentored by a genius from an early age; there are limits to what he can do though.

If he does manage to turn him into a World Class player someone should give Pep some loaves and fishes and let him see what he can do with them.
 
Old Red Fart said:
No mao, just if he can score goals he's in the running, no guarantee. And that puts him in a side that if it stays the same is never going to win the World Cup. This team has had the luck of the draw and might be considered lucky to finish where it did.
There's not enough flair and we lack some skills and have done for a while, no sign of changing enough things either in my opinion, more's the pity. And I reckon that Southgate while he may not be the complete answer is definitely an improvement.
While I think that this team is an improvement on what we've had there's still a mile to go. Just hope I'm here to see it.
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Did you watch yesterdays game ORF?

If so, did you notice the subtle difference between the performances of players with genuine class like Hazard and De Bruyne and poor old Raheem?

At least Southgate spared him the emabarassment of having to play the second half.
 
mao tse tung said:
Again last season his numbers were a goal every other game and an assist every 3rd game."

The stats that matter are 2 in 44 for England; and around half of those games were against moderate or poor opposition.

If he has aspirations to become World Class, he should be the one influencing his team mates, not the other way round.

And I'm not too sure how much further Guardiola can improve him by; he has had two full seasons under him and the improvement has been negligible.

Guardiola is a great manager; he should be, he was mentored by a genius from an early age; there are limits to what he can do though.

If he does manage to turn him into a World Class player someone should give Pep some loaves and fishes and let him see what he can do with them.
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I don’t disagree with any of that in terms of what he has to do.

The issue isn’t with what he can do with the ball at his feet but with his decision making. He will never be a great finisher as he doesn’t strike the ball cleanly enough with power but he has proven that he can score.

He can however beat his man and from there he should be looking and learning how to play a team mate in effectively.

He isn’t a Hazard or De Buyne and doesn’t play that way but he can dominate a game if he keeps taking on his opponents and creating chances. Along with taking his league form onto the international stage, that is what I am waiting to see if he can learn.

I don’t think it is quite water into wine territory just yet as he is only 24 but he does need to start stepping up soon or he will be another wasted talent.
 
mao tse tung said:
Did you watch yesterdays game ORF?

If so, did you notice the subtle difference between the performances of players with genuine class like Hazard and De Bruyne and poor old Raheem?

At least Southgate spared him the emabarassment of having to play the second half.
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Understood, he'll never be top class but can improve with a bit of luck. And I understand the genuine class to which you refer and which we don't have. And on the face of it never will. We've been like this and worse for so long I begin to think that we'll never produce a player with the sort of skills and ability required for world class.
At least Sterling tries hard.
I wasn't able to see the game, only highlights worse luck, might have changed my way of thinking a bit if I had.
 
On another note after mentioning Messi on the international stage and then looking at the Messi v Ronaldo debate it really is fascinating.

On the international stage Ronaldo has the Euro Championship whereas Messi only has Olympic gold.

Behind that though Ronaldo only has one Euro final defeat. Messi has 3 Copa America final defeats and a World Cup final defeat.

Messi also has 5 goals to 4 in WC finals with all 4 of Ronaldos goals coming this tournament.

Ronaldo is regarded as Portugal’s all time top player. Messi isn’t particularly rated by his country’s fans.

On the club stage it is almost one way traffic. Although Ronaldo has 5 champions league to Messi’s 4, Messi has 9 league and 6 cup wins to Ronaldo’s 5 league and 2 Cup.

Pope mentioned Ronaldo having done it at 3 clubs but he started at Sporting and won nothing. He then went to the best club in England and won 3 league titles and a champions league.

He then moved to Real - one of the two teams in a predominantly two horse race. Other than the 4 champions league he has won two league titles and 2 cups.

He has now moved to Juventus who have pretty much dominated in Italy for the last 5 years.

By contrast Messi has to break into then keep his place in the Barca side. I am not sure one trumps the other.

Obviously there is more to it than that including ballon d’or etc but I think it will end up being personal preference that makes peoples mind up.

My preference is Messi but I have no problem if someone tells me they think it is Ronaldo.
 
I think everyone's being a bit harsh on Sterling. He certainly isn't world class and I don't think he ever will be. But he is certainly a good player and worthy of his place in the side at the moment. I don't think he particularly deserv s the critisicism he's been getting, there were worse players in the team than him. At least he tried to make things happen and attacked at every opportunity. After the first two games, against the equilavent of conference sides, Lingard and Ali became passengers. Ali picked up a goal, but that was it. Sterling was miles better than those two, yet not much discussion on their performances?
 
Hardy Forest said:
I think everyone's being a bit harsh on Sterling. He certainly isn't world class and I don't think he ever will be. But he is certainly a good player and worthy of his place in the side at the moment. I don't think he particularly deserv s the critisicism he's been getting, there were worse players in the team than him. At least he tried to make things happen and attacked at every opportunity. After the first two games, against the equilavent of conference sides, Lingard and Ali became passengers. Ali picked up a goal, but that was it. Sterling was miles better than those two, yet not much discussion on their performances?
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Saying "At least he tried to make things happen and attacked at every opportunity" is a bit like praising a bad chef for at least serving the food warm. He's the striker/attacking midfielder- you are praising him for the very basics of his job!

Ali was injured in the first game and never the same afterwards but still did well. Not sure what you mean with Lingard, who was excellent. Both have something Sterling doesnt- and England goal in the last three years
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Saying "At least he tried to make things happen and attacked at every opportunity" is a bit like praising a bad chef for at least serving the food warm. He's the striker/attacking midfielder- you are praising him for the very basics of his job!

Ali was injured in the first game and never the same afterwards but still did well. Not sure what you mean with Lingard, who was excellent. Both have something Sterling doesnt- and England goal in the last three years
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I wasn't praising him, just saying he tried. As for Ali and Lingard, I don't know what you are going on about in all honesty. They were excellent against the first two sides, but as I said, that's pretty much like playing a conference quality. After that passengers. Lingard was crap after those first two games, an absolute non entity and Ali not a lot better, though at least he popped up with a goal.
 
Griezman cheats and one nil to France. Not a word from commentators about it. Cheating once again comes second to star players, when are the authorities going to stamp it out with lengthy bans, its almost condoned, definitely rewarded.
 
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