What next for FGR? | Page 2 | Vital Football

What next for FGR?

king_dezeeuw06 said:
You mentioned in a previous post - 'I'm not saying that there's any ladies who currently have the necessary skills, experience etc' - why is that if not having direct experience in the men's game is a non factor?
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Chances. Oh, and male attitudes ... given that the hiring for the position will probably be done by a male, who may or may not possess a similar view to the one you put forward re it being "completely unique to anything else".

It isn't. It's just an excuse.
 
So men can manage women as they understand their needs yet women can't manage men because they have big ego's and need to dish out physical training whatever that means in this day in age (not having Managers run strength and conditioning programmes btw). They also wouldn't have credibility because they've never played the game (by that logic Mourinho and Rodgers should never have been anywhere near the men's game).
 
Personally I see no reason why a woman could not be an ideal manager for a men's team. Having worked with many women in male dominated areas for years in the building industry I think that they would have no problem dealing with players ego's.

In my opinion though it is down to experience and ability, and the only way I can see that being gained is by starting as a #2 for an experienced manager and working their apprenticeship. I doubt that any female player will automatically be accepted as a manager in the men's game as happens with some male players, Gerrard and Lampard etc. I think the way that any female manager will be appointed will be by rising through the ranks at a lower league club, starting as a coach and moving up to assistant manager and then manager.

I think it would be good for the game to have a female or two in the management ranks as it would bring a different slant to the game and maybe some fresh ideas.
 
moonay said:
I may be wrong, but I read it that LMB was referring to an absence of black managers at all levels, given that there are equal number of black players at the very top level.

Are they being given the chances to put their CV together in the first place?
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If you are asking about why aren't black managers being given a chance at management with no previous CV - how many managers get a chance at a club with no previous CV?

You get a couple like Lampard, Gerrard and Roonay who were mega stars in their playing days and effectively get a free pass because of it. Even at the lower levels name value can be a thing with people like Hasselbiank and Barton getting L1 / L2 clubs with no prior experience.

Some former players who get a chance at their former club with no managerial experience out of respect they previously earned as a player; Caldwell with us, Parker at Fulham, Moore at West Brom 3 recent ones off the top of my head.

But the majority of first time managerial appointments appointments have to start coaching at a very low, youth team level and work their way up the ladder, Cook started at Southport for example.

I'm certain plenty of managers from every race apply for jobs and never get a look in as generally there are very few positions available and with the money involved in success and failure - not many clubs take a risk and go for experience, so we largely have the same pool of names circulating through the game.

There is certainly not a proportion of black managers to players - but correlation doesn't automatically equal causation. Is there equally as many black and white candidates applying and are they applying for the same jobs at the same levels?

It goes without saying everyone is against racism, but the accusation gets thrown around these days very easily. So unless there is some proof of black managers being discriminated against i wouldn't want to accuse any clubs of racism.
 
moonay said:
Chances. Oh, and male attitudes ... given that the hiring for the position will probably be done by a male, who may or may not possess a similar view to the one you put forward re it being "completely unique to anything else".

It isn't. It's just an excuse.
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It's not though - as you said yourself there are no women with the desired experience. This is because they lack experience in the mens game to take the step up to first team management without it being a massive gamble. It's not sexism to state that fact.

Men and women's sports are different - the way you would handle your players, the way you would work them, the profile, the money, the agents, the egos, etc.

As i already said if you take a man who successfully managed in the women's game or a man who managed a a significantly lower level and you bring them into a mens pro team, or even taking a manager from a country where the men's game wasn't as developed as ours - they are going to struggle without the experience of that level as much as any woman. It's not a gender issue it's a experience issue.

True Blue is saying the same type of thing as me - if you don't have experience in the men's game you aren't going to get anywhere.
 
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KDZ, you said that women couldn't manage male professional footballers, (what, with their big egos etc) regardless of their experience.

Oh, I don't think TB is saying the same as you at all.

Any road ... match time.
 
Ooohaaahdonniepage said:
So men can manage women as they understand their needs yet women can't manage men because they have big ego's and need to dish out physical training whatever that means in this day in age (not having Managers run strength and conditioning programmes btw). They also wouldn't have credibility because they've never played the game (by that logic Mourinho and Rodgers should never have been anywhere near the men's game).
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I never said men would be great at managing the women's game so you are making that bit up for starters. Haven't women managers been more successful than men in the women's game anyway? So i think there is very much the case women managers can get more out of women players than men.

But you are conflating points here to argue against a strawman here rather than addressing the points i actually made.

Firstly i am saying if you take a woman's manager and drop them into the men's game immediately -then of course there are going to be significant differences to dealing with a group of all male to all female athletes - that is common sense. If you are landing day 1 without having the experience to know exactly how to deal with all those differences you are on the back foot and getting buy in will be even tougher. It's not to say they can't learn, they almost certainly could given a bit of experience - but you can't be appointed a manager before you have that experience and expect it to work.

Secondly i didn't say you needed to play the mens game - i said you needed experience in the men's game - it's a complete false to say Murinho and Rodgers had no experience in the men's game.

Murinho was managing local minnows in Portugal when Lisbon needed a person with football understanding to be translator for Bobby Robson, he got the job and after a while of being a translator in the dressing room he started to get coaching responsibilities and ended up being Robsons assistant manager at Lisbon, then went with him to Porto and Barca. When Robson was sacked at Barca he stayed on as Van Gaal's assistant before he got a chance to be a manager in his own right.

Rodgers started working with kids at Readings academy, worked his way up to head of academy, then went on to Chelsea academy, then worked his way up to through the ages to reserve team manager there working under Murinho, Grant and Scolari before he got a chance to manage a first team side.

Murinho and Rodgers were as experienced as you could ask in the men's game prior to taking up their first managers job.
 
moonay said:
KDZ, you said that women couldn't manage male professional footballers, (what, with their big egos etc) regardless of their experience.

Oh, I don't think TB is saying the same as you at all.

Any road ... match time.
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No i didn't, you are putting words i didn't say in my mouth.

My first post in this thread #11:

'I don't think it's impossible that a woman could transition to be a successful manager in the men's game one day but think it's a giant stretch to think right now someone could successfully jump from managing a women's team to a professional men's team.'

Post #16

'If you've never worked in the management of a men's team (or at the very least experienced management from the other side as a player) you're not going to be well placed to deal with it and it is inevitably going to be different from the women's side of the game - likely bigger egos, more confrontational, etc. It's not to say you can't and wouldn't adapt but it's hard to learn on the job when you are also trying to stamp your authority and get buy in. I'd put a man who's never played the men's game in exactly the same category - you need that type of experience.'

Post #25

'As i already said if you take a man who successfully managed in the women's game or a man who managed a a significantly lower level and you bring them into a mens pro team, or even taking a manager from a country where the men's game wasn't as developed as ours - they are going to struggle without the experience of that level as much as any woman. It's not a gender issue it's a experience issue.'

My position is the same as TB's which you liked - a successful woman manager would need to get experience in the men's game but without that they would struggle transition. You said yourself - you didn't think any woman has that experience currently - yet i'm inferred as being sexist for pointing out the type of things that they would be adapting to in that experience. I think you're trying to accuse me of sexism without actually saying it overtly and i think that is inaccurate and unfair from what i've said.
 
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KDZ, I apologise if I misread what you were saying between the lines. It still appears to me that you were implying that women managers wouldn't be able to handle the male egos, and overcome the fact that they didn't play at the top (pro, not Prem) level, but if you didn't mean that, then I take it back.

All I'm bothered about right now is that result !!!
;)
 
moonay said:
KDZ, you said that women couldn't manage male professional footballers, (what, with their big egos etc) regardless of their experience.

Oh, I don't think TB is saying the same as you at all.

Any road ... match time.
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I'm simply saying that any female that wants to manage a male professional outfit will need to gain experience by starting in a coaching position and proving themselves before moving up to a #2 position and so on.

I see no reason why a female could not be put in charge of a men's team if she was experienced enough.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
I'm simply saying that any female that wants to manage a male professional outfit will need to gain experience by starting in a coaching position and proving themselves before moving up to a #2 position and so on.

I see no reason why a female could not be put in charge of a men's team if she was experienced enough.
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Absolutely. I agree.
 
moonay said:
KDZ, I apologise if I misread what you were saying between the lines. It still appears to me that you were implying that women managers wouldn't be able to handle the male egos, and overcome the fact that they didn't play at the top (pro, not Prem) level, but if you didn't mean that, then I take it back.

All I'm bothered about right now is that result !!!
;)
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No worries. Apology accepted.

The point was about lacking experience in dealing with the men's side of the game. If a woman started coaching in the men's game to get that experience and they had the sufficient skills then there's no reason they couldn't step up to be a manager in their own right eventually. It's no different than if we wanted to hire a man without that same experience.

I think FGR have a woman who run's their academy and been in the men's game for a number of years - she's probably got as much chance of successfully transitioning to a manager as a man with the same experience. But if we took a manager from the woman's premier league who's only coached women (even if they were a man themselves) and dropped her into L2 overnight i think they'd struggle and learning on the job would probably undermine your authority from day one.
 
The ability to read and coach the game isn't limited by gender/race/sexuality in a way more than any other profession. Female coaches work with men in athletics and get great results. Experience also isn't an issue. Many managers have achieved far greater success than their playing ability would ever allow. I just hope any appointment is done correctly and on merit because the first female coach will undoubtedly be subject to an unbalanced level of scrutiny that very few male coaches would endure
 
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