West brom Match thread

[Pope John XXIII]

Really don't get the hate for Walker.

Showed plenty of desire to bomb down the pitch and get the second v Leeds.

SL made too many changes v Charlton, but Walker had a great near post flick which just went wide and another first time shot straight at the keeper. Grabban has done no better lately.

Came on for the last 10 minutes v WBA and we equalised. Not sure if he was involved in the move.

Lazy? Or told to stay up the pitch. Can't score if he gets no service. Sky said of Grabban at HT v WBA that he had fewer touches than anyone else but had no service.

Get off the lad's back and he might just reward you.

Just as Yates has committed the crime of not being Samba Sow, Walker's crime is that he is not Grabban.

Football fans all across the country all angrily clamour for the young players to be given a chance- Mighten, Johnson etc- until it becomes clear that they aren't as good as the more experienced players, when they are suddenly declared as shit

Walker is about half the size of Grabban, both physically and mentally. He has about half the tactical awareness and about a fifth of the experience.

I don't think he is lazy; I just don't think he has a clue where to be running and what to he doing off the ball in the way Grabban does.

This lad has hit 25 and 16 in L2 and L1 respectively. He knows how to score goals. The problem is, those sides obviously played to his strengths while ours is set up to play to Grabban's; and even he has had to use all his experience to adapt. When we started with him under Karanka people were saying that he wasn't a good lone striker at all. He has had to learn to be effective in that role.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Was Grabban hitting 25 a season at the same age as Tyler is now playing at this level

In fact had Grabban scored as many goals as TW at the same age?

Remember there is almost 10 years in age and experience between the 2

https://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=41904

In fairness, Walker isn't scoring 25 "a season".

But at the same age, and in the same leagues as Walker, Grabban had scored 18 (L2) and 13 (L1)

 

[mao tse tung]

Really don't get the hate for Walker.

Showed plenty of desire to bomb down the pitch and get the second v Leeds.

SL made too many changes v Charlton, but Walker had a great near post flick which just went wide and another first time shot straight at the keeper. Grabban has done no better lately.

Came on for the last 10 minutes v WBA and we equalised. Not sure if he was involved in the move.

Lazy? Or told to stay up the pitch. Can't score if he gets no service. Sky said of Grabban at HT v WBA that he had fewer touches than anyone else but had no service.

Get off the lad's back and he might just reward you.

If you feel compelled to contribute to the discussion it really would help if you attempted to read what has been posted.

There is no hate for Walker, just an observation that he does not look interested in taking a golden opportunity that has come his way.

If he is deputising for Grabban it is perfectly reasonable to compare him to Grabban; and that comparison extends far beyond goal scoring, although for some people the role of the forward is still one of scoring goals; thankfully Lamouchi has different ideas..

Grabban may have hit a lean spell and missed a few chances which he would normally have put away, but his work rate has not dropped.

Grabban is our first line of defence, he presses when needed and forces the opposition to play down a particular side on other occasions; Walker does not show the first inclination to do this.

Grabban holds the ball up, drops deep when needed and brings other players into the game; something else which Walker does not do, and I do not believe for one minute he is not being asked to do this.

The window of opportunity for Walker to establish himself can now be measured in minutes, not days or weeks, minutes; and if he does not take that opportunity he only has himself to blame.

If he feels he needs any advice he only has to speak with Cash, Worrall or Yates, because for any failings those players have they do not include work ethic, determination or having the correct attitude.

 

[NQ's Finest]

Hard work and determination will win out over talent with no application every time. SL’s system requires everybody puts a shift in and sadly Carvalho hasn’t got the drive and desire to do the hard work off the ball. Without this basic necessity he will continue not to feature in Sabri’s plans. Talented he might be (although I’m still not convinced he’s that exceptional) but unless he is prepared to graft for the greater good of the team he’ll be gone in the summer. He may well prosper under a manager who places less emphasis on the physical demands off the ball but you can expect this type of situation when you chop and change managers and football ethos every 6/8 months. Shame because the13m we spunked on Carvalho that could well have been spent on 2-3 quality players at this level.

 

[DR Forest]

I don’t hate walker either- I just think the impact he brings is limited by his inexperience Generally and lack of familiarity with SL’s system. That might click soon or it might not. What is clear is that he’s only here because we failed to bring in any uk target we might have had capable of hitting the ground running. And that’s where the blame lies imo.

 

[radfordinlondon]

Really don't get the hate for Walker.

Showed plenty of desire to bomb down the pitch and get the second v Leeds.

SL made too many changes v Charlton, but Walker had a great near post flick which just went wide and another first time shot straight at the keeper. Grabban has done no better lately.

Came on for the last 10 minutes v WBA and we equalised. Not sure if he was involved in the move.

Lazy? Or told to stay up the pitch. Can't score if he gets no service. Sky said of Grabban at HT v WBA that he had fewer touches than anyone else but had no service.

Get off the lad's back and he might just reward you.

Glad to see im not the only one thinking this. Spot on imo

 

[Polly 433]

It is completely unfair to judge anyone on two 10 minute cameo’s and 90 mins when whole team was off. In the short period of time he has been on the pitch for Forest (total about a game and a half) he has scored a goal, hit the post and struck the goalkeeper. Two out of the three games he appeared was against the top two in league. As for lazy, he almost certain certainly told to stay up against WBA as they were chasing the game. You are harsh critics.

 

[Will.NFFC]

It’s not harsh critics. We’ve never had this question about Worrall, Cash, Yates or anyone in the squad this season and as for youngsters, in any of the seasons previously.

nobody is disputing he got a goal at Leeds or hit the post but he never wants the ball or makes runs. Now people can say “you can’t judge on 10 minute cameos”. Actually yes you can when it comes to attitude. I’m not criticizing his strength or speed or even ability (I don’t rate him but don’t think that’s the question here), I’m suggesting that a young player back from a loan spell with an opportunity to shine should put his all in, and I’m sorry, in every game he’s played so far, all be it perhaps in limited game time, he hasn’t shown much desire.

People suggesting it’s a confidence or ‘not knowing SL that well’ - but we aren’t having this conversation about any of the other new players, including Diakhaby, who even though he isn’t very good, still gets himself involved. I think to excuse somebody not chasing balls down and defenders as being down to tactics is a real cop out.

After we equalized, they got the ball on the wing and just as they were about to cross, 32 year old Lewis Grabban who has been on the pitch all game, came from knowhere into the RB Position and took the ball from them and cleared - that’s the difference and I think the youngster looking to make an impression should have the instinct to do something like that. He’s 23, not 18. Look at Mightens attitude at Chelsea, look at our own flourishing youngesters, half of cash’s value let’s face it stems from endevour.
All I’m saying is, work harder for the team. If he doesn’t have the rest of the package, no problem, because he at least works his arse off.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Hard work and determination will win out over talent with no application every time. SL’s system requires everybody puts a shift in and sadly Carvalho hasn’t got the drive and desire to do the hard work off the ball. Without this basic necessity he will continue not to feature in Sabri’s plans. Talented he might be (although I’m still not convinced he’s that exceptional) but unless he is prepared to graft for the greater good of the team he’ll be gone in the summer. He may well prosper under a manager who places less emphasis on the physical demands off the ball but you can expect this type of situation when you chop and change managers and football ethos every 6/8 months. Shame because the13m we spunked on Carvalho that could well have been spent on 2-3 quality players at this level.

I don't think we did, I think we paid a relationship fee...

Carv has also never looked lazy or lacking in enthusiasm, just lacking influence.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

It’s not harsh critics. We’ve never had this question about Worrall, Cash, Yates or anyone in the squad this season and as for youngsters, in any of the seasons previously.

.

We have had exactly this question about both Worrall and Cash and are currently having it about Yates.

Not the work rate thing of course, but it's fundamentally unfair to make that comparison when it's nearly impossible for a centre half in a relatively poor side to "look" lazy.

Almost every young player we have has had this question asked. Cash has been in for plenty of criticism as a winger, especially about his final product. Brereton had the same. Christ, I can remember some of the criticism of Marlon Harewood about just about everything he did.

Walker has been away for 18 months in lower divisions, scoring goals in sides that play completely opposite to us. Sides that will create 10-20 chances per game and his job is to put 1 or 2 of them away. 5%-10% conversion rate required.

He has had about 120 minutes in a side in the higher division that doesn't create 10-20 chances per game; it creates 2 or 3, four on a good day and the entire game plan is that the players have to be ruthless and convert at least one of them (and it might not be him those chances come to). More like a 50%-75% conversion rate needed against better defenders.

Aside from the fact that criticism of his style of play after one start and two sub appearances is wholly inappropriate, I don't get why people are not willing to make allowances for his complete lack of any experience of being a lone front man in this system?

You could argue that it took Grabban 6 months( being kind) to 12 months (being realistic) to master the exact lone striker role we require of him. A player 8 years younger isn't doing it after two hours and it's his fault, he is lazy?

Just doesn't seem fair to me. He perhaps isnt what we need right now, but you can put the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the acquisition panel who have failed for two consecutive windows to get Grabban adequately covered.

Not convinced Walker will ever be the kind of player we need for this particular kind of side, bit that's not his fault and is no reflection on him. In a side like QPR he would do really well.

And Walker has more talent in one foot than Mir had in his whole body, no matter how many bullshit useless overhead kicks he tried.

 

[LynxRed]

Walkers been back in the squad for two weeks. Give the lad chance to get some training sessions under his belt, and recieve some coaching from Sabri on how he wants him to play and what is required/expected of him. It's ludicrous to be writing him off as lazy, disinterested, lacking work ethic. Believe me, Lincoln City require a shift from their players, Tyler included. And Lincoln fans love him. They aren't punching above their weight in league one by carrying lazy players.

 

[Our Kids Dad]

I don't think we did, I think we paid a relationship fee...

Carv has also never looked lazy or lacking in enthusiasm, just lacking influence.

He's not really getting game time and he's not even making the bench ahead of Semedo.

Silva looked very tired against West Brom - I wonder if Sabri could give Carvalho an opportunity in the No.10 role against QPR?

 

[Polly 433]

It’s not harsh critics. We’ve never had this question about Worrall, Cash, Yates or anyone in the squad this season and as for youngsters, in any of the seasons previously.

nobody is disputing he got a goal at Leeds or hit the post but he never wants the ball or makes runs. Now people can say “you can’t judge on 10 minute cameos”. Actually yes you can when it comes to attitude. I’m not criticizing his strength or speed or even ability (I don’t rate him but don’t think that’s the question here), I’m suggesting that a young player back from a loan spell with an opportunity to shine should put his all in, and I’m sorry, in every game he’s played so far, all be it perhaps in limited game time, he hasn’t shown much desire.

People suggesting it’s a confidence or ‘not knowing SL that well’ - but we aren’t having this conversation about any of the other new players, including Diakhaby, who even though he isn’t very good, still gets himself involved. I think to excuse somebody not chasing balls down and defenders as being down to tactics is a real cop out.

After we equalized, they got the ball on the wing and just as they were about to cross, 32 year old Lewis Grabban who has been on the pitch all game, came from knowhere into the RB Position and took the ball from them and cleared - that’s the difference and I think the youngster looking to make an impression should have the instinct to do something like that. He’s 23, not 18. Look at Mightens attitude at Chelsea, look at our own flourishing youngesters, half of cash’s value let’s face it stems from endevour.
All I’m saying is, work harder for the team. If he doesn’t have the rest of the package, no problem, because he at least works his arse off.

Still think you are being harsh. He was told to stay up and Grabban was moved to right centre thus tracking back. In Lge 1 and 2 you don’t get the number of goals that Walker has by not making runs. At no stage over his loans out did management or fans question his work rate. I watched him over 4 games when at Mansfield and can assure you he worked hard and made runs. He hasn’t played much with likes of Ameobi, Ruberio, Sow or Silva. You maybe right. I will be watching his runs and workrate more closely before offering judgement. Some on here are also critical of Grabban workrate. They expect full speed, cover, breakdown, track back and attacking runs all the time. Hard to do playing lone striker.

 

[Will.NFFC]

We have had exactly this question about both Worrall and Cash and are currently having it about Yates.

Not the work rate thing of course, but it's fundamentally unfair to make that comparison when it's nearly impossible for a centre half in a relatively poor side to "look" lazy.

Almost every young player we have has had this question asked. Cash has been in for plenty of criticism as a winger, especially about his final product. Brereton had the same. Christ, I can remember some of the criticism of Marlon Harewood about just about everything he did.

Walker has been away for 18 months in lower divisions, scoring goals in sides that play completely opposite to us. Sides that will create 10-20 chances per game and his job is to put 1 or 2 of them away. 5%-10% conversion rate required.

He has had about 120 minutes in a side in the higher division that doesn't create 10-20 chances per game; it creates 2 or 3, four on a good day and the entire game plan is that the players have to be ruthless and convert at least one of them (and it might not be him those chances come to). More like a 50%-75% conversion rate needed against better defenders.

Aside from the fact that criticism of his style of play after one start and two sub appearances is wholly inappropriate, I don't get why people are not willing to make allowances for his complete lack of any experience of being a lone front man in this system?

You could argue that it took Grabban 6 months( being kind) to 12 months (being realistic) to master the exact lone striker role we require of him. A player 8 years younger isn't doing it after two hours and it's his fault, he is lazy?

Just doesn't seem fair to me. He perhaps isnt what we need right now, but you can put the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the acquisition panel who have failed for two consecutive windows to get Grabban adequately covered.

And Walker has more talent in one foot than Mir had in his whole body, no matter how many bullshit useless overhead kicks he tried.

And I’ve made it abundantly clear in my post that this isn’t a question of his ability and purely of his work rate and desire. That has never been under question for Cash, Worrall or Yates.

I will never berate somebody for not being good enough and that’s what I’ve steered clear of doing, but I’m sorry, whether it’s 120 minutes or 120 games, showing desire shouldn’t be in question and in my opinion it’s a question mark with walker- perhaps it’s being emphasized by a lack of understanding when it comes to how we play. That’s tough luck for Tyler, but if he knows he’s struggling to get the ball or doesn’t know what exactly he should be doing, which I agree in this forest side is understandable, like at Charlton, drop deeper and make yourself a nuisance. You don’t have to understand SL’s tactics to put yourself about.
Perhaps that is and understanding thing in itself, but that’s concerning that it doesn’t come naturally at his age.

 

[Will.NFFC]

Still think you are being harsh. He was told to stay up and Grabban was moved to right centre thus tracking back. In Lge 1 and 2 you don’t get the number of goals that Walker has by not making runs. At no stage over his loans out did management or fans question his work rate. I watched him over 4 games when at Mansfield and can assure you he worked hard and made runs. He hasn’t played much with likes of Ameobi, Ruberio, Sow or Silva. You maybe right. I will be watching his runs and workrate more closely before offering judgement. Some on here are also critical of Grabban workrate. They expect full speed, cover, breakdown, track back and attacking runs all the time. Hard to do playing lone striker.

Agree that fundamentally it must have been different at other clubs, but basing it purely on Forest, it’s really standing out for me. Don’t want to look like I’ve got it in for him because I assure you I want him to do well, but hardwork is a minimum for me and given that this squad works it’s arse off every game, it frustrates me that a younger player with a point to prove isn’t necessarily putting in the graft of his colleagues who he’s battling for a place against: that’s honestly all it is for me.

 

[Our Kids Dad]

Walkers been back in the squad for two weeks. Give the lad chance to get some training sessions under his belt, and recieve some coaching from Sabri on how he wants him to play and what is required/expected of him. It's ludicrous to be writing him off as lazy, disinterested, lacking work ethic. Believe me, Lincoln City require a shift from their players, Tyler included. And Lincoln fans love him. They aren't punching above their weight in league one by carrying lazy players.

Exactly - Stags fans love Walker too - despite his playoff penalty miss.

There is a good footballer there, that has visibly matured, but he needs time to adjust to the role that he's being asked to play under SL.

He can also play in the wide right position of the front 3, stick by and support him - he is so much better than Rafa Mir.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

And I’ve made it abundantly clear in my post that this isn’t a question of his ability and purely of his work rate and desire. That has never been under question for Cash, Worrall or Yates.

I will never berate somebody for not being good enough and that’s what I’ve steered clear of doing, but I’m sorry, whether it’s 120 minutes or 120 games, showing desire shouldn’t be in question and in my opinion it’s a question mark with walker- perhaps it’s being emphasized by a lack of understanding when it comes to how we play. That’s tough luck for Tyler, but if he knows he’s struggling to get the ball or doesn’t know what exactly he should be doing, which I agree in this forest side is understandable, like at Charlton, drop deeper and make yourself a nuisance. You don’t have to understand SL’s tactics to put yourself about.
Perhaps that is and understanding thing in itself, but that’s concerning that it doesn’t come naturally at his age.

As I was saying, it isn't fair to compare a striker's workrate to those of a defender, a defensive midfielder or a winger.

All three positions are much more in the centre of the action. All of them are in positions where the player is going to receive, and consequently have to make, far more passes per game than a striker.

There is simply no comparison. How on earth could Worrall ever look lazy? Just because of what the opposition do, he is always going to be busy. That is especially so if his own team don't do their jobs properly.

If the opposition do their jobs well and forest don't, a striker will look lazy because they aren't getting any action. Grabban has been accused of it as well. Just about every striker is when things aren't going well.

The alternative is to leave your position and go seek the ball out just to get some touches. But the problem is you end up like Harris, Cox or Brereton; you are seen as hard working but you are never in a position to score and your scoring rate is crap; criticism comes your way for that instead. You could argue that all three of those players were ruined (as forest players at least) by trying to 'put themselves about' rather than sticking to their core instincts to try to be in the right place and being open to criticism if a rare chance never comes or is fluffed.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

He's not really getting game time and he's not even making the bench ahead of Semedo.

Silva looked very tired against West Brom - I wonder if Sabri could give Carvalho an opportunity in the No.10 role against QPR?

I really hope so, Semedo really doesn't have a huge amount to offer and he's not even our player.

Btw it wasn't a penalty on Saturday

 

[Our Kids Dad]

I really hope so, Semedo really doesn't have a huge amount to offer and he's not even our player.

Btw it wasn't a penalty on Saturday

Exactly, I'm not convinced by Semedo & would much rather we gave Carvalho game time.


What wasn't a penalty - the handball?

I thought it was, he appeared to move his hand towards the ball - most of the pundits agreed too.

I wasn't sure why their 3rd was disallowed either, although I was more disappointed that we couldn't manage the game & conceded a daft free kick in the first place.

 

[seasider red]

When there is a discussion about talent v effort / work my mind always goes back to Jason Lee, no one could argue that he was the most talented centre forward we've ever had, but my word did he make up for it in the effort he put, and consequently most fans accepted the lack of talent because they could see that he was at least trying to make the best of that talent that he did have through sheer physical effort, and he had the disadvantage of direct comparison with SVC, but still the fans on the whole accepted him for what he was.