US Presidential election | Page 23 | Vital Football

US Presidential election

LockdownLife said:
He's now at the point where I'd argue he's inciting, at best, serious civil unrest and at worst violence. If it wasn't politics but other ideologies he'd be banned.

On social media its becoming too easy for people to whip themselves into a frenzy. Meetings of groups of people in person would be shut down if they behaved how people behave on social media.

Clearly intelligence should not change someone's right to make a political choice. But equally you shouldn't let someone like Trump prey on those desperate for a cause to fight for. Some of these rioters will have probably led fairly 'normal' lives up until about 5 years ago I'm guessing.
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I hear what you say LL, but the thing is, until such time as he is formally unseated (which could be imminent) he is still POTUS and media moguls should not be the arbiters of free speech. People like Nobby have to stand in the face violence in order that free speech is maintained, it`s quite a challenge some times ;)
 
Buddha said:
Trump and his supporters have been muddying the waters for last four years and more. His and their aim has been to create a climate whereby it is difficult to obtain objective truth about anything. Sure, he has been aided by the way in which social media works but the entire, 'fake news', mantra was being peddled for a good reason.
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What looking-glass world do you live in ?

From before Trump's inauguration the media's knives were out - inventing "controversies".

Since then, we've had 4 years of Trump being reported inaccurately....
..... perhaps the most egregious being when a journalist "suggested" consuming bleach against Covid - but somehow the "suggestion" became Trump's !

Even GW Bush was allowed to get past inauguration before opponents started belittling his mannerisms.

For years people have been wondering why the "news" so often jars with reality.
Now they know.
Much of the media has an "agenda" which most people outside their media/metro world do not share.
 
Buddha said:
Now he has it, he has the lie about the election fraud and the presidency being stolen from him and, more importantly, a shitload of people who believe the lie and are questioning the US democracy. This is his and America's, 'stab in the back moment'.

Who knows what will happen but it if enough people feel betrayed by democracy that they are willing to act, or even refuse to condemn those who do take action, .
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How do you know that election fraud is a "lie" ?
Because the NY Times/Guardian says so ??

Are you seriously saying that no one, repeat no-one voted when they had no right to do so - or voted twice (i.e. using a householder's mail-in ballot)

Scores of irregularities have been reported - incl to a Senate Hearing in mid-December - so reports of "no evidence" are bunkem.

Whether the number of irregularities would be enough to change the result is a different matter.....
.....but to keep asserting with ever more intensity "no evidence of fraud/ irregularity" just makes you look foolish / biased....
.....more interested in defending a "result" you like rather than defending democracy itself.

Buddha said:
Who knows what will happen but it if enough people feel betrayed by democracy that they are willing to act, or even refuse to condemn those who do take action, well then you have the conditions ripe for civil war and dictatorship.
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At least you seem to recognise why thousands of Trump supporters rallied at the Capitol.

Buddha said:
We must hope that the actions last night were an own goal and that support for Trump in the US has fallen massively as a result of what has happened. If not, if he retains the support and people continue to buy the lie and the victimhood then their democracy might be under serious threat.
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It's not as if you haven't made clear your bias.

Could that explain why you "buy the lie" that there is "no evidence of electoral fraud / irregularity" ?
 
Trump supporting moron at work says the demonstrations against a democratic vote is justified - he is the same idiot that was moaning about the Remainer demonstrations!
 
Blimey Tarian, have you had a lobotomy? More than 60 legal challenges by Trump were rejected. Just because he says something a lot, doesn't mean it's true! There probably were some irregularities - there are in every election, including in the UK. But the point is that Trump lost by quite a distance. By spouting all his conspiracy crap, you are legimitising a guy who just incited violence against the symbolic seat of US democracy and has allied himself with white supremacists. Are those really your values? They're certainly not mine. The past 24 hours have revealed the monster Trump really is.
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
It`ll be interesting to get Jokerman`s take on all this.

A few hundred or a few thousand extremist idiots storming the Capitol building cannot, surely, be a valid representation of the 74 million people that voted Trump into the Oval Office.

A concern might be : what does the fact that 74 million Americans voted for Donald Trump say about the alternative presidential contenders and politics in the USA in general ?

When the so called Beacon of Democracy drops into such a confused and divisive hole the rest of the world should be worried.

I need some reassurance from the Guv`nor.
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You’ve asked the 74 million dollar question there. Does his support hold up and, if it does, what does that say about the US? I’m hoping, of course, that most of them say they didn’t sign on for this.

For what it’s worth, I think this was not a coup or insurrection. It was a relatively peaceful, very large demonstration or protest. A classic occupy protest, not storming the Winter Palace. No plans but to show how angry they are and then pack up. They also showed how deluded and weird they are.

The Republican legislators who rode the Trump tiger are in a fix. They can’t get off without facing primary challenges from the believers, but staying on is looking hairy.

NBC’s guy in London made a good point on the mainstream news last night. The anchor asked him if the rest of the world was surprised. He said no. The rest of the world has almost expected it.

My friends are upset, and hoping this is a boil lanced rather than a stew bubbling. Turns out two weeks is also a long time in politics.
 
Attorney General William Barr said his department have found no fraud on a level that could have altered the outcome of the election.

Republicans such as George W. Bush and Mitt Romney have accused the President of inciting insurretion.

Even Mike Pence hs distanced himself from Trump.

Those who continue to maintain there has been election fraud are looking more and more desperate, and more and more insane.
 
jokerman said:
You’ve asked the 74 million dollar question there. Does his support hold up and, if it does, what does that say about the US? I’m hoping, of course, that most of them say they didn’t sign on for this.

For what it’s worth, I think this was not a coup or insurrection. It was a relatively peaceful, very large demonstration or protest. A classic occupy protest, not storming the Winter Palace. No plans but to show how angry they are and then pack up. They also showed how deluded and weird they are.

The Republican legislators who rode the Trump tiger are in a fix. They can’t get off without facing primary challenges from the believers, but staying on is looking hairy.

NBC’s guy in London made a good point on the mainstream news last night. The anchor asked him if the rest of the world was surprised. He said no. The rest of the world has almost expected it.

My friends are upset, and hoping this is a boil lanced rather than a stew bubbling. Turns out two weeks is also a long time in politics.
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Thanks for your comments, jokerman.

I'd agree that the it was a rather lame and pathetic attempt at a coup or insurrection but I find it hard to accept your suggestion that this was anything like an Occupy protest. These peope had guns and there have been death. Public servants were cowering behind their seats. I've never seen any Occupy protests where people have been terrified; where people are brandishing guns; certainly no deaths.
 
LockdownLife said:
He's now at the point where I'd argue he's inciting, at best, serious civil unrest and at worst violence.
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When will people comment on what Trump actually said - and not how the media frame stuff ?
If Trump had actually "incited ... civil unrest" surely that footage would have been everywhere.
Instead we say Trump talking about walking to the Capitol peacefully -which the vast majority of Trump supporters did....
...then later urging people to go home "and not play into the hands of our opponents" (looking for any excuse to tar Trump supporters)

Of course when the TV voice-over says repeatedly that people "stormed" the Capitol .....
.....while showing people calmly walking up the Capitol's steps....even filing across a lobby respecting a rope cordon.....

As people remember BLM rallies, with shops looted, some burning, street furniture chucked everywhere.....
....with voice-overs describing a "peaceful protest".

...what is the confused viewer expected to think ?

LockdownLife said:
If it wasn't politics but other ideologies he'd be banned.
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Yup. That's Cancel Culture.
If you don't like it, shut it down.

LockdownLife said:
On social media its becoming too easy for people to whip themselves into a frenzy. Meetings of groups of people in person would be shut down if they behaved how people behave on social media.
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Agreed.
That's what happens when people repeat unevidenced assertions - aggressively and coupled with abuse.

LockdownLife said:
Clearly intelligence should not change someone's right to make a political choice. But equally you shouldn't let someone like Trump prey on those desperate for a cause to fight for.
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Q. How can different people see the same "facts" and draw opposite conclusions ?
A1. When political commentators mis-represent an opponent, giving permission for others to repeat the "lie"
A2. When the media re-frame those facts to create an opposite impression.

Either there are objective "truths" or there is chaos.
Genuine freedom has a fight on its hands.

LockdownLife said:
Some of these rioters will have probably led fairly 'normal' lives up until about 5 years ago I'm guessing.
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Which "riot" was that ?
A few scuffles perhaps. but "riot "???:rolleyes:
 
Tarian said:
How do you know that election fraud is a "lie" ?
Because the NY Times/Guardian says so ??

Are you seriously saying that no one, repeat no-one voted when they had no right to do so - or voted twice (i.e. using a householder's mail-in ballot)

Scores of irregularities have been reported - incl to a Senate Hearing in mid-December - so reports of "no evidence" are bunkem.

Whether the number of irregularities would be enough to change the result is a different matter.....
.....but to keep asserting with ever more intensity "no evidence of fraud/ irregularity" just makes you look foolish / biased....
.....more interested in defending a "result" you like rather than defending democracy itself.


At least you seem to recognise why thousands of Trump supporters rallied at the Capitol.


It's not as if you haven't made clear your bias.

Could that explain why you "buy the lie" that there is "no evidence of electoral fraud / irregularity" ?
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it seems to me that the Republicans had shifted yesterday from claiming wide-scale fraud which they are incapable of demonstrating to questioning the constitutionality of rule changes on voting in Penn considerably prior to the election. It was quite impressive how leading Republican after leading Republican demolished the case. To maintain the election was stolen, you have to have just about the whole universe in on the conspiracy.

Trump lost -biggly. Georgia confirmed it. But Trumpism and its causes are all still there, and I don’t see the new crew being able to do much about it.
 
Buddha said:
Thanks for your comments, jokerman.

I'd agree that the it was a rather lame and pathetic attempt at a coup or insurrection but I find it hard to accept your suggestion that this was anything like an Occupy protest. These peope had guns and there have been death. Public servants were cowering behind their seats. I've never seen any Occupy protests where people have been terrified; where people are brandishing guns; certainly no deaths.
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surely you experienced a moment’s thrill as the people surged up the steps and put the shits up an indignant political class pontificating about the sacredness of their blessed routines? I permitted myself a wry smile before resuming my grown up identity.
 
Buddha said:
Attorney General William Barr said his department have found no fraud on a level that could have altered the outcome of the election.
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Thank you.
That wasn't hard.

Surely you would accept that any and all voting irregularities should be mitigated against ?
"Learning lessons" etc ???

Buddha said:
Those who continue to maintain there has been election fraud are looking more and more desperate, and more and more insane.
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Yet you now accept that there was probably some fraud / irregularity ????:shake:

Unless they are investigated - properly - how will it ever be quantified ?
(But of course, "winners" don't care ....
.....unless the very same irregularities come back to bite them....)
 
jokerman said:
Trump lost -biggly.
Georgia confirmed it.
But Trumpism and its causes are all still there, and I don’t see the new crew being able to do much about it.
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"lost biggly" ???
Keep telling yourself that.

Votes for Trump = 74,222,958 - more than in 2016 (62,984,825) - and more than for any other Presidential candidate ever - except one.

Why does the "left" keep deceiving itself around the degree of opposition - by ordinary people?
 
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Tarian, you're making a right tit and arse* of yourself here, all at once.

Please don't stop, it's pure comedy gold and I'm loving every moment of it.


* This is a colloquial way of suggesting that you're making a fool of yourself, just in case your literal and pedantic mind was having trouble deciphering my meaning here.
 
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