Under 23s | Page 4 | Vital Football

Under 23s

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#61
Apparently Blackburn will be scaling back to cat 2 because they don't feel it gives value for money.
will it for us?
Right now it seems productive but do we know the costs of running it?
Either way we still get good fees and I dont see particularly higher fees for unknown cat 1 u23's.
It will require more investment and operating costs. Chelski n Manure are still going to attract the players they want to attract and in that sense we are a long way off Cat 1 as a club.
I suppose the one arguement is that they will play against better opposition so be better equiped for our first team. Tho Im not really sure it will as if they are that good at Cat 1 u23's then they should prob be in our first team anyway
 

finbar70

Vital Reserves Team
#63
The second half was tremendous; proper end to end football which was as good as you will get at this level, and quite fitting that it was first playing second in the table.

Sheffield United came storming back into the game straight after the break with wave after wave of attack, and, just after it looked like we had weathered the storm, they scored from a really well worked goal.

The left back cut in towards the box, and exchanged passes before hitting a good shot into the far corner which gave George Shelvey no chance.

United were well on top at this point but the goal did little more than spark an excellent revival.

A well worked move through the centre found Baba Ferndandez (centre half!) out on the left; he waltzed round the full back before pulling the ball back for Dekel Daks to score, 1 - 1

And with five minutes remaining, Gibson Hammond, who was played through with an inch perfect pass from Josh Barnes, calmly put the ball past the keeper.

The commentary team gave Gibson Hammond man of the match, who played well; there was only one candidate for me, Fin Back.

This kid has all the attributes to be a good player; athletic, gets up and down the pitch well, good passer of the ball, good positional awareness, strong in the tackle and good in the air, and he has that one commodity all good defenders need, a nasty streak.

As far as money spent on watching football is concerned, that is the best £4 I have spent this year.
Hey Mao,

For some reason I stumbled across a 6 minute highlight reel of the U23 game you commented on above.
2 things which stood out. Our right back looked really, really good!! Reminded me of the United player Williams. Quick, aggressive (sometimes too aggressive but love it) energetic and a real prospect here. The other was the CB, Fernandes. Both looked like they have what it takes to step up, but Finn Back was awesome
 

BlackGold

Vital Squad Member
#64
Think Ive had that discussion with someone else, forgive me forgetting who it was just now, Old Red I think. I dont buy too much into the not developed enough yet arguements, you can only play whos in front of you and if you look good and win games, youre quite possibly good enough, Sure they need time against better opposition, tho its debateable that playing against chelsea u23's is easier than half the championship sides so they might as well learn in our league. It aint that great lets be realistic, quality isnt in abundance
Please refer to Derby’s youth player against Chorley town. It was a one-off game, but Forest’s undercooked academy players would be hammered 5-0, or possibly worse, in every game in the Championship.

Another example would be the routine annihilations that Bolton suffered last season, in league one, when forced to play their kids.

What makes you think NFFCs youth would be any different?
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#65
you cant take a one off game as an example and none is talking about literally playing a bunch of teenagers. Play chelsea u23's versus chorley it may well have been 5-0 to the chelsea kids.

But we are talking u23's here, if they aint cut out for Championship footy before that age then lets face it they arent our ongoing concern anyway. BUT, we could viably and justifiably have *had) a squad that includes half a dozen of these home grown talents. The Championship I just think is over rated anyway, theres a gnats whisker between players in the championship to the lower leagues, much smaller than the gap between the Premership and the Championship
 

BlackGold

Vital Squad Member
#66
you cant take a one off game as an example and none is talking about literally playing a bunch of teenagers. Play chelsea u23's versus chorley it may well have been 5-0 to the chelsea kids.

But we are talking u23's here, if they aint cut out for Championship footy before that age then lets face it they arent our ongoing concern anyway. BUT, we could viably and justifiably have *had) a squad that includes half a dozen of these home grown talents. The Championship I just think is over rated anyway, theres a gnats whisker between players in the championship to the lower leagues, much smaller than the gap between the Premership and the Championship
What about Bolton playing their kids in League One?
Saved only when two of our old boys - bridcutt and Murphy - signed to bring them stability.
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#67
What about Bolton playing their kids in League One?
Saved only when two of our old boys - bridcutt and Murphy - signed to bring them stability.
I cant account for other clubs kids etc and if they are any good or have ther right attitude and I dont think a 16 year old is the finished article.

But jeez, look at Englands football squad man, must be 20 u23's in that squad who are as good as anyone in the world so it isnt an age thing, its whether youre good enough thing and we're still talking Championship not European football. Need to cut your cloth accordingly
 

BlackGold

Vital Squad Member
#68
I cant account for other clubs kids etc and if they are any good or have ther right attitude and I dont think a 16 year old is the finished article.

But jeez, look at Englands football squad man, must be 20 u23's in that squad who are as good as anyone in the world so it isnt an age thing, its whether youre good enough thing and we're still talking Championship not European football. Need to cut your cloth accordingly
arguably, international football is a lower standard, at times, than the premiership...those youngsters playing are regulars in their first team side: foden, rashford, mount, rice etc, so playing for England is a step down in terms of opposition.
Sadly, when England have come up against quality opposition in a, properly, competitive game (Belgium twice and Croatia, i discount the Spain game) then they’ve come up short.

whatever the reason is, the management feel that players like Johnson, mighten etc are better served progressing away from forests first team.

what is important, they aren’t being forgotten and are being managed in an appropriate manner than ensures if they become first team regulars their performances will ultimately benefit forest.
 

mao tse tung

Vital Football Hero
#70
Alex Gibson-Hammond has just signed a professional contract. @mao tse tung snd @Our Kids Dad, any clue how good he is? Meant to be a pacey winger
This season is his first with the U23's and he has looked quite promising in the games I have seen him play.

Of the two lads who play wide for the U23s, I would say Alex looks like he has more promise than Keith Asare; he looks fairly pacey and was very composed when he scored during the week
 

Our Kids Dad

Alert Team
Staff member
#72
Alex Gibson-Hammond has just signed a professional contract. @mao tse tung snd @Our Kids Dad, any clue how good he is? Meant to be a pacey winger
Apologies for delay in responding.

We signed AGH from Spurs a couple of years ago, something we do a lot - Forest academy has a great reputation (within football clubs and from a parental perspective) for progressing players, specifically where their development may have stalled a little or where their opportunities at the parent club become limited.

AGH is the school year below Mighten and with Mighten being seen as more ready for first team/loan, we saw an opportunity to recruit.

Certainly a pacy winger, but because he's only been playing u23 this season it's hard to make too much of a judgement - because u23 is nowhere near first team level at Forest or L1/2.

If Reid/Brazil believe he's worth a contract - then, you have to bow to their superior knowledge - sorry, if that's not an answer.
 

Basha73

Vital Football Hero
#73
Apologies for delay in responding.

We signed AGH from Spurs a couple of years ago, something we do a lot - Forest academy has a great reputation (within football clubs and from a parental perspective) for progressing players, specifically where their development may have stalled a little or where their opportunities at the parent club become limited.

AGH is the school year below Mighten and with Mighten being seen as more ready for first team/loan, we saw an opportunity to recruit.

Certainly a pacy winger, but because he's only been playing u23 this season it's hard to make too much of a judgement - because u23 is nowhere near first team level at Forest or L1/2.

If Reid/Brazil believe he's worth a contract - then, you have to bow to their superior knowledge - sorry, if that's not an answer.
If he has ability and the right attitude then he is certainly worth a punt. How many times do we read about players who fall short at the first attempt but are spurred on by their initial failure and come good?

As you say u23 level is only an indicator but it gets him into a mindset and I would expect him to be loaned out next season and that will tell us whether we were right about him.

Despite how rough this season has been I am enjoying the fact that we have so many players out on loan. There can’t be many Championship sides with so many players out there and again, that can only enhance our reputation and standing both with parents and other clubs.
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#74
arguably, international football is a lower standard, at times, than the premiership...those youngsters playing are regulars in their first team side: foden, rashford, mount, rice etc, so playing for England is a step down in terms of opposition.
Sadly, when England have come up against quality opposition in a, properly, competitive game (Belgium twice and Croatia, i discount the Spain game) then they’ve come up short.

whatever the reason is, the management feel that players like Johnson, mighten etc are better served progressing away from forests first team.

what is important, they aren’t being forgotten and are being managed in an appropriate manner than ensures if they become first team regulars their performances will ultimately benefit forest.
having Brazil in a better role bodes well. Altho recent history makes me nervous that they eventually get sacked from that role too and we lose thier talent alltogether. Its very easy to understand our nervousness about those things huh? But surely, eventually, the owners of our club will make so many fook ups that the only route left is to do things properly
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#75
This season is his first with the U23's and he has looked quite promising in the games I have seen him play.

Of the two lads who play wide for the U23s, I would say Alex looks like he has more promise than Keith Asare; he looks fairly pacey and was very composed when he scored during the week
Its hard to judge them on a few games, they are quite inconsistent perhaps, thats where I would admit that 'kids' arent at the level required yet to be in the first team week in week out.

As some of you will know, my folks usually go to most of the kids games and they keep me informed on the exciting ones, Ive really missed the updates, it adds another layer to my club.

Swan is a difficult one to assess. He got in the squad early doors but it feels like the assessment was "nowhere near good enough yet" and he hasnt had a mention by any of us. Sure, he didnt show anything, but what was the reason he was thought good enough in the first place to actually be in the side if he's then totally out of the picture again from a squad that has 3 'old' strikers who have scored half a dozen goals between them in a year?
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#76
Apologies for delay in responding.

We signed AGH from Spurs a couple of years ago, something we do a lot - Forest academy has a great reputation (within football clubs and from a parental perspective) for progressing players, specifically where their development may have stalled a little or where their opportunities at the parent club become limited.

AGH is the school year below Mighten and with Mighten being seen as more ready for first team/loan, we saw an opportunity to recruit.

Certainly a pacy winger, but because he's only been playing u23 this season it's hard to make too much of a judgement - because u23 is nowhere near first team level at Forest or L1/2.

If Reid/Brazil believe he's worth a contract - then, you have to bow to their superior knowledge - sorry, if that's not an answer.
u23's not being as good as league two is a misconception in my opinion. Thats valid if you are playing kids of 16 upwards and not near the first team sure. However if you took the best 6 plus the 6 from the first team that are 23 or so then theyde arguably be a far better side.

It depends on the players obviously (look at Garner) but also the structure. When we build an academy based around a certain way of playing, which is still the old forest way, then its that structure that's just as important. Slotting ino the same role you have played since you were in 'school' as it were, with familer faces and surroundings and staff.

I know, hindsite is a wonderful thing, but id have taken the last decade or so to have got it right with a team of young graduates along with 3 or 5 top quality signings. We have achieved nothing at all, it could only have been better utilising more of them.
 

Our Kids Dad

Alert Team
Staff member
#77
Its hard to judge them on a few games, they are quite inconsistent perhaps, thats where I would admit that 'kids' arent at the level required yet to be in the first team week in week out.

As some of you will know, my folks usually go to most of the kids games and they keep me informed on the exciting ones, Ive really missed the updates, it adds another layer to my club.

Swan is a difficult one to assess. He got in the squad early doors but it feels like the assessment was "nowhere near good enough yet" and he hasnt had a mention by any of us. Sure, he didnt show anything, but what was the reason he was thought good enough in the first place to actually be in the side if he's then totally out of the picture again from a squad that has 3 'old' strikers who have scored half a dozen goals between them in a year?
The reason Swan was brought into the first team set up, was purely due to injuries.

At that point Murray hadn't signed, Grabban was injured & Lyle Taylor has also had a niggly back injury.

The only other striker was Guerrero - who couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo whilst stood next to it.

I've seen Swan play a lot (from being 8 years old) - he's a good prospect, but lacks physicality & game experience - which is what he should get on loan at Ipswich.
 

Our Kids Dad

Alert Team
Staff member
#78
u23's not being as good as league two is a misconception in my opinion. Thats valid if you are playing kids of 16 upwards and not near the first team sure. However if you took the best 6 plus the 6 from the first team that are 23 or so then theyde arguably be a far better side.

It depends on the players obviously (look at Garner) but also the structure. When we build an academy based around a certain way of playing, which is still the old forest way, then its that structure that's just as important. Slotting ino the same role you have played since you were in 'school' as it were, with familer faces and surroundings and staff.

I know, hindsite is a wonderful thing, but id have taken the last decade or so to have got it right with a team of young graduates along with 3 or 5 top quality signings. We have achieved nothing at all, it could only have been better utilising more of them.
What do you think we've been doing?

We've used numerous graduates over the past 10 years - with varying success.

As ever your 'utopian world' arguments are flawed.... the best of these graduates are often sold - with us having little control over that, but importantly it brings money into the club & the academy to reinvest & go again.


The whole point of the u18 & u23 level football is to get youngsters used to playing against more mature players.

The u23s consists of mainly those over 18, but occasionally a few real u18 prospects that may be able to cope physically.

So, by the very nature of u23 football (excluding the overage players being used to get match fitness) - the age range is quite wide - you won't often have more than 50% of a u23 match day squad that are over 20 (especially if you deduct overage players).

Many Cat1 academies enter u23 sides into lower level cup competitions & most get beaten by teams at L1 or L2 level that take the competition seriously.... unless you can prove otherwise, so definitely not a misconception.

With regard to Garner (a graduate of M'Utd academy) - he is 20 in the next week or so. Can you honestly see him breaking in their first team?

Garner is out of contract in June 2022 - he's a player, I'd like to think we could sign (Utd will want a buy back & sell on clause though)!!
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#79
What do you think we've been doing?

We've used numerous graduates over the past 10 years - with varying success.

As ever your 'utopian world' arguments are flawed.... the best of these graduates are often sold - with us having little control over that, but importantly it brings money into the club & the academy to reinvest & go again.


The whole point of the u18 & u23 level football is to get youngsters used to playing against more mature players.

The u23s consists of mainly those over 18, but occasionally a few real u18 prospects that may be able to cope physically.

So, by the very nature of u23 football (excluding the overage players being used to get match fitness) - the age range is quite wide - you won't often have more than 50% of a u23 match day squad that are over 20 (especially if you deduct overage players).

Many Cat1 academies enter u23 sides into lower level cup competitions & most get beaten by teams at L1 or L2 level that take the competition seriously.... unless you can prove otherwise, so definitely not a misconception.

With regard to Garner (a graduate of M'Utd academy) - he is 20 in the next week or so. Can you honestly see him breaking in their first team?

Garner is out of contract in June 2022 - he's a player, I'd like to think we could sign (Utd will want a buy back & sell on clause though)!!
Much of that misses my point tho , that it isnt about the official u23's side who currently are that moixed bag, Im talking about players ages along with a structure of playing throughout the academy for years which means they should be able to slot into a system.

So we should be utilising them more and the age of the team should be far lower than it has been for a number of years, Put your best young prospects in such as BJ and Mighten and Gabriel along with the Yates's and Garners and Worrals.

I simply do not believe that our side this year even with those 3 kids I mention in the side every week would have been worse than we have been, In fact Id be inclined to think wed have been better, but either way it would have continuity and progress and not to mention would save us literally tens of thousands of pounds a week!

Thats another rabbit hole in itself. Freeman, Knocky, Grabs, Taylor, Lolley, Murray, Ameobi. Must be 150k a week? week in week out, even with no crowds and they have given us how many goals? Actually when I look att that list I dont understand how we scored 28 or whatever it is. It hits home really, Id get rid of all those despite some mercurial talents.

If our academy cant produce players that can compete with this dross then thats just poor.
 

paz1967

Vital Champions League
#80
With regard to Garner (a graduate of M'Utd academy) - he is 20 in the next week or so. Can you honestly see him breaking in their first team?
God no. Therefore I could see us sign him.

But at that age maybe he should go out on loan to a league one club for a while eh ;)