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This talented squad has painted over the cracks, I’d have loved Southgate to take us onto another level but he’s just not up to it. We won’t be brave enough to change before the WC, but maybe we should be - or Southgate should stand aside. We might be worse without him but we’re wasting some ridiculous attacking talent by playing defensively when our defence is actually shite! Bringing Maguire on for Saka at 3-0 down is just embarrassing.
 
What an awful result and performance against an average at best side. To be fair, Hungary made it difficult for us and took their chances well, but they are not a good side at all - good at cheating and gamesmanship, certainly too good for us and a very poor referee who made a very easy match to referee, very difficult, but overall, no excuses - simply not good enough. We are in a group at the World Cup with three technically poor/average teams who are going to employ exactly the sort of defensive, negative and underhand tactics that Hungary used tonight and we'll have to do a hell of a lot better.

For me, these four games look very much like a manager who has taken us as far as he can. We started off with a lame defeat away against an average at best Hungary side. We made an average Germany side look good and sneaked a draw with a slightly dodgy pen. We couldn't beat a bunch of Italian kids, whose first team couldn't even qualify for the World Cup. And it culminated with today's shambles and disaster. On that result alone, Southgate should probably be sacked, but on the four games just gone, the cluelessness is a real worry. It's probably too late to do anything before the World Cup and we'll just have to hope that it's a blip and we get out of an easy group and have a good run in the knockout stages, but if we play like tonight in the World Cup, Southgate's days are numbered.
 
The players are knackered after a extended Euros finish, domestic campaign and for many a good run in the European competitions. Understandably they don't want to be there, to play in something which is no more than a glorified friendly.

The prospect of the World Cup finals in November is also a factor.

If we play like that in the September friendlies, yes be worried, but now is not the time to get concerned.

As for the Southgate out brigade? Do me a favour. I seem to remember us doing well in our last tournaments.
 
My two pence on Southgate as someone who goes home and away with England:

He got the job with virtually no worthwhile experience (a Boro relegation and the Under 21's isn't great credentials is it), so it wasn't entirely an inspiring choice - but after Hodgson he did a great job in getting people enjoying the national team again.

From 2016-19 we had a more limited squad compared to now, but we had more of a free rein, during the WC in particular the shackles were off and we went for it largely in most games, and played with an attacking mindset.

What I find baffling is with a largely better pool of players in virtually every area of the pitch, from 2020 onwards (post lockdown) he appears to have gone in on himself and decided to play this turgid 'don't lose' style of football. Both in terms of tempo/intent and formation.

He has turned into a Sven/Capello mark 2, defensive minded football with a talented squad - although I'd argue they were much worse managers. He is undoubtedly better than those who have gone before him, since probably Venables, but it doesn't mean we cannot critique his failings/shortcomings, because everyone before him was terrible.

In both 2018 and 2021, although we did brilliantly to get where we did - and that cannot be taken away from him and should be applauded obviously - I would back virtually any manager (past or hypothetical) to have done what he did, imo it was the bare minimum with the draws we got.

What he has shown, is largely in any games against upper level oppo (bar Germany 21) that we fold, in some cases from winning positions. Belgium twice, Croatia, Italy, Holland.

In 2018 I can forgive losing to Croatia, we had a more limited squad and it was alien territory. But in that 2021 final to be in literally the same position as 3 years before, at Wembley, with a better squad, and to repeat the same tactical naivety, to me shows me he isn't a great manager, and that defeat was firmly on him.

In both games we came out after HT, having been largely positive all half and suddenly shut up shop and played ultra defensive (something I can only put down to his HT team talk/game plan), and even when it was obvious we were absorbing tons of pressure, he only then changes it once both teams score - again a great manager recognises the need to change things and stem the pressure before this happens imo.

He has played off these games as glorified friendlies, but I can tell you now in Porto in 2019 at the finals it didn't feel meaningless, likewise they contribute to qualifying ranking points - and even if you strip that all back he has then called last night a 2nd string virtually - even if so, we shouldn't be losing 4-0 at home to Hungary - this is a manifestation of 2 years of negative football, which imo has also cost us silverware.

Also I have read people saying the players are knackered, were Hungary not too? It's a nonsense argument, in normal times we'd be starting our WC group now, and that excuse wouldn't wash.

He is a fantastic man manager, the players clearly do play for him and like him, and he is a very good statesman, but imo his time has come at the end of this tournament. I would even be tempted to change now, to give us a chance in Qatar, but that just won't happen.
 
I hope this world cup doesn't end up being like the ones in the Sven and Capello era where the media and fans are endlessly looking for trouble.

The last 2 were so enjoyable because everyone just got together and enjoyed the ride. Unfortunately for Southgate and the team there won't be much chance to change the rhetoric before it kicks off in November. Does anyone know if there are gonna be any pre-WC friendlies what with the domestic season only ending a week before?
 
Gills_Horse said:
My two pence on Southgate as someone who goes home and away with England:



Also I have read people saying the players are knackered, were Hungary not too? It's a nonsense argument, in normal times we'd be starting our WC group now, and that excuse wouldn't wash.

He is a fantastic man manager, the players clearly do play for him and like him, and he is a very good statesman, but imo his time has come at the end of this tournament. I would even be tempted to change now, to give us a chance in Qatar, but that just won't happen.
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I hate it when people say the Premier League is the greatest league in the world, because I think it is hype, but one thing I would say it is probaly one of the most intense. I'm unsure what level most of the Hungarian players are playing at, but it is not Premier League level.

I think has Southgate has earnt the right to manage us in Qatar on the basis of his previous record
 
Lozzy-Hove_Gill said:
I hate it when people say the Premier League is the greatest league in the world, because I think it is hype, but one thing I would say it is probaly one of the most intense. I'm unsure what level most of the Hungarian players are playing at, but it is not Premier League level.
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True, but most of the Hungary team started and played the 90 minutes in all four of their Nations League matches in the past 10 days. All of the England players were chopped and changed and afforded a rest. I'd also add that whilst the Prem League is competitive and lots of teams went on to play a lot of games in Europe too, there are very few players in the England who weren't afforded considerable rest over the season. There were very few, if any Liverpool players, who played the most games, featuring in these matches. The Man City players who played in Stones, Sterling, Grealish and Foden spent a lot of time on the bench for both club and country this season, so the fatigue excuse doesn't wash for me. It just wasn't good enough from the players and manager.
 
Gills_Horse said:
My two pence on Southgate as someone who goes home and away with England:

He got the job with virtually no worthwhile experience (a Boro relegation and the Under 21's isn't great credentials is it), so it wasn't entirely an inspiring choice - but after Hodgson he did a great job in getting people enjoying the national team again.

From 2016-19 we had a more limited squad compared to now, but we had more of a free rein, during the WC in particular the shackles were off and we went for it largely in most games, and played with an attacking mindset.

What I find baffling is with a largely better pool of players in virtually every area of the pitch, from 2020 onwards (post lockdown) he appears to have gone in on himself and decided to play this turgid 'don't lose' style of football. Both in terms of tempo/intent and formation.

He has turned into a Sven/Capello mark 2, defensive minded football with a talented squad - although I'd argue they were much worse managers. He is undoubtedly better than those who have gone before him, since probably Venables, but it doesn't mean we cannot critique his failings/shortcomings, because everyone before him was terrible.

In both 2018 and 2021, although we did brilliantly to get where we did - and that cannot be taken away from him and should be applauded obviously - I would back virtually any manager (past or hypothetical) to have done what he did, imo it was the bare minimum with the draws we got.

What he has shown, is largely in any games against upper level oppo (bar Germany 21) that we fold, in some cases from winning positions. Belgium twice, Croatia, Italy, Holland.

In 2018 I can forgive losing to Croatia, we had a more limited squad and it was alien territory. But in that 2021 final to be in literally the same position as 3 years before, at Wembley, with a better squad, and to repeat the same tactical naivety, to me shows me he isn't a great manager, and that defeat was firmly on him.

In both games we came out after HT, having been largely positive all half and suddenly shut up shop and played ultra defensive (something I can only put down to his HT team talk/game plan), and even when it was obvious we were absorbing tons of pressure, he only then changes it once both teams score - again a great manager recognises the need to change things and stem the pressure before this happens imo.

He has played off these games as glorified friendlies, but I can tell you now in Porto in 2019 at the finals it didn't feel meaningless, likewise they contribute to qualifying ranking points - and even if you strip that all back he has then called last night a 2nd string virtually - even if so, we shouldn't be losing 4-0 at home to Hungary - this is a manifestation of 2 years of negative football, which imo has also cost us silverware.

Also I have read people saying the players are knackered, were Hungary not too? It's a nonsense argument, in normal times we'd be starting our WC group now, and that excuse wouldn't wash.

He is a fantastic man manager, the players clearly do play for him and like him, and he is a very good statesman, but imo his time has come at the end of this tournament. I would even be tempted to change now, to give us a chance in Qatar, but that just won't happen.
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Great post. Those calling for Southgate to be hung drawn and quartered are jumping the gun, but equally the apologists for him and his players, with excuses of fatigue and the like, which can equally be levelled at our opponents are equally flawed.

Let's give credit and criticise where due. I've personally generally praised the job Southgate has done. His record speaks for himself - a major final and World Cup semi is the best record of any England manager outside of Ramsay. However, whilst praising him, even at the time of the matches, I've personally been critical of him. Whilst we praise our last WC and Euro runs, we'll never have better chances of winning a tournament and reaching a WC Final. We couldn't have asked for a better draw in the WC and were well on top of a talented, but ageing (and to be brutally honest a far from World beating Croatia team in the WC semis) and Southgate reverted to a negative, hang-on style and it cost us. As GillsHorse rightly says, you can forgive the mistake once, but not twice. And we had a home final match against what, for me, was a fading Italy side, who impressed in the group stages, but reverted to defensive type in the knockout stages and didn't impress, getting lucky against a weak Austria side and being totally outplayed by Spain and sneaking through. We were well on top against them and again, like with \Croatia, we sat back and it cost us. Yes, credit goes to Southgate for getting us beyond where other failures have got us, but it's a dog-eat-dog business at the top and he ultimately costs us opportunities to win a tournament and go further in the WC than we had since 66.

Since then, we qualified fairly easily from a poor WC qualifying group and have had a disastrous run in the Nations League in games where we could and should have picked up 10 points and been going in to the WC build up with a spring in our step, but instead, we look a complete mess.

As I say, we'll be coming up against 3 teams in the WC group with limited ability like Hungary who will make it difficult for us in just the same way, so we'll need to learn lessons quickly.
 
I have seen worse, on my birthday in '53 Hungary beat us 6-3 and we were completely outplayed, a great dissapointment but we recovered and went on to win the world cup thireteen years later.
From memory the result at the time was put down to the fact that the Hungarians had played as a team regularly, played little attention to man marking and ran into open spaces to receive the ball something that was missing from English football.
Of course they also had Puskas, one of the best players I have had the pleasure to see play not once but also in a match in Spain against Blackpool, yes we lost that game as well.
 
I am not a great fan of Southgate generally, but can not see how changing the manager achieves anything.

As usual, the manager takes the heat and players take no blame or responsibility. Saka hooked for Maguire? You can look at that as negative, being a defender replacing a forward, or just as that forward actually playing shite, tired or otherwise, and deserving being hooked.

Facts are that the current World Champions France were eliminated from the Nations League before us and the current Euros champions Italy were walloped 5-0 by a team that had never beaten them in a competitive fixture before. Add to that the recent World number one Belgium being thrashed 4-1 at home by Holland, and you must be able to see how the Nations League is valued.

So if Southgate went, who would replace him? A real top name like Capello, perhaps, who could be so stubborn as to pick someone like Terry, even when he was having a sulkathon about deservedly having the captaincy taken away. That went well, didn't it?

Or perhaps just someone who could release our wonderful attacking talent? The last time we had those type of riches, we just had to play Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes together, even though none of the four was willing to sacrifice themselves and play a holding role to give the team balance?

I am quite optimistic due to the World Cup taking place mid season, when (unlike now) energy levels should be at their peak.
 
We should never had entered this competition, The manager should be able to arrange the preparation for major tournaments as he want's to, not have a circus like this thrust on him. It was painfully obvious most of the players didn't want to be there. It is just a money maker for UEFA and the other FA's. I don't blame Southgate how can you motivate anyone when he and the squad(who should be on holiday) know this tournament is a pointless exercise.
 
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