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moonay

Vital Champions League
#21
Now we just don't know that do we, just like the bad things and cock ups. In unprecedented times, we just don't know.
All the things you mention, as Daleks says, they're what any government (bar Trump's) would have done.

Johnson? ........dithered, and bullshitted.
 

exiled tic

Vital Squad Member
#22
He’s that shit he deserves a mention twice. At least Anderson resigned. I don’t hold Boris responsible for their failings.
What has Anderson got to do with Burnham?Burnhams counterpart in Merseyside is Steve Rotherham,Anderson is Mayor of Liverpool and that is a council appointment not a public election! Different position altogether!!
 

walgarthjohn

Vital 1st Team Regular
#23
All the things you mention, as Daleks says, they're what any government (bar Trump's) would have done.

Johnson? ........dithered, and bullshitted.
No one could have done no better. Just imagine if that idiot Corbin had been in charge. This virus changes every day. All the world leaders have made mistakes. It’s all right say we would have done this done that. But would they. Scots and welsh all done different thing. But now we are all shutting down.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#24
No one could have done no better. .
To see what's happened this year (Johnson shaking hands with patients in hospital back in March), locking down too slowly, opening up too quickly, missing the second wave, doing nowt about the variant stream, screwing up christmas), and to reach that conclusion is .........just beyond me.

Just imagine if that idiot Corbin had been in charge.
Seeing as Starmer has been the LotO from the start of the outbreak, what a puzzling thing to say. Even so, regardless of the man's politics, I honestly can't see how he might have screwed this whole thing up more than we have done.

This virus changes every day. .
Yep.......and they knew it was changing back in September.

It must have been an absolute nightmare for the Government trying to handle this pandemic. However, given lots of the things they've done and said (not Just Johnson), and given the number of delayed decisions, only to be u-turned within days, to try and say that no-one could have done better is simply burying your head in the sand and giving them a get out of jail free card.
 

Jonnysking

Vital Reserves Team
#25
Seeing as Starmer has been the LotO from the start of the outbreak, what a puzzling thing to say.
I don't want to get too involved in this, but I have to point out, Starmer is LotO due to Corbyns failure to win the election, had Jez won the election, it would have been him fucking it up not Starmer or Johnson., so that's why John mentioned it.
Anyway, no matter who was in charge mistakes would have been made and the control of this pandemic would have been very similar.
Some things have been done very well, whilst obviously some not as as good, but no one would have got everything right.
It is the easiest job in the world to be the leader of the opposition, an opposition party member or even just a gobby fucker in opposition to the government on a forum.
It allows you to jump on all the fuck ups, and offer very little if anything in way of help, whilst never mentioning anything that may have been done right.
Its all bollox if you ask me. Now, where has that Brexit thread gone to?
 

Leicslatic

Vital Youth Team
#26
We should be in TOTAL lockdown NOW!! This new strain is vicious, spreading much more easily and soon all parts of the UK will be affected, not just the South East.
 

TRUE BELIEVER

Vital 1st Team Regular
#27
To see what's happened this year (Johnson shaking hands with patients in hospital back in March), locking down too slowly, opening up too quickly, missing the second wave, doing nowt about the variant stream, screwing up christmas), and to reach that conclusion is .........just beyond me.



Seeing as Starmer has been the LotO from the start of the outbreak, what a puzzling thing to say. Even so, regardless of the man's politics, I honestly can't see how he might have screwed this whole thing up more than we have done.



Yep.......and they knew it was changing back in September.

It must have been an absolute nightmare for the Government trying to handle this pandemic. However, given lots of the things they've done and said (not Just Johnson), and given the number of delayed decisions, only to be u-turned within days, to try and say that no-one could have done better is simply burying your head in the sand and giving them a get out of jail free card.
Don't want to get involved in a political argument but I must pick you up one one point.

Yep.......and they knew it was changing back in September.


The variant was identified in late September early October along with a number of other variants. This is common with all viruses and was expected. It was only identified as a cause of concern by the scientists during the last seven days and a study was made the outcome of which was presented to the government on Friday. The government having seen the evidence, which may I say was not available to SKS previously, was acted upon immediately and the tier system altered accordingly.

All of that was confirmed this morning on BBC Breakfast by the lead scientist of the study. There was no dither or delay as you say in this matter. He also stated for the record that it would have been unwise to have acted earlier, as Labour were calling for, as the evidence was not available and could have caused distress if they had increased the lockdown and then been proven wrong. It was prudent to wait for the evidence and not just act on speculation.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#28
I don't want to get too involved in this, but I have to point out, Starmer is LotO due to Corbyns failure to win the election, had Jez won the election, it would have been him fucking it up not Starmer or Johnson., so that's why John mentioned it.
I still don't get the logic of mentioning Corbyn in this context. Regardless, as his first thought might likely have been the safety of the nation, we can only speculate whether or not he'd have handled it better.

Anyway, no matter who was in charge mistakes would have been made and the control of this pandemic would have been very similar.
Some things have been done very well, whilst obviously some not as as good, but no one would have got everything right.
It is the easiest job in the world to be the leader of the opposition, an opposition party member or even just a gobby fucker in opposition to the government on a forum.
I agree ...... mistakes would have been made ........ though maybe not quite as many, not quite as big, and not quite with so much seeming inability to learn from the previous ones.

It's also a fairly easy job to blame everyone else other than take a scintilla of responsibility themselves too.

It allows you to jump on all the fuck ups, and offer very little if anything in way of help, whilst never mentioning anything that may have been done right.
Its all bollox if you ask me.
Corbyn offered help .......... but his "circuit breaker" suggestions weeks before 2nd lockdown was derided by Johnson, and then just last week, when Starmer questioned if it was right to be loosening restrictions over Christmas, he was immediately jumped all over, and accused of wanting to cancel everything. As I said, Johnson has continually tried to treat the whole thing as a personal duel, and then rather than discuss issues, crow about how well he and his chums have managed things .......even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Oh, and I agree yet again ...... it is bollox. (y)

Now, where has that Brexit thread gone to?
Still there. Quite strange to see where we might end up ........ no "easiest deal", no "holding all the cards", no sunlit uplands, ............. just sadness and betrayal. Just like the Buzzcocks song, "Promises", but in a different context. :cry:
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#29
Don't want to get involved in a political argument but I must pick you up one one point.

Yep.......and they knew it was changing back in September.

.
Fair cop there TB. I shouldn't have used September ......... even though it's correct. However, what's beyond doubt is that they knew the seriousness of the situation last week, when Johnson was having a pop at Starmer, accusing him of wanting to cancel Christmas. That was despicable.

The dither and delay has been from the outset, not just re this variant. The problem has been that if Starmer has suggested anything at all, then you knew there was going to be no way that Johnson was going to do it. ........... because he's like that. He couldn't bear to be seen to be giving in to someone like Starmer ........ an oik, a comparative urchin, who simply went to grammar school, as opposed to Eton like BJ and his chums.

It's amazing that folk try and take the piss out of Starmer for his dad, his profession, his knighthood, and even looking after his mum ......... and yet the Bullingdon buffoon is classed as a man of the people. Amazing. (Note TB, this para is a general comment, not in response to your post).
 

Jonnysking

Vital Reserves Team
#30
I still don't get the logic of mentioning Corbyn in this context. Regardless, as his first thought might likely have been the safety of the nation, we can only speculate whether or not he'd have handled it better.



I agree ...... mistakes would have been made ........ though maybe not quite as many, not quite as big, and not quite with so much seeming inability to learn from the previous ones.

It's also a fairly easy job to blame everyone else other than take a scintilla of responsibility themselves too.



Corbyn offered help .......... but his "circuit breaker" suggestions weeks before 2nd lockdown was derided by Johnson, and then just last week, when Starmer questioned if it was right to be loosening restrictions over Christmas, he was immediately jumped all over, and accused of wanting to cancel everything. As I said, Johnson has continually tried to treat the whole thing as a personal duel, and then rather than discuss issues, crow about how well he and his chums have managed things .......even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Oh, and I agree yet again ...... it is bollox. (y)



Still there. Quite strange to see where we might end up ........ no "easiest deal", no "holding all the cards", no sunlit uplands, ............. just sadness and betrayal. Just like the Buzzcocks song, "Promises", but in a different context. :cry:
I have no further comment to make on this topic your honour.
 

TRUE BELIEVER

Vital 1st Team Regular
#31
Fair cop there TB. I shouldn't have used September ......... even though it's correct. However, what's beyond doubt is that they knew the seriousness of the situation last week, when Johnson was having a pop at Starmer, accusing him of wanting to cancel Christmas. That was despicable.

The dither and delay has been from the outset, not just re this variant. The problem has been that if Starmer has suggested anything at all, then you knew there was going to be no way that Johnson was going to do it. ........... because he's like that. He couldn't bear to be seen to be giving in to someone like Starmer ........ an oik, a comparative urchin, who simply went to grammar school, as opposed to Eton like BJ and his chums.

It's amazing that folk try and take the piss out of Starmer for his dad, his profession, his knighthood, and even looking after his mum ......... and yet the Bullingdon buffoon is classed as a man of the people. Amazing. (Note TB, this para is a general comment, not in response to your post).
As I have said I don't want to get into a political debate and have merely picked you up on this point as I believe it is being used to politicise a serious event by both parties.

SKS did not have any evidence at his disposal at PM's questions, the evidence only arrived on Friday as such calling for extra measures was premature. As others have said it is much easier to do this in opposition than in government.

If the government had acted last week and the evidence for it had not surfaced then I am sure you would have been calling for him to answer the question of why he had acted without scientific evidence and ruined everyone's Christmas.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#32
As I have said I don't want to get into a political debate and have merely picked you up on this point as I believe it is being used to politicise a serious event by both parties.

SKS did not have any evidence at his disposal at PM's questions, the evidence only arrived on Friday as such calling for extra measures was premature. As others have said it is much easier to do this in opposition than in government.

If the government had acted last week and the evidence for it had not surfaced then I am sure you would have been calling for him to answer the question of why he had acted without scientific evidence and ruined everyone's Christmas.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
The evidence of rising rates in certain parts of the country was there for all to see last week TB ........ it just wasn't public re the new variant.

Regardless, Starmer didn't call for "extra measures" ........... he just questioned the logic of relaxing what was already in place.

It seems that Starmer is the one who is "Damned if you do and damned if you don't."

;)
 

TRUE BELIEVER

Vital 1st Team Regular
#33
The evidence of rising rates in certain parts of the country was there for all to see last week TB ........ it just wasn't public re the new variant.

Regardless, Starmer didn't call for "extra measures" ........... he just questioned the logic of relaxing what was already in place.

It seems that Starmer is the one who is "Damned if you do and damned if you don't."

;)
The rates have been rising and falling in all parts of the country and under constant review so why question the relaxation now based on evidence that has been available all through the pandemic unless you are wanting to score points in a political debate.

The government were waiting for evidence that the new variant was causing the rise in the South East before making a decision. Seems logical to me to do that instead of jumping to conclusions as has happened on here over the sale of the club so many times.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#34
The rates have been rising and falling in all parts of the country and under constant review so why question the relaxation now based on evidence that has been available all through the pandemic unless you are wanting to score points in a political debate.

The government were waiting for evidence that the new variant was causing the rise in the South East before making a decision. Seems logical to me to do that instead of jumping to conclusions as has happened on here over the sale of the club so many times.
I think you've answered your own question there TB ......................... why the relaxation, knowing it may or may not be supported by the evidence.

I love how every time Starmer either makes a move (have a plan, circuit break, relaxation) he's accused of making a political point, yet when he deliberately tries to avoid that, (abstention), he's still accused of doing the same. It's almost as if Eton can't be seen to be losing to a common grammar school.
 

TRUE BELIEVER

Vital 1st Team Regular
#35
I think you've answered your own question there TB ......................... why the relaxation, knowing it may or may not be supported by the evidence.

I love how every time Starmer either makes a move (have a plan, circuit break, relaxation) he's accused of making a political point, yet when he deliberately tries to avoid that, (abstention), he's still accused of doing the same. It's almost as if Eton can't be seen to be losing to a common grammar school.
I keep saying I don't want to be drawn into a political debate and I am certainly not supporting either side in this as I believe both are guilty of being ready to politicise the debate.

The reasons for the relaxation were made evident when they were released. There was always a recognition from the government and the scientists that it was not a preferred option to relax the rules for Christmas rather that it was a necessary evil to allow people a break from the tedium of lockdown and a chance to see relatives and friends that they hadn't seen for a while. A chance to break some of the mental strain this virus has caused. That was the reason for the relaxation whether the evidence supported it or not is down to your own interpretation.

As I said it is easier in opposition to bring things like circuit breaks and such like into the debate, whereas as a government proposals like that can only be brought into the open when there is the likelihood of them being made policy. Speculation by government leads to problems however the same by the opposition is what is expected.

The reason that people claim that political points are being scored is not that the speculation is there rather that claims are made after a change of policy takes place that it was all due to their pressure. As far as abstaining from a vote goes that is their prerogative however it does beg the question of what they are there for if they cannot support or decline a motion, especially one as important as the health and well being of their constituents. Again this is something that would only be done in opposition, imagine the outcry if the government abstained in a debate.
 

Made in Wigan

Vital Football Hero
#36
To see what's happened this year (Johnson shaking hands with patients in hospital back in March), locking down too slowly, opening up too quickly, missing the second wave, doing nowt about the variant stream, screwing up christmas), and to reach that conclusion is .........just beyond me.



Seeing as Starmer has been the LotO from the start of the outbreak, what a puzzling thing to say. Even so, regardless of the man's politics, I honestly can't see how he might have screwed this whole thing up more than we have done.



Yep.......and they knew it was changing back in September.

It must have been an absolute nightmare for the Government trying to handle this pandemic. However, given lots of the things they've done and said (not Just Johnson), and given the number of delayed decisions, only to be u-turned within days, to try and say that no-one could have done better is simply burying your head in the sand and giving them a get out of jail free card.
Just a couple of points before Zakky has a stroke.

Firstly Corbyn was loto at the start of this - Starmer didn’t take over until April.

Re the mutant strain. Number infected by it in September was tiny. It is only in the last week when infections caused by it has rocketed that concern in the scientific community has been raised. There have been mistakes made, in this country and every country in the world dealing with this pandemic. However you can only act on evidence when is it available and when it does you reassess your response. In response to this strain there is no blame to be levelled at the government for it.

Clearly Christmas plans were a delicate political decision. Scientifically they’ll view it as any other date. However there are many other factors to be taken into consideration by the government not just covid transmission and to just cancel it as Starmer wanted weeks ago would have been the wrong thing to do. It’s shit, our plans have changed as I suspect has as everyone else’s in last few days. Staying away from parents completely now as it isn’t worth the risk of passing anything virus related on. No point moaning about it as it’s affecting the entire world and there’s little I can do about it. Would Starmer have done better, I hardly doubt it, though he probably could have talked to it and bored it to death.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#37
Covid started to take hold in March, Starmer was elected 4th April ......... though granted Corbyn made a complete and utter mess of things while he remained leader. :rolleyes: ............................ you know, the around the time when Johnson was visiting hospitals, and gleefully shaking hands.

As I said to TB, the September date is irrelevant ................ but the government were naive on the extreme last week, with Johnson being far too eager to denounce Starmer for wanting to "cancel christmas".

At every single stage of this, Johnson (and his government) have been out on the timing. Every. Single, Time.
 

TRUE BELIEVER

Vital 1st Team Regular
#38
Covid started to take hold in March, Starmer was elected 4th April ......... though granted Corbyn made a complete and utter mess of things while he remained leader. :rolleyes: ............................ you know, the around the time when Johnson was visiting hospitals, and gleefully shaking hands.

As I said to TB, the September date is irrelevant ................ but the government were naive on the extreme last week, with Johnson being far too eager to denounce Starmer for wanting to "cancel christmas".

At every single stage of this, Johnson (and his government) have been out on the timing. Every. Single, Time.
Not every single time as I have shown in reply to your post about the September date.

Its fine throwing bricks from the side lines however it is a different thing to have to make the decision to throw millions of peoples Christmas plans into confusion. On a number of occasions the timing has been off but much of that can be attributed to the fact that even the scientists cannot agree on things so to basically blame a government dealing with an unprecedented pandemic for everything that goes wrong is simply not justifiable.
 

Nottingham

Vital Squad Member
#39
Now we just don't know that do we, just like the bad things and cock ups. In unprecedented times, we just don't know.
Let's not forget the Tories are using tax payers' money to prop up inefficient private businesses, such as SERCO and their other mates non the City. They are incompetent as well as dishonest.
 

jeffs right

Vital 1st Team Regular
#40
The evidence of rising rates in certain parts of the country was there for all to see last week TB ........ it just wasn't public re the new variant.

Regardless, Starmer didn't call for "extra measures" ........... he just questioned the logic of relaxing what was already in place.

It seems that Starmer is the one who is "Damned if you do and damned if you don't."

;)
Just what any opposition would have done.
This is not Starmer exceptionalism, it is what opposition's do.